A serious look at the Smug/Op nerf - a better solution for 1.11? [long read]

[Ugugg]

+1

 

This was a very good informative read. I like the ideas.

[gaelichero]

Notes from 1.1.1 test server ....

 

"Flechette Round: Now provides 30% armor penetration while active.

K.O.: This ability now knocks the target down for 1.5 seconds.

Shoot First: The damage output of this ability has been decreased by approximately 20% to control burst damage and because it was enabling significantly faster than intended kills in PvP."

 

Is "significantly faster" clear enough for you deniers or do you need the swtor team to provide you with a youtube video proving it?

 

 

Nerf all damage from every classes stun and snare abilities. Remove all damage from interrupt abilities. Render useless non-pvp stims from WF pvp ... keep them in world pvp. Fix the 30% insta heal exploit (tough if you dont' know it). Give everybody passive stealth detection that they have to sink skill points into.

[Raice]

Notes from 1.1.1 test server ....

 

"Flechette Round: Now provides 30% armor penetration while active.

K.O.: This ability now knocks the target down for 1.5 seconds.

Shoot First: The damage output of this ability has been decreased by approximately 20% to control burst damage and because it was enabling significantly faster than intended kills in PvP."

 

Is "significantly faster" clear enough for you deniers or do you need the swtor team to provide you with a youtube video proving it?

 

 

Nerf all damage from every classes stun and snare abilities. Remove all damage from interrupt abilities. Render useless non-pvp stims from WF pvp ... keep them in world pvp. Fix the 30% insta heal exploit (tough if you dont' know it). Give everybody passive stealth detection that they have to sink skill points into.

 

My solution is easier and better than Bioware's AND yours. But nevermind that. Here's a question for you:

 

How exactly does reducing our Critical Damage NOT result in slower kills?

 

I'd love for someone to answer this question for me.

[Raice]

Updated with a TL;DR version for your viewing pleasure.

[grandmasterub]

isn't nerfing your armor penetration less of a nerf than nerfing your crit damage?

 

nerfing crit damage hurts you vs all classes. nerfing armor pen only hurts you vs tanks.

[Raice]

isn't nerfing your armor penetration less of a nerf than nerfing your crit damage?

 

nerfing crit damage hurts you vs all classes. nerfing armor pen only hurts you vs tanks.

 

Ehhh... yes and no.

 

Nerfing the Armor Penetratrion WILL (realistically) only affect us toward Tanks. With Classes that wear Medium and Light Amor, reducing the AP will not have as dramatic an affect. However, that's part of the problem - THESE are the classes we are most often killing so quickly. How do I know this?

 

1. Because there are simply more OF them TO kill - specifically Sorcs/Sages.

2. Because the issue will Tanks is not in our ability to produce damage, but in their inability to gear themselves properly. Let's look at this a little closer:

 

When I say [gear] I don't necessarily mean [Gear]. [Gear] is talking about Champion/Battlemaster sets that apply Expertise. This is altogether a completely different issue.

 

When I say [gear] I am speaking about any assortment of equipment that the Tank may be wearing that may or may not have an applied Expertise Bonus.

 

It boils down to Shield Rating. All Tanks have the ability to use a Shield. All of them. If they are using a Shield Generator which gives them bonuses to Shield Rating, and they are geared with Absorption and Shield Rating bonuses... they can and do effectively defend against the onslaught of the Scrapper/Concealment. If they are not using a Shield Generator, then they are not protected against our Burst Rotation. They HAVE to have the Shield Generator, or their Absorption and Shield Rating aren't even a factor. They HAVE to stack these bonuses, or their Shield Generator simply won't defend against our Crit Rating and our Critical Damage enough to not be slain.

 

Now, in the event that the Tank is geared properly... we probably aren't going to kill them unless we have an assortment of tactical advantages. This sort of scenario does actually happen a lot. In which case, our Base Damage must be present. Since their Heavy Armor reduces our Base Damage by a large margin - we must have the Armor Penetration. You have to understand, if our Base Damage is 50, then it's going to be mitigated no matter what. Armor Penetration helps reduce the effectiveness of the Armor.... for only 15s - which is a unit of time, which means it is part of our Burst Rotation. Outside of the Burst Rotation.... we are literally screwed.

 

Sorcers/Sages also have "bubbles" that sort of function like Shields. But they only last a certain amount of time, and they absorb ALL damage, and they dissipate after a certain amount of damage has been dealt. If a Scrapper/Concealment catches a Sorc/Sage without their bubble... these guys are toast. This happens all the time. So, because they wear Light Armor, and because they have a relatively unreliable Shield System.... the Armor Penetration is completely wasted on them. We don't have Armor Penetration for them - that's for the Tanks. We have the 3s Stun for the Medium/Light Armor guys. I've already spoken in the AP why we have the 3s stun, and why you cannot get rid of it.

 

So yes - while reducing our AP WILL only realistically affect our utility vs a Tank, it does NOT address the bigger picture; which is why they nerfed the Stun. However, this is creating more problems than it is fixing. All of the problems that this nerf would create could be avoided, while simultaneously fixing the balance issues, by simply nerfing our Critical Damage ouput from Underdog.

[hakkafusion]

good, better than most others I read +1

 

I dont play operative. my main is sniper. and we almost have no chance against operatives 1v1 if they open on you first.

[FearNight]

Thanks for the write up. I support everything you propose. 1.1.1 is the end of Operative/Scoundrel if it's released as is. Edited January 30, 2012 by FearNight

[Raice]

Thanks for the write up. I support everything you propose. 1.1.1 is the end of Operative/Scoundrel if it's released as is.

 

I know what you mean, man. My heart literally sank when I read the Patch Notes. It's not the fact that we were getting nerfed. Nerfs happen - I can live with them. What got me was the fact that the nerf was giving into EXACTLY what the community complained about, and it didn't even bother to look into the issue deeper to see what was actually causing the problems.

 

I immediately had flashbacks of SWG all over again. I cannot allow the devs to start making ridiculous mistakes like this without trying to get them to reason. They are smarter than this.

 

On top of that, what gets me even more is how shallow this community has mostly been toward this write up.

 

If you die too fast in 3s... then the objective is to reduce the speed in which we kill. Taking away a Stun isn't going to stop us from achieving the 4-5 GCD's we need to destroy you. Once the first two attacks are off, there is nothing you can do to stop us. If they reduce a 3s Stun for a reason like this, then they are deducing that ALL Stuns are creating the same problems. Clearly, they aren't.

 

I just don't understand this. That's all I can say. I can't help that I am bothered by how little thought went into this nerf and by how little thought went into the complaints.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Raice

[DiluculoVoX]

Id like it to be known that Me and my guild support a better solution to the 1.1.1 patch's nerf of the OP/Scoundrel.

 

 

The Durasteel Desperados of Ajunta Pall are outraged for our members that are being nerfed improperly.

 

The pendulum always swings too far when radical nerfs are applied based on "majority" hate. I only ask that the developers tread carefully and nerf gently, until a happy medium is met.

 

 

Edit:

 

I've played some games in the past that had a system that provided diminishing returns on critical rating and severity, I haven't tested completely for swtor but skill tree buffs don't seem to diminish for individuals with already high crit/surge rating. Though this involves more complicated mathematical systems in the game, if the crit damage buffs in the skill trees were more potent for people with naturally low crit ratings, and less so for those with very high crit we may see a balance occur.

 

I think secondary attributes - alacrity - surge - power, ect do have diminishing returns however? At least in the sense that stacking them past a point returns very little added effect in return.

Edited January 30, 2012 by DiluculoVoX

[Raice]

Id like it to be known that Me and my guild support a better solution to the 1.1.1 patch's nerf of the OP/Scoundrel.

 

 

The Durasteel Desperados of Ajunta Pall are outraged for our members that are being nerfed improperly.

 

The pendulum always swings too far when radical nerfs are applied based on "majority" hate. I only ask that the developers tread carefully and nerf gently, until a happy medium is met.

 

 

Edit:

 

I've played some games in the past that had a system that provided diminishing returns on critical rating and severity, I haven't tested completely for swtor but skill tree buffs don't seem to diminish for individuals with already high crit/surge rating. Though this involves more complicated mathematical systems in the game, if the crit damage buffs in the skill trees were more potent for people with naturally low crit ratings, and less so for those with very high crit we may see a balance occur.

 

I think secondary attributes - alacrity - surge - power, ect do have diminishing returns however? At least in the sense that stacking them past a point returns very little added effect in return.

 

I think, and I'm not sure, that you are correct on the diminishing returns notion. If Armor Value has a max of 75%, then it would seem logical that the other systems in the game have a similar Max Threshold to consider.

 

It might just be that reducing the Critical Damage is the wrong way to do this. Maybe the other classes DO need a buff. I'd be willing to settle for that. I'd rather them OP another class than break any of them. I can't be sure, and the only people with the proper equipment to test this is Bioware.

 

All I know is, 1.1.1 is fubar for Scrapper/Concealment. And if nerfs are coming our way, I'd rather have something like my proposal than what we are being given. 1.1.1 just doesn't make any sense, any way you cut it. It just doesn't.

 

Good post.

[DragonAgeOrgins]

I can't wait till they nerf this OP class.

[Raice]

I can't wait till they nerf this OP class.

 

Great! I'm glad I found you. There is a line already forming for people who think just like you. It starts here:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=227273

[DragonAgeOrgins]

Great! I'm glad I found you. There is a line already forming for people who think just like you. It starts here:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=227273

 

I read the front post in it you couldn't detail why you shouldn't get a nerf. I know you are used to killing people quite easily and maybe the reasoning you give could be logical in a sense. I could make up a grand argument though if Bioware was going to nerf my class. It's the fact that you play the class that's why you don't want a nerf.

 

Would you show the same passion and defense if it was another class? I don't know. They already have placed this set to be in the nerf. I don't know the exact science behind the method but I understand that class isn't glad to be nerfed and would do anything to stop from it.

 

Would nerfing that class really do that much damage to you personally. I have played that class and as a low level I was easily taking down levels in their mid 40's from a good distance. The source at least have to wait untill later level's for the good spells. (mid late 20's,30)

[Raice]

I read the front post in it you couldn't detail why you shouldn't get a nerf. I know you are used to killing people quite easily and maybe the reasoning you give could be logical in a sense. I could make up a grand argument though if Bioware was going to nerf my class. It's the fact that you play the class that's why you don't want a nerf.

 

Would you show the same passion and defense if it was another class? I don't know. They already have placed this set to be in the nerf. I don't know the exact science behind the method but I understand that class isn't glad to be nerfed and would do anything to stop from it.

 

Would nerfing that class really do that much damage to you personally. I have played that class and as a low level I was easily taking down levels in their mid 40's from a good distance. The source at least have to wait untill later level's for the good spells. (mid late 20's,30)

 

Here:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=227273

 

All the questions you asked are answered in that link. You should read it. It explains everything you need to know about why 1.1.1 is wrong for Scrapper/Concealment.

 

If the answers you're looking for aren't there - then you should read it again, because they are there. If you still can't find them - then you aren't reading it. If you continue to proclaim that you have read it, and you still can't find them - then you should try this thread instead:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=227273

 

The answers you want are DEFINITELY in that one.

 

If all else fails, you could just try to come to the conclusion that you might have a biased opinion on this issue, and are ignoring facts that compromise your opinion. It's okay, lots of people suffer from this. Here's a thread that can help:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=227273

[DragonAgeOrgins]

Here:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=227273

 

All the questions you asked are answered in that link. You should read it. It explains everything you need to know about why 1.1.1 is wrong for Scrapper/Concealment.

 

If the answers you're looking for aren't there - then you should read it again, because they are there. If you still can't find them - then you aren't reading it. If you continue to proclaim that you have read it, and you still can't find them - then you should try this thread instead:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=227273

 

The answers you want are DEFINITELY in that one.

 

If all else fails, you could just try to come to the conclusion that you might have a biased opinion on this issue, and are ignoring facts that compromise your opinion. It's okay, lots of people suffer from this. Here's a thread that can help:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=227273

 

Would it be fair to say that you have a biased opinion since you play this class?

[Raice]

I read the front post in it you couldn't detail why you shouldn't get a nerf. I know you are used to killing people quite easily and maybe the reasoning you give could be logical in a sense. I could make up a grand argument though if Bioware was going to nerf my class. It's the fact that you play the class that's why you don't want a nerf.

 

Would you show the same passion and defense if it was another class? I don't know. They already have placed this set to be in the nerf. I don't know the exact science behind the method but I understand that class isn't glad to be nerfed and would do anything to stop from it.

 

Would nerfing that class really do that much damage to you personally. I have played that class and as a low level I was easily taking down levels in their mid 40's from a good distance. The source at least have to wait untill later level's for the good spells. (mid late 20's,30)

 

By the way, this is either a lie, or you clearly do not understand anything.

 

1. You can't have the proper build you need to experience this Tree until lvl 40 at a minimum. You get Skill Points at 10, 1 per level. It takes 31 Skill Points to even get Flechette Round. That's level 40. You have no concept of how these skills work, and why they are important. Here's a thread that will help you understand why these Skills are important:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=227273

 

2. Scrapper/Concealment is not a ranged class. It's a melee class.

 

3. If you were "owning people at range" that were level 40's at an early level... you were probably playing Dirty Fighting. That is an entirely separate Tree than Scrapper/Concealment. This thread does not address Dirty Fighting, because it was not nerfed, and has nothing to do with 1.1.1. Here's a thread that explains what 1.1.1 had to do with:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=227273

 

Thanks for your comments.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Raice

[Raice]

Would it be fair to say that you have a biased opinion since you play this class?

 

It would be fair to say that I have provided you with facts that show why 1.1.1 is not correct.

 

EDIT::

 

But in the spirit of good fun, answer this question for me please:

 

How exactly do you expect to kill me if you reduce my 3s Stun to 1.5s?

 

If it takes me roughly 4-6 GCD's to do everything I need to do to kill you, and it takes you more, by virtue of the fact that we are "killing faster than intended" - how does reducing a 3s Stun fix this problem?

 

Sincerely - I'm interested in your answer.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Raice

[DragonAgeOrgins]

It would be fair to say that I have provided you with facts that show why 1.1.1 is not correct.

 

You ignored my question. I believe it is correct and I think the dev's so agree with me on this issue. Either they are going to throw the brakes down on the train "One day" before patch and throw the train off the tracks all for the sake of your thread

 

or they will allow the patch to continue as planned. I pick plan B. Logically speaking you are biased. You spent a great deal of information and even in your own thread you write and I quote.

 

1.1.1 sucks for everyone:

 

This nerf does more harm than you think it does. Yes - it will drastically reduce the Scrapper/Concealer's ability to "win". But in all the wrong ways. Do we need a nerf? I personally say "no", but I won't be going into "why". Regardless, the fact is, I'm getting a nerf anyway. I can live with that. But let's be smart and fair about this.

 

 

End quote

[Raice]

You ignored my question. I believe it is correct and I think the dev's so agree with me on this issue. Either they are going to throw the brakes down on the train "One day" before patch and throw the train off the tracks all for the sake of your thread

 

or they will allow the patch to continue as planned. I pick plan B. Logically speaking you are biased. You spent a great deal of information and even in your own thread you write and I quote.

 

1.1.1 sucks for everyone:

 

This nerf does more harm than you think it does. Yes - it will drastically reduce the Scrapper/Concealer's ability to "win". But in all the wrong ways. Do we need a nerf? I personally say "no", but I won't be going into "why". Regardless, the fact is, I'm getting a nerf anyway. I can live with that. But let's be smart and fair about this.

 

 

End quote

 

If I was conflicted with bias - I wouldn't have bothered offering a different nerf solution. I would have left it with that.

 

The bigger problem is the Expertise, the Gear, the Relics, and Biochem. If they really wanted to crack down on game balance, they would have solved those first, tested them, and then moved on to individual Classes. They skipped all of that and went directly into Class Nerfs.

 

That argument (while 100% true, and everyone knows it) doesn't change the fact that we are getting nerfed. I'm fine with a nerf. What I'm not fine with, is breaking stuff that has nothing to do with the problem.

 

My proposition is still a substantial nerf. It still "breaks the Class." What it doesn't do, is break a million other things that have nothing to do with the problem.

 

Thanks for the comments.

 

 

EDIT::

 

Also, I didn't ignore your question. I just gave you an answer that you didn't like. Sorry.

 

Thanks for the comments.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Raice

[DiluculoVoX]

I could make up a grand argument though if Bioware was going to nerf my class. It's the fact that you play the class that's why you don't want a nerf.

 

Would you show the same passion and defense if it was another class? I don't know. 20's,30)

 

 

 

I do not have an OP/scound and I feel fine and passionate about preventing this chop shop nerf from being done the way it's currently intended to be. Frankly it's a matter of experience, I can see a stinker of a nerf a mile away. Acid blade is really the only thing that lets these classes come close to taking on heavy armor tanks, and me personally, I rarely get jumped because I spam stealth scanners like crazy and generate a lot of aoe. If I know it's coming i can take preventive measures and avoid the initial strike all together at which point the OP/scound has virtually no chance of dealing with me without the appropriate bursts of damage.

 

This nerf will make me scoff at their alpha attacks, I'm a bounty hunter that would simply cast them aside like a puff of smoke if they attacked me and couldn't do real damage in their first attacks.

[scofal]

An idea I've been kicking around would go like this:

 

Since nerfing our burst damage and the ability to kill a target really quick (which I why I rolled this class in the first place)

 

Bioware seems to want us to to get into long dragged-out fights, but there are a couple problems.

 

1. Since we are now getting drawn into knock-down, dragged out fights, let one of the higher abilities of the scrapper/concealment tree learn heavy armor, so at least we can melee/tank a little better.

 

2. Cool downs since after a serious burst I have to wait to attack again - reduce the cool-down periods of my attacks.

 

3. After a burst we spend a lot of energy, so since my target may not be dead and now I have to worry about him plus his buddies behind me - reduce energy cost or spells.

 

What do you think?

Edited February 1, 2012 by scofal

[ExiledOne]

I love how they nerfed our burst to keep us into fighting longer, but kept the energy requirements on all abilities the same.

 

Thus resulting us running out of energy about 2x to 2.5x as fast.

 

Guess I better level my juggernaut, at least her viability in pve hasn't been screwed by trying to balance pvp and failing.

 

No seriously, I'm struggling to do 50 dailies toget my gear so I stop sucking so bad, why the hell would a company balance something around max level, max gear, when only a small percentage even have that, it's completely mind boggling...., well no it's not, they have no idea what they're doing.

[Skurkanas]

@OP; make Kyrandis solution your primary one, please.

 

Nerfing our surge might be a sensible solution for PvP, but, again, it would hurt PvE far more than intended.

 

This whole issue isn't so much about PvP nerfing, it's about balance for a whole class.

You don't balance something by reducing it's damage across the board (which is what they did, and which is what you are proposing.)

If we were to agree that the burst classes in this game shouldn't do so much burst (duh, but I won't get into that), we need something to compensate. Preferrably, sustained damage, which 15% surge would accomplish nicely

Edited February 2, 2012 by Skurkanas

[jesterbard]

I'm sure this devolved into a cryfest between people who are bad at math and people who have too much free time, but the initial post is absolutely right. If Bioware wants people to continue playing their game, they need to get better at fixing balance issues.