A serious look at the Smug/Op nerf - a better solution for 1.11? [long read]

[Wolfsfable]

congradulations. I tried it endgame and it is NOT energy efficient. You spend a lot of time auto attacking rather than dropping an energy regen rate to pull off your shiv. You JUST SAID you're a sniper, so now you're the authority on how it works for Ops? I'm not going to sit here and try and tell you how to play your class, I'm sure you know an infinite amount more about snipers than I ever will.

 

Lemme guess you tried it for half a run through a HM right? Yes there are some auto attacks in there even with a snipers rotation BUT combined with the 2 DOT's you have on a target at any given time your DPS is sustained and not to shabby. You should be able to Cull twice in 18 seconds by time you have to reapply dart/nade. Try to keep your energy above 50% while you work out your rotation and try to remember you cant kill a boss in 3 hits. I know that will be hard for you. Poor thing.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Wolfsfable

[WorkForFood]

OP,

 

Thanks for this thread. I agree that the nerf bat is coming. I found your arguements pretty sound. Couple thoughs on the upcoming changes as they stand right now.

 

* Shoot First: K.O - I've spec'd out of it recently. The 3 seconds of knock down doesn't provide a worthwhile return considering it fills a resolve bar.

 

* Shoot First: -20% damage - I do not think this serves any purpose. I don't know if the armour pen of fletchette round is applied before it hits but overall the damage that happens after eclipses this opener.

 

* Fletchette Round - I'd like the 50% armour pen to stay. In PvP it doesn't effect me that much as Heavy Armour targets are last on my to kill list. But in PvE I need that 50% armour pen to bring my dps up to competitive levels with other dps classes.

 

I really like your idea of changing the +30% crit damage for our openers/Scattergun attacks into a blanket 5/10/15% crit damage for all attacks. It would address the burst of our opening salvo which people seem concerned about and also provide us with a little more damage out of stealth which would help us be less of a 1 trick pony.

 

Anyways keep replying to this people. Can't complain about changes unless you don't try and provide alternatives.

 

WorkForFood

[ExiledOne]

Lemme guess you tried it for half a run through a HM right? Yes there are some auto attacks in there even with a snipers rotation BUT combined with the 2 DOT's you have on a target at any given time your DPS is sustained and not to shabby. You should be able to Cull twice in 18 seconds by time you have to reapply dart/nade. Try to keep your energy above 50% while you work out your rotation and try to remember you cant kill a boss in 3 hits. I know that will be hard for you. Poor thing.

 

We couldn't kill a boss in three hits before, another shining example of someone who doesn't play a class going off what others say a class does.

Nevermind that said class has never done that, and in PvP hasn't done it since they put in 1.1.

 

Seriously all these people whining about 5k crits, what armor do you wear, how much is your MAX HP? I have yet to see an operative "3 hit stun kill" anyone who isn't already at 60% or less life.

[NorthernLights]

Lemme guess you tried it for half a run through a HM right? Yes there are some auto attacks in there even with a snipers rotation BUT combined with the 2 DOT's you have on a target at any given time your DPS is sustained and not to shabby. You should be able to Cull twice in 18 seconds by time you have to reapply dart/nade. Try to keep your energy above 50% while you work out your rotation and try to remember you cant kill a boss in 3 hits. I know that will be hard for you. Poor thing.

 

I tried being reasonable but I guess trolls will forever be trolls. This is why I usual ignore when a class is trying to tell another class how to play. And no, I tried it for a full clear of EV/Karagga's HM recently, so yeah. If you bothered to look all over the Op forums, MANY people have all said the same thing about it. Extremely energy heavy since theres no way to get a TA minus shiv, unless you do the hybrid thing a lot of people are doing now with KP's instead of getting weakening blast. It's not the worst spec in the world to go, and for some boss fights its without a doubt better than concealment, like bonethrasher or w/e because you spend a lot of the time running around/avoiding a 270 degree cleave.

Edited January 24, 2012 by NorthernLights

[Wolfsfable]

I tried being reasonable but I guess trolls will forever be trolls. This is why I usual ignore when a class is trying to tell another class how to play. And no, I tried it for a full clear of EV/Karagga's HM recently, so yeah. If you bothered to look all over the Op forums, MANY people have all said the same thing about it. Extremely energy heavy since theres no way to get a TA minus shiv, unless you do the hybrid thing a lot of people are doing now with KP's instead of getting weakening blast. It's not the worst spec in the world to go, and for some boss fights its without a doubt better than concealment, like bonethrasher or w/e because you spend a lot of the time running around/avoiding a 270 degree cleave.

 

OO what do you know guess what skills I dont have in the Lethality tree! And even snipers get to run around in most boss fights thats why I find Markmenship completely useless.

 

My whole point is there are options for OPS and sustainable DPS it is doable. If you are good you will adapt.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Wolfsfable

[Poirot]

OP you are my forum hero. Hell if they want to even push it a little further and remove Shoot First/Hidden Strike from Element of Surprise/Concealed Attacks (or even just lower the benefit) that wouldn't bother me either.

 

I completely agree that the class is currently capable of too much of an alpha burst, that's patently obvious to both us (the class users) and everyone else (the so called victims). It just baffles me that Bioware is missing such a plain answer when its staring them right in their faces (didn't they design these talents in the first place?) you would think they understood the synergies within the tree.

 

Instead Bioware cops out and takes the laziest most ridiculous route in nerfing the class, and you put it brilliantly the approach they are taking is literally castrating the class and not just in PVP but in PVE as well (thanks to the severe nerf to Acid Blade/Flechette round).

 

You know what this reminds me of, Ret Paladins in WoW, it's the exact same BS that took place with early BC CS/DS/Judgement burst and Bio is taking the exact same lazy band-aid cop out way of just nerfing stuff without understanding the underlying causality behind the problem. You know what's gonna end up happening? The same thing that happened to Ret Pallies in early BC, going from burst gods to rerolling Holy because the class ceases to be viable. Seriously disappointed in Bioware with the way they are handling this when people like the OP are capable of finding viable solutions to the problem without having to chop the legs off the entire spec.

[Wolfsfable]

We couldn't kill a boss in three hits before, another shining example of someone who doesn't play a class going off what others say a class does.

Nevermind that said class has never done that, and in PvP hasn't done it since they put in 1.1.

 

Seriously all these people whining about 5k crits, what armor do you wear, how much is your MAX HP? I have yet to see an operative "3 hit stun kill" anyone who isn't already at 60% or less life.

 

The whole point behind my statement is that people think burst = sustainable.

 

They dont get the whole tortise beats the hare arguement. They think because they are not pissing damage for 10 mins straight thier sustained damage sucks. Its like they see a 5K crit and thats the only thing in the world. Anything less that spamming 5K crits is unacceptable.

 

lrn2play

Edited January 24, 2012 by Wolfsfable

[NorthernLights]

OO what do you know guess what skills I dont have in the Lethality tree! And even snipers get to run around in most boss fights thats why I find Markmenship completely useless.

 

My whole point is there are options for OPS and sustainable DPS it is doable. If you are good you will adapt.

 

With your logic, people should have adapted to the game at release, and just "adapted" to the damage ops were doing. I'm sure everyone here will wholeheartedly agree with that statement right?

Edited January 24, 2012 by NorthernLights

[Wolfsfable]

With your logic, people should have adapted to the game at release, and just "lived" with the damage ops were doing. I'm sure everyone here will wholeheartedly agree with that statement right?

 

Well we are all still playing even though OPS is currently OP arent we?

[NorthernLights]

Well we are all still playing even though OPS is currently OP arent we?

 

Having to change a class because a lot of people thought they were overpowered is like the definition of NOT adapting.

[Crowleyz]

Well according to this guy, the class was just fine. If they killed people without them being able to fight back WITHOUT the insane buffs, then so what? Apparently that is completely within acceptable limits that players should be killed 1v1 without the slightest chance of fighting back.

 

Great post sir, truly extraordinary reasoning and logic.

I salute you.

 

Oh and by the way, how many hours have you logged with the post-balanced Operative/Smuggler that might back up your claims of the class being completely useless? Huh, none? Ok then, get back to us when you've actually tried it for a while.

 

 

And yes, I did not read the wall of text, cuz goddamnit people need to learn to get their point across without resorting to essays.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Crowleyz

[Wolfsfable]

Having to change a class because a lot of people thought they were overpowered is like the definition of NOT adapting.

 

People have adapted the best they could given the situation. You dont see servers full of OPS/Scoundrels do ya? Thats adapting. People choosing intentionally not to play an OP class even though they know they will get facerolled is adapting. People not leaving WZ's because they are getting facerolled by 4 OPS/Scoundrels on the other team is adapting.

 

But now the band is calling for payment. You've had your fun in the sun now its time to fall in line. Now its your turn to adapt.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Wolfsfable

[Lagmonster]

OP you are my forum hero. Hell if they want to even push it a little further and remove Shoot First/Hidden Strike from Element of Surprise/Concealed Attacks (or even just lower the benefit) that wouldn't bother me either.

 

I completely agree that the class is currently capable of too much of an alpha burst, that's patently obvious to both us (the class users) and everyone else (the so called victims). It just baffles me that Bioware is missing such a plain answer when its staring them right in their faces (didn't they design these talents in the first place?) you would think they understood the synergies within the tree.

 

Instead Bioware cops out and takes the laziest most ridiculous route in nerfing the class, and you put it brilliantly the approach they are taking is literally castrating the class and not just in PVP but in PVE as well (thanks to the severe nerf to Acid Blade/Flechette round).

 

You know what this reminds me of, Ret Paladins in WoW, it's the exact same BS that took place with early BC CS/DS/Judgement burst and Bio is taking the exact same lazy band-aid cop out way of just nerfing stuff without understanding the underlying causality behind the problem. You know what's gonna end up happening? The same thing that happened to Ret Pallies in early BC, going from burst gods to rerolling Holy because the class ceases to be viable. Seriously disappointed in Bioware with the way they are handling this when people like the OP are capable of finding viable solutions to the problem without having to chop the legs off the entire spec.

 

 

His idea of just gutting the crit damage bonus for ALL the attacks would castrate the class far far more then biowares proposed changes. Just because someone writes up a 10 page essay doesn’t mean his ideas are great ones.

[AndiusTheGreat]

Well said ^^ long, to much colours for my taste, but i agree with all that

 

I'm afraid, that it doesn't matter. Whatever we say and whatever constructive suggestion we make the nerf will be.

 

The only hope is to wait until they realize that the nerf made the least played class in game practically non existent

 

Well said. When I logged on to my scoundrel this morning I was the only scoundrel in online in my guild out of 10-15 people. I am retiring my scoundrel from PVP because of this nerf. Even if he wasn't retired, hes a healer. I am simply retiring him because I don't want to get 60 valor on a class that cannot effectively DPS outside PVP, OR inside it now that this nerf is coming. Now keep in mind my server is RP-PVP and stealth classes tend to have higher populations on open world PVP servers.

 

This class is going to decimate their already low population. Here's one level 50 scoundrel who will no longer be in warzones. I intend to keep it that way until the sages/sorcerers are finished having their way with all of you that begged for this nerf.

Edited January 24, 2012 by AndiusTheGreat

[GrinNfool]

dude...you are not an objective third party to this discussion your facing the reality of a change to your class and it frightens you. Not even going to lie I didn't read your post almost at all except for the portions where it used red text. However you regularly refer to it as your own class, this points to an emotional investment with the class. Like another poster has said I will trust the designers of the game with decisions on how they want their world to run. Like they say they never intended for your class to do what it is doing so they changed it as they saw fit to fall in line with the numbers they were looking for. If I could say anything with a change this large you should get a free respec at least but other than that I'm going to say that I trust the devs to make the call this early on in the games life.

 

Agreed let us place our complete trust in our lord and savior bioware, for before them we are all morons, and they know best. Praise be to bioware! I put in a ticket to have Georg bless my baby due in 4 months, I feel if he isn't blessed by bioware he will live a life of ridicule and sadness.

[thecoffeecup]

People have adapted the best they could given the situation. You dont see servers full of OPS/Scoundrels do ya? Thats adapting. People choosing intentionally not to play an OP class even though they know they will get facerolled is adapting. People not leaving WZ's because they are getting facerolled by 4 OPS/Scoundrels on the other team is adapting.

 

But now the band is calling for payment. You've had your fun in the sun now its time to fall in line. Now its your turn to adapt.

You don't get a balanced game by thinking in terms of revenge. You may please a certain part of the player population and anger another and decide it's worth it if the former population is much larger than the latter. But it's hardly fair and healthy for the game.

 

Scoundrels and operatives are not overplayed on the servers I've seen (PvE servers, and last I checked there were 47 people in my zone and I was the only scoundrel), and actually the class has a bad reputation. See the healer comparison threads and you are recommended rolling a sage/sorc in most cases. See the threads about PvE dps and you are recommended rolling a ranged class, and if you must roll melee, pick a sentinel or marauder. Yeah people write all kinds of things. But it's the same here as it was with the burst damage threads: a lot is just opinion and whining, but there's a certain amount of truth to it.

 

You have chosen to ignore the negative aspects of the class and focus solely on the burst, rejoicing when that gets removed and no other concerns are addressed.

Edited January 24, 2012 by thecoffeecup

[Wolfsfable]

You don't get a balanced game by thinking in terms of revenge. You may please a certain part of the player population and anger another and decide it's worth it if the former population is much larger than the latter. But it's hardly fair and healthy for the game.

 

Scoundrels and operatives are not overplayed on the servers I've seen (PvE servers, and last I checked there were 47 people in my zone and I was the only scoundrel), and actually the class has a bad reputation. See the healer comparison threads and you are recommended rolling a sage/sorc in most cases. See the threads about PvE dps and you are recommended rolling a ranged class, and if you must roll melee, pick a sentinel or marauder. Yeah people write all kinds of things. But it's the same here as it was with the burst damage threads: a lot is just opinion and whining, but there's a certain amount of truth to it.

 

You have chosen to ignore the negative aspects of the class and focus solely on the burst, rejoicing when that gets removed and no other concerns are addressed.

 

They will be addressed in time just like everything else. That I can guarantee

[GrinNfool]

You don't get a balanced game by thinking in terms of revenge. You may please a certain part of the player population and anger another and decide it's worth it if the former population is much larger than the latter. But it's hardly fair and healthy for the game.

 

Scoundrels and operatives are not overplayed on the servers I've seen (PvE servers, and last I checked there were 47 people in my zone and I was the only scoundrel), and actually the class has a bad reputation. See the healer comparison threads and you are recommended rolling a sage/sorc in most cases. See the threads about PvE dps and you are recommended rolling a ranged class, and if you must roll melee, pick a sentinel or marauder. Yeah people write all kinds of things. But it's the same here as it was with the burst damage threads: a lot is just opinion and whining, but there's a certain amount of truth to it.

 

You have chosen to ignore the negative aspects of the class and focus solely on the burst, rejoicing when that gets removed and no other concerns are addressed.

 

You should stop replying to wolfs, he is a pretty known troll look at his post history, he takes an extreme stance on everything, there is no middle ground.

[Wolfsfable]

You should stop replying to wolfs, he is a pretty known troll look at his post history, he takes an extreme stance on everything, there is no middle ground.

 

I have no sympathy for an overpowered class I will not deny this. And I dont need a middle ground you are getting nerfed. Next up SORCS/Consulars!

[AndiusTheGreat]

They will be addressed in time just like everything else. That I can guarantee

 

Hopefully sooner rather than later. Unlike commandos we have no ability to give ourselves temporary interrupt immunity. Unlike sages our defensive skill is entirely worthless. I know well the short-comings of this class playing as a sawbones. Our armor is made from wet napkins and our defensive skills are next to useless. Our only strength left is flash grenade which is a break on damage stun.

 

I honestly cannot see any reason why a serious PVPer would ever roll a scoundrel if this nerf is implemented in its current form.

 

I have no sympathy for an overpowered class I will not deny this. And I dont need a middle ground you are getting nerfed. Next up SORCS/Consulars!

 

In the meantime be prepared to get rolled by them over and over and over as the only class that we could 3 hit if they were in PVP gear (Provided their shield was down) was... take a guess.

Edited January 24, 2012 by AndiusTheGreat

[thecoffeecup]

They will be addressed in time just like everything else. That I can guarantee

 

I wouldn't expect any positive changes the first few months.

 

I'd love for them to prove me wrong though.

 

The forums always make me depressed. Going to do something else instead. Something positive

Edited January 24, 2012 by thecoffeecup

[GrinNfool]

I have no sympathy for an overpowered class I will not deny this. And I dont need a middle ground you are getting nerfed. Next up SORCS/Consulars!

 

Case and point, thats an admission of being a troll if I ever heard one.

[Trauglodyte]

I think that people, on both sides, drastically under/over estimate the problem with the ConcOp/Scrapper. Here is what we know:

 

- Acid Blade's/Flichette Round's Armor Pen is harsh

- The knock down on Jarring Strike/K.O. is harsh

- The sustainable DPS of the ConcOp/Scrapper is weak

- Neithe the Conc/Leth Op nor the Scrapper/Dirty Fighting Scoundrel have an ounce of mobility

- Survivability for all Op/Scondrel specs boil down to Cloaking Screen/Disappearing Act and Shield Probe/Defensive Screen

 

Taking all of that into account, the original poster's suggestions fix the PvP issue (to a point) of Op/Scoundrel opening burst. But, those same changes screw PvE in the long run, which would require more balancing in the future, and do nothing to fix the major issues that many people have been talking about. BW took the easiest route to a fix that did NOT unbalance the other side of the game.

 

ConcOps/Scrappers SUCK in toe-to-toe fights. This is the primary problem when you try to build a class centered around stealth. And this is further worsened because the other tree (Lethality/Dirty Fighting) suffer from the same problems plus their own inherent spec issues.

 

In my opinion, the knockdown needs to be removed entirely and substituted with an accuracy buff with a 10ish second duration. But, until Bioware decides to take the spec in another direction FAR AWAY from being a rogue, both classes are going to suffer and everyone else is going to complain. You can't build a successful class on the basis of stealth and it has been proven since the days of UO. The out of stealth attacks are either too powerful, they're balanced but the associated stuns are too harsh, or you have one of the above combined with crap survivability requiring the player to blow 3 or more cool downs just to survive.

 

Broken is broken.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Trauglodyte

[Reveillere]

I think most operatives/mirror class needs to go play another class to really see how op their classes are, one operative even complained on how he couldn't even deal 2,5k damage in a single blow at level 36 ^^^^ while I as a level 47 assassin is happy to even crit 2k \o/ so on topic I really agree that the problem with this class is that their burst damage is way too high, no class should be able to drag ones hp down to 30% in a matter of seconds unless you're level 50 vs a level 20

[Lagmonster]

I wouldn't expect any positive changes the first few months.

 

I'd love for them to prove me wrong though.

 

They have already taken a step in earning my respect to a degree. They didn't push 1.1.1 right out the door like most were expecting today. Doesn't mean I agree with the changes they want to do, and doesn't mean I agree with everything this guys post says. Hell the only thing I'll agree on is crit bonus damage being an issue with Hidden strike ONLY from M.K.B. Where he wants to just gut M.K.B. out right with no thought on how it effects Pve.