Nerfs! Is it Lethality time?

[bigwiz]

With the new changes...

 

Operative

Acid Blade: Now provides 30% armor penetration while active.

Jarring Strike: This ability now knocks the target down for 1.5 seconds.

Hidden Strike: The damage output of this ability has been decreased by approximately 20% to control burst damage and because it was enabling significantly faster than intended kills in PvP.

 

 

Scoundrel

Flechette Round: Now provides 30% armor penetration while active.

K.O.: This ability now knocks the target down for 1.5 seconds.

Shoot First: The damage output of this ability has been decreased by approximately 20% to control burst damage and because it was enabling significantly faster than intended kills in PvP.

 

With the new changes, those of you who aren't interested in Medicine/healing tree... Will you be going Lethality? Maybe a cross between Concealment & Lethality? Or staying Concealment. Being the least played class already, it looks like there will be even less of us now (not such a bad thing).

[CaptainInsano]

Nah Lethality is pretty much a broken tree for Operatives. A DoT based tree and a squishy melee burst class with no gap closers doesn't mix. Concealment will still be better even though it will be a subpar PvP damage spec. Most good Operatives will have to reroll Mara/Jug if they want to do competitive melee in PvP or suck it up and spec healer.

[bobmcbo]

hey, i like lethality. people see the DOT part of it, but after trying it out, I discovered that it's more of a kiting tree

[Erenax]

I've been destroying people with Lethality on my 39 Operative. Open with Hidden Strike into Backstab then Shiv, Debilitate, Corrosive Grenade/Dart while they're stunned, then Cull-Cull and most people are done for.

 

Usually top damage in battlegrounds as well.

[neurosisxeno]

hey, i like lethality. people see the DOT part of it, but after trying it out, I discovered that it's more of a kiting tree

 

It's not fun to Kite when you have very few ways to put distance between you and the enemy. I played Lethality for 30 Valor Ranks, it's busted as hell. Not having a reliable way to generate TA from a distance is what kills it. Cull can hit really hard (think I saw it hit 2k + 1850 + 1850 on lower levels in WZ's) but in PvP the setup is just ridiculous. You need to get 2 DoT's, Stim Boost, a spare TA or 2, and then maybe you can get a Cull off. If your DoT crits had a chance to generate TA, then the class would be amazing--See Overpowered.

[wintersnight]

With the new changes...

 

Operative

Acid Blade: Now provides 30% armor penetration while active.

Jarring Strike: This ability now knocks the target down for 1.5 seconds.

Hidden Strike: The damage output of this ability has been decreased by approximately 20% to control burst damage and because it was enabling significantly faster than intended kills in PvP.

 

 

Scoundrel

Flechette Round: Now provides 30% armor penetration while active.

K.O.: This ability now knocks the target down for 1.5 seconds.

Shoot First: The damage output of this ability has been decreased by approximately 20% to control burst damage and because it was enabling significantly faster than intended kills in PvP.

 

With the new changes, those of you who aren't interested in Medicine/healing tree... Will you be going Lethality? Maybe a cross between Concealment & Lethality? Or staying Concealment. Being the least played class already, it looks like there will be even less of us now (not such a bad thing).

 

No, it's too slow of a build up for this quick kill game. Also, too many classes have a dispel...the dispel in this game works on 2 dots per click.

[caultonpos]

Most PvP is not one-on-one starting with surprise - sure your first attack may be but after that its usually get to the next nearest opponent.

 

1) So often you will get a knockback and the nice thing is you can drop dots and grenades from a distance while closing for your shiv

 

2) People dont notice your corrosive dart so you can sink a whole bunch into people from a distance

 

3) If you look at skills that directly contribute towards dps lethality has 11 and concealment has 8

[bobmcbo]

It's not fun to Kite when you have very few ways to put distance between you and the enemy. I played Lethality for 30 Valor Ranks, it's busted as hell. Not having a reliable way to generate TA from a distance is what kills it. Cull can hit really hard (think I saw it hit 2k + 1850 + 1850 on lower levels in WZ's) but in PvP the setup is just ridiculous. You need to get 2 DoT's, Stim Boost, a spare TA or 2, and then maybe you can get a Cull off. If your DoT crits had a chance to generate TA, then the class would be amazing--See Overpowered.

 

think about it, a buff to flashbang lowering enemy accuracy, a buff to debilitate increasing your speed after you use it, a buff to corrosive grenade causing it to slow enemies, a buff to countermeasures making it a cc breaker, and just having sever tendon

 

all I have to do is poison a target, and

if it's melee, keep ccing and running

if it's ranged, just roll into cover.

 

sure, my DPS isn't as high as with concealment, but my survivability improved greatly

[neurosisxeno]

think about it, a buff to flashbang lowering enemy accuracy, a buff to debilitate increasing your speed after you use it, a buff to corrosive grenade causing it to slow enemies, a buff to countermeasures making it a cc breaker, and just having sever tendon

 

all I have to do is poison a target, and

if it's melee, keep ccing and running

if it's ranged, just roll into cover.

 

sure, my DPS isn't as high as with concealment, but my survivability improved greatly

 

If you poison them you cut the time FB CC's them down to nearly nothing. Also, that Countermeasure Talent, it only removes snares. It is NOT a CC breaker. So you spend 2 Talent points to remove snares every 45 seconds. Doesn't sound to glorious to me. I think some of the Concealment Talents are way better for survivability too;

 

Revitalizers - 2% HP every 3s is nice especially once you finish a fight

Infiltrator - 15% increased MS when stealth

Pin Down - 2s Root

Energy Screen - Can be healed when you vanish

Advanced Cloaking - Cut the CD on Vanish down nicely

MKB - 1.5 EPS extra from Stim Boost

 

Then there's the fact that you would have to sacrifice so much for even equal survivability in terms of damage and Energy Regen, it hardly seems worth it. Given the build you described, you'd have to run a spec like this:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#4010cZhZhrrkMrGdGR.1

 

You'd be giving up stuff like reduced energy cost on CD, DB, and ST, all moves required for Kiting. You'd also give up Endorphin Rush (15 Energy when you active Adrenaline Probe) and Cut Down (6% damage on Cull and Overload Shot). It just doesn't seem worth it to me.

[bobmcbo]

If you poison them you cut the time FB CC's them down to nearly nothing. Also, that Countermeasure Talent, it only removes snares. It is NOT a CC breaker. So you spend 2 Talent points to remove snares every 45 seconds. Doesn't sound to glorious to me. I think some of the Concealment Talents are way better for survivability too;

 

Revitalizers - 2% HP every 3s is nice especially once you finish a fight

Infiltrator - 15% increased MS when stealth

Pin Down - 2s Root

Energy Screen - Can be healed when you vanish

Advanced Cloaking - Cut the CD on Vanish down nicely

MKB - 1.5 EPS extra from Stim Boost

 

Then there's the fact that you would have to sacrifice so much for even equal survivability in terms of damage and Energy Regen, it hardly seems worth it. Given the build you described, you'd have to run a spec like this:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#4010cZhZhrrkMrGdGR.1

 

You'd be giving up stuff like reduced energy cost on CD, DB, and ST, all moves required for Kiting. You'd also give up Endorphin Rush (15 Energy when you active Adrenaline Probe) and Cut Down (6% damage on Cull and Overload Shot). It just doesn't seem worth it to me.

 

well, it sortof makes sense why concealment would need that, they're in melee range and still a squishy class. lethality has survivability by avoiding damage altogether

[Rainsfords]

well, it sortof makes sense why concealment would need that, they're in melee range and still a squishy class. lethality has survivability by avoiding damage altogether

 

I guess you build TAs for Cull by wishing really hard.

[bobmcbo]

I guess you build TAs for Cull by wishing really hard.

 

I just got the thingy in the medic tree giving kolto injections a 100% chance to grant TA

[neurosisxeno]

I just got the thingy in the medic tree giving kolto injections a 100% chance to grant TA

 

So you dps by throwing heals into your rotation?

 

...

 

what?

[bobmcbo]

So you dps by throwing heals into your rotation?

 

...

 

what?

 

so, you've never had to self heal in a fight ever?

[Sylriana]

So you dps by throwing heals into your rotation?

 

...

 

what?

 

Pretty much. You offheal while DoTing up the enemy team.

 

Though I do really wish Cull (and weakening blast, though lots of people don't spec that high in the tree) had a 30m range.

[Garrix]

I'm running as lethal at 50. I was concealment forever. Ultimately I can see why so many put down lethality. It does need change, most importantly a way to build TAs at range. Concealment doesn't require you to run away to spend your TAs so why should lethality have to do shive drivebys to build ours? We are either a ranged spec or we are not, this hit and run stuff isn't the way to go, especially with the 50 billion CCs flying through the air at any given time.

 

Overall though I find it more fun than concealment so I'll trudge on and do my best to get better, and hope changes come that will give us a more logical rotation and gameplay style to follow.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Garrix

[caultonpos]

I think you have to look at lethality differently, pretend it is a close up tree.

 

So you start out in stealth, hidden strike, debilitate, backstab, shiv, then you usually get knocked back, then you have your ranged skills corrosive nade (which slows them), cull, to use while closing in again for your next shiv.

[Garrix]

True but when the guy you are fighting doesn't die after 2 culls, then what? Driveby shivs for TA. Edited January 28, 2012 by Garrix

[Bloodguard]

The problem with kiting in WZ's is that it is usually never one on one. Kiting takes too long. You may succeed, but usually another guy will see what you are doing and turn the odds against you.

 

I really think the OP may very well be a broken pvp class after this nerf because everyone else has a hammer and we dont.

[caultonpos]

Agreed, which is why I suspect despite the nerf that concealment will still be better to kill one-one-one.

 

I dont have acid blade and there are few i cant kill when coming from concealment - at least in the under 50s warzones.

[Garrix]

The problem with kiting in WZ's is that it is usually never one on one. Kiting takes too long. You may succeed, but usually another guy will see what you are doing and turn the odds against you.

 

 

This is why lethality has its place, because most fights are not 1v1. Yet everything else you write tends to lean towards the 1v1 mindset by focusing on concealment.

 

The lethality rotation is a bit long, giving concealment the advantage of speed. However, lethality is more about helping others. Its much easier to get off 2 dots, shiv, weakening blast and a cull when its on a target who is beating on your ally instead of you. Both specs have their good and bad, and in the end its about what do you find most fun that matters most, not what others are telling you is best. Lethality needs work no doubt, but its not completely useless in its current state.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Garrix

[Sylriana]

I really like PvP lethality, but it has a few issues:

 

-Dispels really ruin the specs damage.

-The spec has no "proper" way to generate TA for itself. You either have to spec medic and offheal to keep TA up or get into melee range and shiv, both of which are counterintuitive to the spec's goals.

-You're squishy like all Ops are, but you can't go in and out like Conceal does. Despite this, you still have to sit at 10m or less for optimal damage.

 

As far as balancing ideas to make the spec stronger... only two to really make it an awesome tree:

 

-Let DoTs and/or grenade/dart/blast activate TA.

-Bump the range on Cull and Weakening Blast to 20 or 30m.

[Santaner]

Lethality sucks because:

 

1. Too much wind-up before you can actually deal serious damage. It can work for a ranged class, but not a melee class with no gap closer. By the time you're done "winding-up", you're CC'd, kited, out of range, dead.

 

2. Our main damage is hard countered by cleanse. Even a non-heal spec'd Scoundrel/Commando can cleanse our DoTs. That's just stupid.

 

3. In conjunction with 1, give us range. We have none because TA/UH needs to be generated in *melee* range. Push back Cull to 15m, give us a way to generate TA from that distance, and suddenly, this is a great mid-range spec.

 

Being completely honest, I'm losing faith in Bioware's ability to run an MMO. Story (which wasn't very captivating for most classes) only goes so far when you're missing essential MMO aspects, including some semblance of balance. Don't get me started on Ilum, the GTN, World PvP, lack of endgame content, etc.

[Mazikeen]

It's not fun to Kite when you have very few ways to put distance between you and the enemy. I played Lethality for 30 Valor Ranks, it's busted as hell. Not having a reliable way to generate TA from a distance is what kills it. Cull can hit really hard (think I saw it hit 2k + 1850 + 1850 on lower levels in WZ's) but in PvP the setup is just ridiculous. You need to get 2 DoT's, Stim Boost, a spare TA or 2, and then maybe you can get a Cull off. If your DoT crits had a chance to generate TA, then the class would be amazing--See Overpowered.

 

http://db.darthhater.com/skill_calc/imperial_agent/operative/#::f19ef2e3fe2f5ef4e2fe2f2efef2e6fef:

 

See Medical Engineering

 

TA problem solved

[Xenthum]

http://db.darthhater.com/skill_calc/imperial_agent/operative/#::f19ef2e3fe2f5ef4e2fe2f2efef2e6fef:

 

See Medical Engineering

 

TA problem solved

 

Not having Weakening Blast destroys your DoT damage, which means you're a healer and not a DPS at this point.

Also, 4% Alacrity (worthless) over stim boost? No.