Good vs Evil

[traft]

Nobody believes they are the bad guys, it is always someone else that is the bad guy. But, from the movies we are lead to believe the Republic supporters are the good guys and the Empire are the evil people.

 

But, lets explore some of the known cannon.

 

Senator Palapatine is democratically elected, he follows a belief in the Sith that revolves around expression passion and seeking to acquire power.

 

We have the Republic an old and corrupt government which shows to be totally ineffective in government, does nothing while Naboo gets invaded. It's strong arm is the order of the Jedi, an order that doesn't believe in love or marriage or showing any kind of emotions.

 

They plot against a democratically elected government and run around murdering and vandalising government property so what, they can go back to the totally ineffective form of government?

 

Jedi are terrorists. They commit unlawful acts against a democratic government and the people who would safeguard it.

 

Jedi are the evil ones. Even when they die they do not even move on, they linger on like shadows haunting those they want to manipulate.

 

Sith is good. Jedi are terrorists. That is all. Discuss!

[Turst]

Good is a point of view.

[Metaphasic]

OP, good and evil are purely objective concepts to begin with, completely dependant on one persons view. You cannot even argue the ethics and motives of either side to any effectiveness.

 

In this case the Replublic would claim that even though Palp was elected, it was done so on false ground, grounds that he manufactured at the expense of others. Palp on the other hand, would defend his position as normal, as his beliefs do not hold others lives as having value.

 

This topic isn't really something that can be easily 'discussed' as you put it. But thanks for a break from all the craziness here and actually getting me to post instead of just lurking around the dev tracker.

 

[harpuax]

You have to remember, Palapatine manipulated everything to get elected, even if it seems democratically.

[TheGawdfather]

Good Guy/ Bad Guy Test:

 

Does the end justify the means?

 

 

 

YES: Bad Guy

 

 

Depends: Grey Guy

 

 

No: Good Guy

[rweishaar]

Good. Bad. I'm the guy with the lightsaber.

[Tharock]

Good. Bad. I'm the guy with the lightsaber.

 

And this is win.

 

Hail to the king baby.

[Pheroras]

in an ideal gaming world there would be sith trainers in the jedi academy and jedi heretics in the sith ruins of khoriban--this would give the chance to choose in game prior to level 9 which side one wanted to follow.

something like this could be done for smugglers and bounty hunters and for troopers and agents. one zone where early light and dark side choices would actually matter is exactly what the game needs for full immersion.

[Yfelsung]

Good and evil commonly land along the same lines as weak and strong.

 

Funny that, don't you think?

[RokarooJack]

Good and evil commonly land along the same lines as weak and strong.

 

Funny that, don't you think?

 

Orly? Me thinks not.

 

Case in point: Sheep dog vs wolf

[Nietzschanguy]

I tend to favour the Sith/Empire generally purely because I prefer a stable and effective governance over the mess that is the republic. Not that I particularly like the Sith, particularly since most of them in the Star Wars universe tend to be utter morons who know nothing of the concept of 'banality of evil', but they at least tend to be to the point.

 

In any case, I imagine that puts me firmly in the evil camp, and certainly I don't see issues with using force, but I equally find the Sith mantra of utter selfishness and barbarity to be quite boring and simple minded, in the same way as the Jedi mantra of never sacrificing the few for the many no matter how great the cost to be idiotic.

 

I guess for the purposes of KOTOR you could put me firmly in the Kreia camp more than anything in this particular discussion.

[Yfelsung]

Orly? Me thinks not.

 

Case in point: Sheep dog vs wolf

 

*scratches head* Animals don't live by moral standards.

[Vasuul]

Death Star Politics - Clerks (good part starts about :40)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGOVbXF7Iog

[BlackMaximus]

+1 for creating a thread that doesn't involve QQ over the Early Access program.

 

The Sith and the Jedi, the Republic and the Empire, are not symbols of good and bad. They are just differing ideologies, different viewpoints on what is right and wrong.

 

The Jedi strive to be of pure essence, advocating themselves as neutral judges of actions they witness. They take action only when they feel they must, but they otherwise refrain from engaging in war. In striving for purity, they sacrifice emotion and love. Many would argue that you cannot live life to its fullest when you limit yourself as they do.

 

The Sith, conversely, strive to feel deep passion for things they care about, and to experience emotions, positive and negative. War and bloodshed is a natural course of action in their view. The Empire as a whole strives for effectiveness. When a job is not completed, those responsible for failure are swiftly removed from existence, and replaced with more capable beings.

 

The "dark" side of the Force is really just an extension of power that the Jedi choose to block rather than exploit. They fear the level of power that the Force can offer, and so they limit themselves for the sake of what they to be as purity. Whereas the Sith exploit all aspects of the Force to their advantage, in order to be as effective as they can be.

[WickedDjinn]

This is always a stupid conversation to have in the context of a universe that has always been built on a foundation of stark contrast. There is little grey area in Starwars and those looking hard for it do so mostly because they want to justify playing a Good dark Jedi.

[C-Bee]

Sith and Jedi are not good or evil, they simply view the world differently. Jedi focus on their surroundings while Sith focus on their personal well being.

 

Now if someone says that those who see the world differently must be evil, it doesn't make either party good or evil. It just makes the person who made the claim a complete idiot.

 

I'll just go ahead and leave religion and today's morals out of this discussion since those are really just dominant view points at this time and age and not some absolute divine truths. Who knows what kind of morals are dominant 100 or 1000 years from now...

[pmaura]

this are stupid philisophical questions, everyone knows what good is and evil. its not a point of view it never changes. it works like this. if you treat someone in manner you yourself would get ticked off at guess what your probably doing something a little wrong.

[traft]

+1 for creating a thread that doesn't involve QQ over the Early Access program.

 

The Sith and the Jedi, the Republic and the Empire, are not symbols of good and bad. They are just differing ideologies, different viewpoints on what is right and wrong.

 

The Jedi strive to be of pure essence, advocating themselves as neutral judges of actions they witness. They take action only when they feel they must, but they otherwise refrain from engaging in war. In striving for purity, they sacrifice emotion and love. Many would argue that you cannot live life to its fullest when you limit yourself as they do.

 

The Sith, conversely, strive to feel deep passion for things they care about, and to experience emotions, positive and negative. War and bloodshed is a natural course of action in their view. The Empire as a whole strives for effectiveness. When a job is not completed, those responsible for failure are swiftly removed from existence, and replaced with more capable beings.

 

The "dark" side of the Force is really just an extension of power that the Jedi choose to block rather than exploit. They fear the level of power that the Force can offer, and so they limit themselves for the sake of what they to be as purity. Whereas the Sith exploit all aspects of the Force to their advantage, in order to be as effective as they can be.

 

Are we as a whole ignoring 'Midichlorians'?

 

If according to Lucas there is no light side or dark side, there is just the force and what individuals choose to do with it. It is why Vader, who was once a Jedi can force choke someone. Jedi and Sith are the same, it is just the actions and tools which differ. Sith abilities feed of raw emotion and the more destructive ones are based on emotions like hate, anger and desire. These are not evil though. It is what you do with them that define good or evil.

 

I find it hard to relate to an order that seeks out to block emotion and love or an order where the focus is not on controlling the emotions. Ignoring them doesn't make them go away, they are just repressed.

 

That in a nutshell to me describes the Jedi. Repressed.

[Lostfett]

I just wanted to say that this thread reminds me of the whole "Tasty Wheat" deal from the Matrix.

 

“How did the machines know what Tasty Wheat tasted like. huh? Maybe they got it wrong. Maybe what I think Tasty Wheat tasted like actually tasted like oatmeal or tuna fish. That makes you wonder about a lot of things. You take chicken for example, maybe they couldn't figure out what to make chicken taste like, which is why chicken tastes like everything.”

 

[traft]

I just wanted to say that this thread reminds me of the whole "Tasty Wheat" deal from the Matrix.

 

“How did the machines know what Tasty Wheat tasted like. huh? Maybe they got it wrong. Maybe what I think Tasty Wheat tasted like actually tasted like oatmeal or tuna fish. That makes you wonder about a lot of things. You take chicken for example, maybe they couldn't figure out what to make chicken taste like, which is why chicken tastes like everything.”

 

 

They would know, it is just the electrical input from the chemical reaction of the compounds relaid by your tongue to your brain. Man is a chemical based machine, something that will eventually will be easily replicated by machines. But, that is a different topic.

[Jorander]

Nobody believes they are the bad guys, it is always someone else that is the bad guy. But, from the movies we are lead to believe the Republic supporters are the good guys and the Empire are the evil people.

 

But, lets explore some of the known cannon.

 

Senator Palapatine is democratically elected, he follows a belief in the Sith that revolves around expression passion and seeking to acquire power.

 

We have the Republic an old and corrupt government which shows to be totally ineffective in government, does nothing while Naboo gets invaded. It's strong arm is the order of the Jedi, an order that doesn't believe in love or marriage or showing any kind of emotions.

 

They plot against a democratically elected government and run around murdering and vandalising government property so what, they can go back to the totally ineffective form of government?

 

Jedi are terrorists. They commit unlawful acts against a democratic government and the people who would safeguard it.

 

Jedi are the evil ones. Even when they die they do not even move on, they linger on like shadows haunting those they want to manipulate.

 

Sith is good. Jedi are terrorists. That is all. Discuss!

 

Well, I guess this all depends on how you see good and evil. Palpatine was trying to destroy the Republic, and he was still a citizen subject to Republic law, which he had broken, massively, and he had not yet set it up via his emergency powers that it was okay for him to do so. He was actually guilty of multiple counts of treason, and the Jedi were attempting to bring him to justice. Later, he ended up destroying said form of government, because the Jedi simply failed to stop him. There is of course a whole different side to this.

 

Palpatine is a Sith, they spread misery and suffering, causing as much havoc as they can, to increase the force of entropy in that setting, so that they may become stronger. They acquire power at the expense of others' lives, and if left undealt-with, would ultimately destroy the galaxy, which was btw, Palpatine's fondest desire. The Jedi of course, have as one of their goals, the prevention of this horrible horrible fate. Now, about that thing about emotion an marriage. Jedi absolutely are allowed to have and show emotion, and they are allowed to marry. There is just procedures involved.

 

Unlike you, I am not going to attatch good or evil qualities to this, I am going ot leave it here to let people decide for themselves.

[Jorander]

If according to Lucas there is no light side or dark side, there is just the force and what individuals choose to do with it.

 

Misinformation isn't cool. Lucas never said that. What he did say about this subject, is that the Force is neither good or evil, but it does have a good and bad side. He also said that there is also the greater, cosmic Force which deals with destiny and our place and the universe, and the like.

 

It is why Vader, who was once a Jedi can force choke someone.

 

Not really, he is Force-sensitive and knows how to use the technique, nothing more to it than that.

 

Jedi and Sith are the same, it is just the actions and tools which differ.

 

Jedi and Sith are absolutely not the same, at all. Though, they are united through the Force. If anyone actually can understand and explain the meaning of the second sentence of this paragraph, you win the internet.

 

Sith abilities feed of raw emotion and the more destructive ones are based on emotions like hate, anger and desire. These are not evil though. It is what you do with them that define good or evil.

 

This sounds almost like a twisted version of what Kyle Katarn once said. That no Force power is inherently dark or light, but it is how you use it that matters. I will tell you, that drawing on the Force through your dark emotions, is dark-sided, and using the dark side in such a way, well, it has consequences.

 

I find it hard to relate to an order that seeks out to block emotion and love or an order where the focus is not on controlling the emotions. Ignoring them doesn't make them go away, they are just repressed.

 

That in a nutshell to me describes the Jedi. Repressed.

 

Jedi do not seek to block out any emotions at all. The Sith on the otherhand are required to ignore a few of them, such as joy, and love, as these weaken the power of a Sith.

[Jorander]

+1 for creating a thread that doesn't involve QQ over the Early Access program.

 

The Sith and the Jedi, the Republic and the Empire, are not symbols of good and bad. They are just differing ideologies, different viewpoints on what is right and wrong.

 

The Jedi strive to be of pure essence, advocating themselves as neutral judges of actions they witness. They take action only when they feel they must, but they otherwise refrain from engaging in war. In striving for purity, they sacrifice emotion and love. Many would argue that you cannot live life to its fullest when you limit yourself as they do.

 

The Sith and Jedi don't seem to really function on the level of right and wrong in their daily lives. Sure, some of their decisions and thought processes ultimately come back to that, but, I don't think those concepts are at the forefront of either of their respective minds. Jedi also do not sacrifice emotion and love. The Sith on the otherhand, are required to limit themselves to some degree.

 

The Sith, conversely, strive to feel deep passion for things they care about, and to experience emotions, positive and negative. War and bloodshed is a natural course of action in their view. The Empire as a whole strives for effectiveness. When a job is not completed, those responsible for failure are swiftly removed from existence, and replaced with more capable beings.

 

Actually, Sith try and block out positive emotion because it weakens their connection to the dark side of the Force. For them, war and bloodshed aren't just natural, they are the method to gaining more power. I would like to point out that there ideas on what makes a thing natural are remarkably narrow, and skewed.

 

The "dark" side of the Force is really just an extension of power that the Jedi choose to block rather than exploit. They fear the level of power that the Force can offer, and so they limit themselves for the sake of what they to be as purity. Whereas the Sith exploit all aspects of the Force to their advantage, in order to be as effective as they can be.

 

Yay, you can quote Palpatine. I'm sorry, but are you really going to trust the words of the biggest liar and megalomanical psycho in the setting? I mean, considering how many of his ideas have already been shot to peices by IU confirmations and OOU statements, there is no two ways about this. The core of what Palpatine is trying to say, his meaning, is flat-out wrong.

[Vengola]

In my opinion it is obvious that the Sith or the Empire are evil or the bad guys.

 

It is more in the case of Republic and the Jedi where I do not see what actually makes them good or at least worth saving.

 

You have a corrupt and feebleminded Republic that gets screwed over by the evil Sith Lord, well boo hoo. My heart bleeds for them.

 

As for jedi well just listen to any dialogue with Yoda and that really says it all.

 

Stuff in Clone Wars or in here is also pretty funny. They are saving democracy by killing Separatists, yeah, that makes perfect sense.

[Jorander]

In my opinion it is obvious that the Sith or the Empire are evil or the bad guys.

 

It is more in the case of Republic and the Jedi where I do not see what actually makes them good or at least worth saving.

 

You have a corrupt and feebleminded Republic that gets screwed over by the evil Sith Lord, well boo hoo. My heart bleeds for them.

 

As for jedi well just listen to any dialogue with Yoda and that really says it all.

 

Stuff in Clone Wars or in here is also pretty funny. They are saving democracy by killing Separatists, yeah, that makes perfect sense.

 

The point was to show how the Jedi order had been taken and twisted by Palpatine into something that it wasn't supposed to be, which is why we get the image of the Jedi that we do. I actually find myself agreeing with Yoda on many things, believe it or not. I would also like to point out that it was due to Sith influence that the Republic had become corrupt and feeble. The Sith, since the Ruusan Reformation, were working on them, for a total of 1000 years, to weaken them and make them ripe for takeover.