This is why we compare to 7 year old wow.

[Barracudastr]

Agreed, I don't need a ton of skill to get gear in SWTOR, BUT.... I do need to at least move around. I literally went into an LFR in WoW and watched Netflix on my other monitor.

 

First time I did it I got vote kicked, second time no one cared, and I did it 3 more times after that. Does it make me a good guy? No, but it proved a point before I unsubbed.

 

Well when 24 other people carry you sure...

 

You cant do that in normal mode and you cant do it in heroic mode.

 

LFR is for kiddies to be honest and is dumbed down based on them expecting people to not be paying attention not be good, not having modes, having no communication like in vent during a real raid.

 

Congrats you got carried by a pug and unsubbed.

 

Not sure what your point is to be perfectly honest.

[DirtyDozen]

It's a competitor product. Meaning as a consumer it's a choice or option for me when I might think of playing an MMO.

 

So personally I don't see a problem with it.

 

But I will admit, it gets old. If I see WOW in the title I normally skip it. Also I only gave WOW a 30day spin in between other games so I don't have much to add in the discussions.

 

I think it's fair to compare games for discussion as long as it's constructive.

[natteulven]

this thread is funny..!!

 

Damn i rly do get a lot of laughs in this and other threads .. keep on going and dicuss what you guys discuss

 

its funny .!!

[blacksarevok]

Let the spoiled WoW kids go back to WoW, imo. Keeping them all quarantined to one area is the best thing for everyone at this point.

[YourFutureEx]

All of those things should have been handled in BETA testing, not after the game went live. BW's QA is bad or the developers aren't listening. Slicing pre-nerf and Ilum 1.1 should never have made it out the door.

 

 

Most of the features being requested are the types of things all MMOs need to have to compete in today's market. A good LFG tool; a properly sortable GTN and a resizable/customizable UI should have been in this game at release. Trion figured out how to implement those at Rift's launch and they are a much smaller studio with a much smaller budget.

 

I don't think you realize that SWTOR is the first game that actually can "compete" with WoW, which, in all honesty, is the only real success on the MMO market in the past 5 years. Even EVE Online, having a strong and steady following, isn't as well known as WoW and their millions of subscribers. Let's face it, Star Trek online died just because it sucked and there was nothing to do. Rift is laughable as a weak WoW clone. DC Universe Online lacked any real quality at all. What's left? This is the biggest and best game to come along in awhile. I really don't see how you, a mere player, with no programming experience, can know what it takes to implement change in a project such as this.

 

Btw... Trion? Flop. Try again.

[Pvtcarnage]

Let the spoiled WoW kids go back to WoW, imo. Keeping them all quarantined to one area is the best thing for everyone at this point.

 

Sound like my grandpa before he died lol I'm sure horse and buggy got him around fine but I like the car more. I think you "kiddies" are just plain backwards and prolly like to cut yourself in your spare time

[Skerry]

I think the problem is the perception on what is and isn't an "industry standard".

 

LFG tool - not an industry standard.

Housing - not an industry standard.

Combat Logs - IS an industry standard, however... Parser are NOT an industry standard (most are addins made by other players).

 

Customizable UI - an industry standard.

MODDABLE UI/ADD ON Creation - NOT an industry standard.

 

 

The difference between industry standard and not is what do just about ALL MMO's have, vs what do some have and some not have.

 

If some do and some don't then it isn't a "standard".

However, if all do, or if all but 1 or 2 do - then it would be a standard.

 

So, that is really where most of the contention comes into play - yes, there are some things they do not have and they have admitted to it and have said they are working on it; however the lists that people are throwing around are not exactly a fair representation of "industry standard".

 

WOW != Industry Standard.

The MMO Games as a collective whole and their offerings = industry standards.

[Sycoskater]

I love how everyone jumps on these posts with "Go back to WoW!", "Leave the game, then!" etc, etc, etc...

 

The fact is if there aren't any posts like this, then how is this game supposed to get ANY better? It is the posts that have constructive criticism in them that will make this game succeed.. Not the BW/EA fanboys who want to hear nothing of the problems, and only want to make everything seem like sunshine/rainbows. Funny thing is.. They are always the first ones to leave the game. They do it quietly, to save their egos.. But they leave first

 

The ones who point out the problems, and hope for brighter futures will be the ones who stay. We are not easily entertained by bright colors and flashing lights.. Sure they are pretty to look at, but we crave more. And it's because of this craving that MMOs grow! The simple "FanBoys" are the ones who kill video games, add nothing to the community, and are usually the ones who leave first to the next flashy light

[HavenAE]

Now to focus on something very interesting here:

Players aren't going to understand if you don't have industry standard features. It's been a big challenge making sure that we can put in all of those features into our game at game launch or shortly thereafter.

 

I'm pretty sure I'm a player and I understand why they don't. Because I understand your launched game is just a FOUNDATION.

 

So all you fanboys here saying we shouldn't be comparing, we shouldn't expect industry standard features that 90% of mmo's have, have offically been snuffed by bioware themselves as they know that they are industry standard features and that they need them.

 

I'm not a fanboy and I'm telling you it's stupid to compare ANY newly launched MMO to a game that's had 7-12 years of constant ongoing development.

 

I don't care what game it is, could be SWTOR, could be GW2, could be Tera Online, could be whatever. It's simply STUPID

 

 

Of course an older game has more content, it's had more time.

Of course an older game has more feature, it's had more time.

Of course an older game is more polished, it's had more time.

Of course an older game has less bugs, it's had more time.

 

I mean hell if we're going to keep comparing every MMO that launches to WoW then we might as well hang up the hat, go back to WoW and no developer ever create another MMO, because they will all ALWAYS have less than WoW at their launch.

 

 

If you think ANY MMO is going to launch perfect with everything you want, then you are going to be looking for a long long time.

 

 

This is why we shouldn't compare any new MMO to a 7 year old WoW.

 

And now you know why people QQ on the forums all day because we dont understand the hindsight in not having the majority of those features that have been in mmo's for over 10 years lol.

 

And by the way a lot of those features people have been asking for Have NOT been in the industry for 10 years.

 

All of these things are relatively new features.

 

dungeon finder

default customizable UI

dual spec

cross server pvp

cross server lfg

addons ( WoW is the most addon heavy MMO and many MMOs before WoW, and even after didn't have near the user created development in terms of addons)

Edited January 23, 2012 by HavenAE

[Bmonkeeus]

Who cares?

[Coramac]

MODDABLE UI/ADD ON Creation - NOT an industry standard.

 

I agreed largely except for this. This is an industry standard.

[Sycoskater]

I'm pretty sure I'm a player and I understand why they don't. Because I understand your launched game is just a FOUNDATION.

 

 

 

I'm not a fanboy and I'm telling you it's stupid to compare ANY newly launched MMO to a game that's had 7-12 years of constant ongoing development.

 

I don't care what game it is, could be SWTOR, could be GW2, could be Tera Online, could be whatever. It's simply STUPID

 

 

Of course an older game has more content, it's had more time.

Of course an older game has more feature, it's had more time.

Of course an older game is more polished, it's had more time.

Of course an older game has less bugs, it's had more time.

 

I mean hell if we're going to keep comparing every MMO that launches to WoW then we might as well hang up the hat, go back to WoW and no developer ever create another MMO, because they will all ALWAYS have less than WoW at their launch.

 

 

If you think ANY MMO is going to launch perfect with everything you want, then you are going to be looking for a long long time.

 

 

This is why we shouldn't compare any new MMO to a 7 year old WoW.

 

This is correct, but only to a certain point..

 

You HAVE to compare - Or how does the MMO industry grow, and learn from the past?

You HAVE to compare - Or you get a game that acts like it's still in it's BETA form.

You HAVE to compare - Or you won't know where the starting line is to make money (yes they need to make money)

 

ALL this post was saying is that BioWare THEMSELVES compared THEMSELVES to WoW... Don't like the comparison? Take it up with BioWare ^_^

[face_hindu]

I'm pretty sure I'm a player and I understand why they don't. Because I understand your launched game is just a FOUNDATION

 

I didn't pay for a FOUNDATION. I payed for a computer game which came in a fancy box and cost some fancy dollars.

 

I don't recall a sticker on the box that said: WARNING, THIS GAME IS JUST A FOUNDATION.

 

I now open up the floor for people to ask me if this is my first MMO.

[Tobaswolff]

This isn't a constructive post. It's whining hatred and a strange form of vengeful consumerism where an individual takesmit upon his or herself to hurt or destroy a product.

 

This is a general forum for general discussion. Devs don't read it for the simple fact that it is filled with misdirected hate and useless trolls.

 

Constructive is the suggestions forum.

[Sycoskater]

This isn't a constructive post. It's whining hatred and a strange form of vengeful consumerism where an individual takesmit upon his or herself to hurt or destroy a product.

 

This is a general forum for general discussion. Devs don't read it for the simple fact that it is filled with misdirected hate and useless trolls.

 

Constructive is the suggestions forum.

 

 

Troll says what?

[HavenAE]

I didn't pay for a FOUNDATION. I payed for a computer game which came in a fancy box and cost some fancy dollars.

 

I don't recall a sticker on the box that said: WARNING, THIS GAME IS JUST A FOUNDATION.

 

I now open up the floor for people to ask me if this is my first MMO.

 

You bought an MMO at launch, you paid for a foundation. True for ANY MMO.

 

EVERY MMO, doesnt matter if it were this game, WoW, Rift, Age of Conan, Ultima Online, Everquest, and so on, every single of one of them started out with a base game and built up around it over time. Thats what you get at launch, a base, a foundation, a point from which to grow, to meet potential. Whether you want to believe that or not, it's the way this industry has been for close to 2 decades now, and yes I've been here every step of the way.

Edited January 23, 2012 by HavenAE

[Skerry]

I agreed largely except for this. This is an industry standard.

 

 

Not moddable.

 

UI's are customizable (moving this, dragging that, resizing, repositions etc etc).

 

MODDING or Addon creations are not;

 

There is a difference between the two; easy to blend them into one though.

[Barracudastr]

This isn't a constructive post. It's whining hatred and a strange form of vengeful consumerism where an individual takesmit upon his or herself to hurt or destroy a product.

 

This is a general forum for general discussion. Devs don't read it for the simple fact that it is filled with misdirected hate and useless trolls.

 

Constructive is the suggestions forum.

 

I didn't direct my post to bioware in any way it was directed at people who constantly spout off at the mouth when someone brings up an issue in these forums.

 

Specifically the people that say dont compare this to wow its not wow. Well I am telling those people that even bioware built their product towards what wow is.

 

You severely misread or didn't read at all im guessing.

[sleepr]

Trion figured out how to implement those at Rift's launch and they are a much smaller studio with a much smaller budget.

 

And much smaller a game in therms of well... everything.

 

The complexy of SWTOR and RIFT can't be even compared, the questing system, the VO, the cutscenes, the size of the worlds, etc etc. That's why RIFT is extremely polished in therms of systems.

 

Bioware chose to give priority to what is important a good CORE, which will be expanded in the next few months.

 

RIFT didn't had at launch: guild banks, LFG TOOL and appearance tab.

 

WoW only implemented: LFG tools after 4 or 5 years, guild progression after 6 years, appearance tab this year.

 

As you can see, NO MMO launches with every single feature. The stuff SWTOR has right now works fine... people just got lazy and they now want everything at their reach by making one click.

 

The core is good, it's better than RIFT and even better then the one from WoW. This game one year from now will be alot different from what you're playing... just let the guys at bioware breath a little.

[Nitengalez]

And me.

 

me too

[HavenAE]

This is correct, but only to a certain point..

 

You HAVE to compare - Or how does the MMO industry grow, and learn from the past?

You HAVE to compare - Or you get a game that acts like it's still in it's BETA form.

You HAVE to compare - Or you won't know where the starting line is to make money (yes they need to make money)

 

ALL this post was saying is that BioWare THEMSELVES compared THEMSELVES to WoW... Don't like the comparison? Take it up with BioWare ^_^

 

 

I don't care what Bioware said, it's pretty apparent at this point that they themselves are clueless about the MMO industry as well.

 

See the biggest problem with what you said here is that you have to compare or the industry doesn't grow.

 

 

Okay, the industry isn't growing right now because of such heavy comparison. Games can't even make it past their first 3 months without failing because everyone is holding a new MMo to a 7+ year ongoing development which is impossible to measure up to just 3 months out.

 

Comparing is okay so long as you take into consideration other factors like "uh this game just launched" But when you take it to such extreme that most people do that because it doesn't have a few relatively new features that they THINK are industry standard then it fails, they leave the game goes into limbo or F2P and never grows or meets the type of success it could have.

 

Meanwhile the vast majority of MMO gamers recycle back to WoW which doesn't grow beyond what new "innovations" another MMO comes up with and we're stuck in a cycle of stagnation.

 

And honestly if these "industry standards" are so necessary then how do you explain games like Rift who had a lot of these features at launch and STILL failed.

[Barracudastr]

And much smaller a game in therms of well... everything.

 

The complexy of SWTOR and RIFT can't be even compared, the questing system, the VO, the cutscenes, the size of the worlds, etc etc. That's why RIFT is extremely polished in therms of systems.

 

Bioware chose to give priority to what is important a good CORE, which will be expanded in the next few months.

 

RIFT didn't had at launch: guild banks, LFG TOOL and appearance tab.

 

WoW only implemented: LFG tools after 4 or 5 years, guild progression after 6 years, appearance tab this year.

 

As you can see, NO MMO launches with every single feature. The stuff SWTOR has right now works fine... people just got lazy and they now want everything at their reach by making one click.

 

The core is good, it's better than RIFT and even better then the one from WoW. This game one year from now will be alot different from what you're playing... just let the guys at bioware breath a little.

 

I beg to differ.... the core is not good.

 

The amount of bugs and performance issues in this game is nothing short of staggering.

 

The core is bad the story is good but the rest is bugged pretty hardcore right now.

[DroidDestroyer]

"or shortly thereafter"

 

"or shortly thereafter"

 

"or shortly thereafter"

 

"or shortly thereafter"

 

QFE

 

People are so dense, they focus on one thing someone says and do not include things that do not support their argument. All these features that they are whining about are being added soon. Some of which it is a shame. All because WoW has ruined gamers or spoiled lazy kids have just ruined the scene all together.

[Shortwave]

With "we" you mean yourself, I presume.

 

Yes, you do that. The rest of us, however, will go ahead with our firm understanding of English pronouns. And by "us" I don't mean you.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Shortwave

[Cameirus]

The complexy of SWTOR and RIFT can't be even compared, the questing system, the VO, the cutscenes, the size of the worlds, etc etc. That's why RIFT is extremely polished in therms of systems.

 

Personally I think Rift is more complex. its got dynamic content model built in which is being expanded. its designed to allow quick updates and content uploads without major patches. I think the quests are better and the zones are better, the graphics are certainlly better. It not a corridor linear wworld like much of swtor....

 

Swtor does some things well, the voice overs, the space combat, and such.

 

But thats a mater of opinion.

 

What you say about polish is right. Rifts is much higher. and I dont think that there is any excuse for a low amount of polish, no matter what your features are, what the content is or what the game is like, it should be polished for launch. things like major graphical bugs (green planes), fps performance in WZs and ability/animation delay should not exist at launch.