One of the potentially biggest problems with SWTOR

[Sekhmit]

Now, dont get me wrong, this isnt a "zomg SWTOR sucks" thread. I happen to like the game. Alot.

 

So i sat and played and played. I made one of each character class, because im an altoholic. I got most of them to 10ish, and realized an absolutely HORRIBLE design decision.

 

Advanced Classes...they sound kinda good right?

 

Well, they did. Then i thought about it. Lets take Jedi classes for instance. Your lightsaber is customizable to the point that only the appearance of the hilt matters. Before lvl 10 this wasnt bad at all, you got your blade and swung it around and thought it was great.

 

Then you choose an advanced class. Say your a Consular, and you chose a Jedi Shadow. Sweet, you have a Double Bladed Lightsaber. Now you can pretend you are Darth Maul or something and slice people up.

 

But wait, aside from the original single hilt lightsaber, you cannot use any other weapon than the double bladed lightsaber. Since lightsaber drops themselves are essentially appearance only...your character will NEVER PLAY ANY DIFFERENT for the next 40 levels.

 

I noticed that when i played my Marauder (which is broken btw) that i really wanted to just use 1 saber. There isnt even a skill tree associated with it other than Rage, which isnt really associated with saber attacks at all. All my marauder specific skills require TWO lightsabers. Same goes with every other class...you are locked into your classe's weapon choice indefinately. Thus the game will never change, especially after 50.

 

So with no option to roll back your Advanced Class, you are stuck playing in the manner than the developers specified, and forced you into.

 

Even other MMOs have things like a "2 hand spec" or "Dual wield spec". But with ACs your spec doesnt matter one bit. I dont want AC dual speccing or anything that makes the game overly easy or accessible. But they could balance the ACs, so say Sentinel could use 1 Saber, but not be as effective with it as a Guardian, and vice versa. All Jedi have mastered the single hilt before taking on anything else.

 

Is Bioware going to change this at all? Post your thoughts, but i dont want a flamefest.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Sekhmit

[Slightlycampana]

I agree that allowing different classes different weapon specs and a variety of weapons would be nice, but not something I would say is that important.

 

Also, one of the main ways I identify another class atm is via what weapon they are carrying. Smugglers/agents are visually distinct from bh/troopers just in armour, but jedi/sith aren't. Does this change at higher level?

[OddballEasyEight]

I agree that it should be a choice to use dualwield or not.

Its not just the loss of the 30% damage you get from the offhand weapon, that would be an acceptable loss, but its the loss of entire abilities that cant be used with only one weapon.

 

I say they should have made some sort of skill tree for single weapon wielders...

[Illandre]

So what you are saying is you have a specific play style you like as far as weapons go, and you want to choose the right one that fits "you". Then choose your AC and class carefully to make sure it follows what you are looking for in a character.

 

Measure twice, cut once.

[Sekhmit]

So what you are saying is you have a specific play style you like as far as weapons go, and you want to choose the right one that fits "you". Then choose your AC and class carefully to make sure it follows what you are looking for in a character.

 

Measure twice, cut once.

 

The point is, what if you want a change? The game wont ever let you have it in its current state. There is zero flexibility. Rather than how most MMOs have 3 trees that are for different playstyles, SWTOR has 3 trees that essentially do the exact same thing.

IN the case of healers and tanks, your role is swapped, but your weapons are essentially the same as well. Instead of shooting enemies, you are shooting allies. With the same gun.

 

A marauder will still be doing the same thing with 2 sabers regardless of which tree he chooses (since the Sent/Marauder classes are pure DPS). They dont change HOW you play your character, just some skills are buffed and swapped for the talent points you input.

 

all the Jedi classes should have their "general tree" revamped to include Single-Saber combat techniques.

 

What happens, essentially, is that all Sith Marauders and Jedi Sentinels are, in effect, the same. You are no different than that other guy. You may have a different skill tree, but your purpose, animations and playstyle match his to the pin point.

 

What is the point of 90% of the customizable drops then? If animations and saber hilts stay the same, what is the POINT of it all?

Edited January 23, 2012 by Sekhmit

[Kibaken]

1) Marauders are not broken.

 

2) It's fairly clear that specific Advanced Classes only use specific weapons. Reroll Juggernaut if you want to use one saber.

[Kuvi]

I won't lie here - I only skimmed through the OPs post.

 

Choosing your own weapons and things of the like makes balancing insane - and

it's already tough in most games. I can kind of understand being able to switch AC's

(However, I think it should involve an INSANELY hard quest or something to do). I

don't understand what you mean by "your character will NEVER PLAY ANY DIFFERENT

for the next 40 levels." That's almost every MMO?

[Sekhmit]

Marauders ARE broken. At least PVP wise. Look at their forum.

 

I agree that it makes balance difficult, and i by no means said that they should have AC swapping. No, that softens the game. They just need to take that General tree and modify it. Thats all.

 

As for things remaining the same, i disagree. In other games, if you didnt want to dual wield, you could just dump points into a two-hand tree, or vice versa. They gave you flexibility. SWTOR does not. It forces you to endure being forced to use the same weapon for 40 levels.

 

It does not make sense from a lore standpoint, or a common sense standpoint, or even from an MMO standpoint. Every other MMO i can think of offhand has class flexibility that include using different weapons to change how your character conducts combat.

 

Dare i cite in The Phantom Menace how Darth Maul had his Double Edged saber cut in half...and he fought just as well with the single blade.

 

Or how a trooper, trained in all sorts of weaponry, somehow can only use a blaster rifle or a heavy cannon. But not both!

Edited January 23, 2012 by Sekhmit

[Garric]

It would be nice to be able to have more weapon choices. Will they add it? I have no idea.

 

I think they had two main reasons for doing it this way.

 

1. Balance. It is just easier to balance the game, the less configurations you have to take into account. Will this result in a more balanced game, hopefully only time will tell on that end.

 

2. Looks. I know the devs have stated they wanted someone to just be able to look at a character and know what class they are. If you see a Jedi with two light sabers you know he is a sentinel. That is a design goal they had, agree with it or not, there it is.

[Sekhmit]

It would be nice to be able to have more weapon choices. Will they add it? I have no idea.

 

I think they had two main reasons for doing it this way.

 

1. Balance. It is just easier to balance the game, the less configurations you have to take into account. Will this result in a more balanced game, hopefully only time will tell on that end.

 

2. Looks. I know the devs have stated they wanted someone to just be able to look at a character and know what class they are. If you see a Jedi with two light sabers you know he is a sentinel. That is a design goal they had, agree with it or not, there it is.

 

You have a good point.

 

As a compromise, they could add simply an appearance toggle option. Shadows/Assassins could be able to turn off one blade, and Sent/Marauder could have the offhand blade rendered "invisible" and the animations reverted to that of one blade, yet retain both in stats and damage.

[SarinTabun]

the reality of it is that it's a way to keep subs. i'm not knocking them for it but that's what it boils down to. you want to rock 2 sabers at once then go sentinel/marauder. you want to be a single saber dps machine go jugg/guardian. you want to have a dual blade to slice people's face off you gotta go shadow/assassin. it's BW's way to make people re-roll and keep you playing longer and that's it.

 

i plan on playing them all so i don't care. but i wouldn't hold your breath on it changing ever.

[gtmach]

You have a good point.

 

As a compromise, they could add simply an appearance toggle option. Shadows/Assassins could be able to turn off one blade, and Sent/Marauder could have the offhand blade rendered "invisible" and the animations reverted to that of one blade, yet retain both in stats and damage.

 

So this is a looks issue? The gameplay still remains the same if you do that..

 

You have to understand, the lightsaber variants are limited to 1 blade, 2 blades, double blade. In WoW, you had axes, polearms, swords, maces, bows, etc.

 

So a dual-wielder would be able to dual-wield axes, swords, maces, etc.

 

It looks like there's a lot of variation looks wise with that but they all do the same damage. You simply don't have that with a lightsaber.

 

That's just the consequence of Star Wars.

[Garric]

So this is a looks issue? The gameplay still remains the same if you do that..

 

You have to understand, the lightsaber variants are limited to 1 blade, 2 blades, double blade. In WoW, you had axes, polearms, swords, maces, bows, etc.

 

So a dual-wielder would be able to dual-wield axes, swords, maces, etc.

 

It looks like there's a lot of variation looks wise with that but they all do the same damage. You simply don't have that with a lightsaber.

 

That's just the consequence of Star Wars.

 

It is looks. But I think the OP wants choice too. I maybe mistaken, it has been awhile since I playbed WoW. But I think you could be a warrior and you had a tree you choose to duel wield, and another to use a single weapon. You can't do that in SWTOR

[Sekhmit]

It is looks. But I think the OP wants choice too. I maybe mistaken, it has been awhile since I playbed WoW. But I think you could be a warrior and you had a tree you choose to duel wield, and another to use a single weapon. You can't do that in SWTOR

 

I do want choice, but looks would be a comprimise.

 

Choice is what keeps MMOs alive. Flexibility puts the RPG in MMORPG. That ability to tweak your character and mold it to fit your personal playstyle, that is the way of the RPG.

[Garric]

I do want choice, but looks would be a comprimise.

 

Choice is what keeps MMOs alive. Flexibility puts the RPG in MMORPG. That ability to tweak your character and mold it to fit your personal playstyle, that is the way of the RPG.

 

I agree, choice is good. I don't see the devs implementing something like you suggest though. Then you are going to have someone who "looks" like he is wielding 2 light sabers so appears to be a sentinel, when in reality could be a guardian with one. This kind of goes against their stated design goal of easily identifying classes.

 

I just think they took a different design approach. So I would not get my hopes up.

[BarefootVol]

Choice is what keeps MMOs alive. Flexibility puts the RPG in MMORPG. That ability to tweak your character and mold it to fit your personal playstyle, that is the way of the RPG.

 

 

That's from a min/max view point. Some would say that it's the story and choices that put the RP in RPG. I personally like that your choices matter a bit more. I chose my AC based on the role I want to perform, and I've learned how to play those roles with the tools the game gives me. People that complain about changing their AC always seem to come off a bit whiny. They told you what weapons you'd use when you made the decision, then told you that you couldn't change it. Why come and complain about a feature that wasn't exactly hidden from you?

 

As mentioned by some others in the thread, the weapon and armor design is meant to make you look distinct.

Edited January 23, 2012 by BarefootVol
spelling fail

[Sekhmit]

That's from a min/max view point. Some would say that it's the story and choices that put the RP in RPG. I personally like that your choices matter a bit more. I chose my AC based on the role I want to perform, and I've learned how to play those roles with the tools the game gives me. People that complain about changing their AC always seem to come off a bit whiny. They told you what weapons you'd use when you made the decision, then told you that you couldn't change it. Why come and complain about a feature that wasn't exactly hidden from you?

 

As mentioned by some others in the thread, the weapon and armor design is meant to make you look distinct.

 

I dont want a change of AC. Thats not the purpose. I want flexibility of class. I understand what the devs intended, but its a little shortsighted. There is nothing distinct about a Jedi or a Sith. In the SW universe there is no rule stated that a sentinel dual wields lightsabers. Would you rather have a distinct look, or a flexible and functional class? I think the latter is a tad more important dont you?

[ThuaThal]

Wait, I dont get it... You want to play marauder/serntinel but you dont want two sabers? Thats what they do.. Two sabers.

 

Want one saber for melee? Do a Juggernaut/Guardian and spec in one of the two dps threes. You just rolled wrong mate, accept it.

[greenmartin]

Agree with OP..

 

I felt exactly the same with my vanguard only being able to use rifles.

 

A special forces member that only knows how to use one type of gun...silly.

And boring when it comes to gameplay.

 

Especially considering how stats on items work in this game. Each item you get is better than the last in every way in a very linear way based on lvl. So the only meaningful difference is the slight graphic difference.

 

Simplification good. Oversimplification bad.

 

Simplification to the point you basically use one weapon the entire game which gets a stat upgrade every once in a while...horrible.

Reminds me of ME2.

 

I just don't care about gear unless it has expertise on it at this point. It's all meaningless.

Edited January 24, 2012 by greenmartin