Should all GTN be cross faction?

[ErikModi]

Yes, yes, for the love of god, allah, and the flying spaghetti monster, yes!!!!!

[Genisaurus]

For those who don't know:

 

The Hutt Trade Network is cross faction. Listings posted at the terminals in Nar Shaddaa can be viewed/purchased by both Imperials and the Republic.

 

I think that the current implementation of Cross-Faction GTN terminals makes them irrelevant. As has been pointed out, almost nobody goes to Nar Shaddaa unless they have to. The only goods it is better to sell on Nar Shaddaa than elsewhere are schematics for the opposite faction. I am of the opinion that either all GTN terminals should be cross-faction, or none of them should be. I also like the idea of having a tax or embargo fee attached to goods sold by the opposite faction.

 

That being said, crafters and sellers should not, under any circumstances ask for cross-server trading networks. Simply put, regardless of the rarity of an item, increasing the number of producers drives down the price. For example, let's suppose I am able to craft an Exactitude Carbon Fiber Vest, which is a Tier-2 prefix on a level 49 item. That takes a lot of Reverse-Engineering to get, and the materials cost alone, not including those required to RE the schematic are at least 4000 credits. Suppose I am the only seller of this piece of equipment, and I decide to list it for 30,000 credits. If my server has 10,000 players on my faction, I have that many potential customers, and I am the only producer. I can set the price, and the onus to accept that deal is on the customer. Whether the server the server collectively decides my price is too high or low is irrelevant.

 

A cross-server GTN though means that if there is at least 1 producer per server, all of a sudden I am competing with, what, 100 other people? and my consumer base has grown at a similar rate. Now when I make a listing of my item I can be undercut, and the person who undercuts me can be undercut, etc. etc. This will continue until the item is selling for exactly what it costs to produce, or less. This is great for the people shopping for a Tier-2 purple chestpiece, but it gives no incentive to me to create the item. The same principle works for Mission Skill materials - prices will drop so steeply to the production-cost that it would be ruinous to the game's economy.

 

Real-markets are a good comparison here. What I am saying might sound very close to, "I want a monopoly on Synthweaving." And that would be similar to what I am saying, and everyone knows monopolies are bad for reasons X, Y and Z. And what are reasons X, Y and Z? well for one, they raise the startup costs for competitors to the point where entering a market becomes next to impossible. In SWTOR though, this is impossible. Becoming a Synthweaver simply requires talking to a skill trainer, and the costs to get from 1 to 400 are the same for everybody, no matter how much the finished good sells for. So having fewer producers doesn't hurt there.

 

Unlike real markets however, there is NO barrier to entry into any market (or rather, the only cost is the opportunity cost of losing whatever skill you already have, plus the cost of raising that skill up - which is minimal). Imagine a world for example, where everyone in the world can afford to buy a refrigerator that will work forever. Why would anyone buy an infini-fridge you made, when they can make their own? The only reason infinitely-lasting-goods skills like Synthweaving, Armormech, etc. are able to make any kind of a profit is because other people are too lazy to do the work themselves. This isn't a bad thing, but it does mean that the fewer people involved in the equation means there are fewer people willing to take the initiative to produce these goods, which means these skills can remain more profitable.

 

tl;dr: You might think cross-server GTN's means you have more people to buy your stuff, but it also means you have more competition and you won't be able to sell your stuff for diddly squat.

[x_Boots_x]

Yes it should be should be cross faction, and also there should be auction terminals on all planets as well, its one of the major issues in this game, a free flowing non restrictive economic system is the lifeblood of a great MMO (and this one is both restrictive and rudimentary)

[StealthStalker]

As mentioned above... the Nar Shadda GTN is already cross-faction. Edited January 23, 2012 by StealthStalker

[Sun-Runner]

I would love for all GTN terminals to be both cross-faction and cross-server.

 

Cross-faction allows me to sell my republic-only stuff to the republic and them to sell their empire-only stuff to the empire.

 

Cross-server allows the low pop servers to have an active economy; thereby making it a viable option to play there if one prefers to have less people around.

[Genisaurus]

Cross-server allows the low pop servers to have an active economy; thereby making it a viable option to play there if one prefers to have less people around.

 

You might think that, but you'd be wrong. You'd be able to buy whatever you want, but you would never be able to make a profit on anything you sell. There's no incentive to craft/sell anything with cross-server marketplaces, because there's too much competition. That's not an active or healthy economy.

 

You don't get to eat your cake and have it too. If you want the social benefits of a high-pop server (like a well-stocked AH), move to a high-pop server or wait for server merges. If you want to play with fewer people, accept the consequences of playing with fewer people.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Genisaurus

[Sun-Runner]

You might think that, but you'd be wrong. You'd be able to buy whatever you want, but you would never be able to make a profit on anything you sell. There's no incentive to craft/sell anything with cross-server marketplaces, because there's too much competition. That's not an active or healthy economy.

 

You don't get to eat your cake and have it too. If you want the social benefits of a high-pop server (like a well-stocked AH), move to a high-pop server or wait for server merges. If you want to play with fewer people, accept the consequences of playing with fewer people.

 

I have played in a MMO that has cross-server cross-faction market. It works nicely, and without the downsides you're suggesting. You've heard of City of Heroes?

[Genisaurus]

I have played in a MMO that has cross-server cross-faction market. It works nicely, and without the downsides you're suggesting. You've heard of City of Heroes?

 

The consignment house is cross-server, but not cross-faction AFAIK. Furthermore, it uses the secret-bid system, which diminishes/removes the incentive for sellers to lower prices to undercut each other by too much.

 

First off, the seller sets the sale amount, but the buyer cannot see that when they make their bid. as long as their bid is meets the asking price, they get the item, but they might exceed it. If two people sell the same item, the lowest-asked-price item sells first.

 

Secondly, a buyer can see a history of what an item has sold for in the past, so they have an idea of how much to bid.

 

So lets say you have Player A and Player B, both trying to sell Item Z. Item Z commonly sells for about $300.

 

Player A lists Item Z for $350, hoping to make more. Player B lists for 290, hoping to undercut the average. The buyer bids $310, because he wants to guarantee he gets the item. Getting the item for the average price is more important than risking the item over a discount. Because he bid at least the lowest asked price, he buy's Player B's auction. Player B makes $20 over his asking price, and the most-recently-sold-for price gets updated from $300 to $310. The next buyer see's that the item last sold for $310, and $300 before that, indicating that prices are rising. He bases his bids, and future sellers set their asking prices accordingly.

 

This means that prices can still increase for an item, even though sellers are trying to marginally undercut each other. A buyer can try to "guess" whether an item is being sold for an undercutting price, but unless they guess the proper amount they won't win the auction.

 

Therefore, CoH's Consignment House actually encourages prices to RISE slowly or remain stable, even with competition. SWTOR does not have this system, and so CoH is not an appropriate comparison.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Genisaurus

[Sun-Runner]

The consignment house is cross-server, but not cross-faction AFAIK.

It is both cross-server and cross-faction.

 

Furthermore, it uses the secret-bid system, which diminishes/removes the incentive for sellers to lower prices to undercut each other by too much.

 

First off, the seller sets the sale amount, but the buyer cannot see that when they make their bid. as long as their bid is meets the asking price, they get the item, but they might exceed it. If two people sell the same item, the lowest-asked-price item sells first.

 

Secondly, a buyer can see a history of what an item has sold for in the past, so they have an idea of how much to bid.

 

So lets say you have Player A and Player B, both trying to sell Item Z. Item Z commonly sells for about $300.

 

Player A lists Item Z for $350, hoping to make more. Player B lists for 290, hoping to undercut the average. The buyer bids $310, meaning he buy's Player B's auction. Player B makes $20 over his asking price, and the most-recently-sold-for price gets updated from $300 to $310.

 

This means that prices can still increase for an item, even though sellers are trying to marginally undercut each other. A buyer can try to "guess" whether an item is being sold for an undercutting price, but unless they guess the proper amount they won't win the auction.

I'm rather aware, yes. Its' fun hitting the per-character influence cap the first couple times; then it just gets annoying. PvP IOs make a working currency at that point.

 

Therefore, CoH's Consignment House actually encourages prices to RISE slowly or remain stable, even with competition. SWTOR does not have this system, and so CoH is not an appropriate comparison.

Maybe.

 

I provided a working example of a cross-faction and cross-server market without the downsides you are suggesting. If the best way to achieve that purpose (cross-faction and cross-server market) requires us to change how the GTN functions ... well ... we want them to change how the GTN functions already even if it doesn't go cross-faction or cross-server.

 

I don't see making further changes so as to avoid potential downsides to be prohibitive.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Sun-Runner

[LilTikiBoy]

You might think that, but you'd be wrong. You'd be able to buy whatever you want, but you would never be able to make a profit on anything you sell. There's no incentive to craft/sell anything with cross-server marketplaces, because there's too much competition. That's not an active or healthy economy.

 

You don't get to eat your cake and have it too. If you want the social benefits of a high-pop server (like a well-stocked AH), move to a high-pop server or wait for server merges. If you want to play with fewer people, accept the consequences of playing with fewer people.

 

how do you figure this? yes you would have twice as many people posting items on the GTN by making it cross faction so you would have more competition, but you would also have twice as many people buy items off of it as well. the only true difference it would make is instead of 2 half dead markets, you would have 1 fuctional one.

 

as many a few people have pointed out, some servers are on the low end of the population scale, combine this with population imbalances in between the factions and whatever side is lacking gets shafted. having the GTN go cross faction would make it so the state of your economy isnt based on the size of your faction but by the overall population on your server.

[Lukeia]

I agree with an earlier poster, that they just need to make the one on Nar-Shaddaa more accessible...like a ticket or a shuttle...and it needs to be advertised in game more that it reaches both factions. Have a quest line introduce it or several npcs mention it or something. I also think it would be nice to be able to at least speak to the other faction. A trooper and an agent might not have anything nice to say to each other...but they would probably say something...

[Wolph_]

I would love this. But then I also think we should be able to communicate with the other side - not being able to is dumb.

 

You can communicate with the other faction. Next time you're near the opposite faction, use the /say channel. You can talk all day long.

[Darth_Gao_Gao]

i think that revamping the GTN interface is the first priority. oh, and putting a GTN node in one's ship or something that makes it more accessible to everyone... after that occurs, and more people start using it, can we more accurately see if a cross faction gtn is even needed. afterall, if every gtn was cross faction, it would remove the uniqueness of nar shaddaa, which isn't something i'm into.

[Urrumi]

oh, and putting a GTN node in one's ship or something that makes it more accessible to everyone...

 

Oh, now that is a fun idea! We have instantaneous intra-galactic communication and warp travel, I think we'd have tech equivalent to an ebay app on an iphone on our space-age space machines. Fully support this! I could see it being only for viewing or bidding purposes only for the ship, might need the physical terminal to put in the goods to post up. But yeah, great idea Gao Gao!

[Master_Taikuri]

i think that revamping the GTN interface is the first priority. oh, and putting a GTN node in one's ship or something that makes it more accessible to everyone... after that occurs, and more people start using it, can we more accurately see if a cross faction gtn is even needed. afterall, if every gtn was cross faction, it would remove the uniqueness of nar shaddaa, which isn't something i'm into.

 

Cross Faction = a yes from me!

 

Every mailbox should be a GTN terminal too.

Rep/Imp GTN terminals should be cheap for restricted listing (only to their own faction) or expensive for open listing.

Hutt GTN terminals (actual terminals not the mailbox ones suggested above) should always be open listing, should be middle of the road cost and should provide quicker receipt of credit from sale to encourage their use.

 

Cross Server = a reluctant yes from me.

 

I can imagine that being cross server would reduce the price gouging monopoly sellers but it may not simply because increased market size with no reference of previous sales could mean that prices stay high (e.g. more chance someone will find that high price palatable and buy it).

Cross server would increase the pool of available materials but may also mean those mats sell really quick.

[RyderrUK]

Not having a trade system that works will eventually lose subs as more people reach 50 and want to play around and start hoarding cash - as all mmo players do.

 

We live in a capitalist society and therefore our definition of success = wealth, and this is also reflected in mmos.

 

As it stands the whole GLN needs a revamp - but the main change that is needed is for ALL gtn points to be neutral.

[norbo]

They could just put a hutta gtn on each orbital station (make a shady guy nearby and give some lore explenation) and voila, problem solved. Edited January 24, 2012 by norbo

[Biowraith]

It is both cross-server and cross-faction.

 

The interesting thing about CoH's market is it didn't used to be cross-faction. It was always cross-server, but for a long time it was faction specific, and there were regular forum arguments about whether that needed to change or not. Those wanting it to become cross-faction were arguing that it'd improve things for the smaller population (villains), while those who didn't were saying the opposite - that the smaller population would suffer because they were now competing with a larger, richer population (heroes).

 

Eventually the devs decided to make the change, and it turned out to be a pretty good thing for both sides. Prices changed, certainly, but it wasn't a uniform thing - some items went up, some went down. But overall it was an improvement if only due to the increased flow of market traffic - things actually started moving where previously many items (especially for the villains) could languish for weeks without anyone buying (or conversely, people would be waiting weeks for the item they wanted to appear for sale).

 

 

So yeah, +1 to wanting the GTN to be both cross-faction and cross-server. If there's other changes needed to make that work (crafting in general still needs an overhaul, for one), then make those too. But overall that change would get the market moving, get sales flowing more frequently, and help out those smaller servers & factions where there's just not enough people buying and selling to have a workable economy. The more people participating in the market, the better, so segregate it as little as possible.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Biowraith

[Rivad]

I can live with Nar Shaddaa being the only place where I can sell items to the other faction (although it rules out sales of lower level items as people only reach Nar shaddaa once they're around level 20). As an imperial crafter I am appaled by a vast choice of weapons that cant be used by my faction or armors that require 'jedi knight' and 'smuggler' to wear them and are for level 15 - too low for nar shaddaa.

 

Either don't give us these schemes (through both vendors and random drops/crit rolls), or let us sell!

 

Besides I would absolutely love the unified 'galactic' trade network for all of my faction's planets! Its really annoying to have to travel to different planets if I want to sell items of particular level to players. So far the fleet seems most reasonable (and the biggest market), but I can think of the potential buyers I'm missing simply because I'm not listing in Kaas city.

[Callo]

I want to know why they don't make the HTN more accessible when they have schematics for one side exclusively for crafting. I have a schematic I want to sell that is for Sith... No one on Republic seems to want it and I'll probly end up vendoring it. What a sad waste.

[Arandrell]

I can live with Nar Shaddaa being the only place where I can sell items to the other faction (although it rules out sales of lower level items as people only reach Nar shaddaa once they're around level 20). As an imperial crafter I am appaled by a vast choice of weapons that cant be used by my faction or armors that require 'jedi knight' and 'smuggler' to wear them and are for level 15 - too low for nar shaddaa.

 

Either don't give us these schemes (through both vendors and random drops/crit rolls), or let us sell!

 

Besides I would absolutely love the unified 'galactic' trade network for all of my faction's planets! Its really annoying to have to travel to different planets if I want to sell items of particular level to players. So far the fleet seems most reasonable (and the biggest market), but I can think of the potential buyers I'm missing simply because I'm not listing in Kaas city.

 

I think it could work well from a user point of view if the Hutt trade network terminals could see both other lists, and the other lists could see the hutt one.

 

That way if you wanted to sell to both sides you went to hutt space, but the buyer could be on any terminal.

 

Possibly a nightmare for the devs/server to handle tho.

[Sky_walkerPL]

They could just put a hutta gtn on each orbital station (make a shady guy nearby and give some lore explenation) and voila, problem solved.

 

Another solution, proposed dozens of times, was to put hutt GTN in every location full of scums, or related to hutts. That is: Tatooine cities, various locations through Nar Shadaa (not just one), various locations in Quesh (Hutt palace without hutt GTN?! How can it be?!).

 

Additionally some Hutt GTN hubs could be placed in enemy camps territory, but inside some homes/etc, where you would need to use elevator to get into it (to avoid people luring mobs on other folks tho trade). Say: Balmorra could have GTNs in such locations.

 

This would solve two problems at a time: Lack of GTN hubs, and lack of people using neutral hub.

 

 

But adding neutral hug on space station would essentially erase the faction-specific hubs. I really wouldn't like to see this ever happening. Perhaps if these would be on VIP longe, accessible only for CE owners or people with 1.5 M than it could work, but I don't see this happening in any other form.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Sky_walkerPL

[ColonelKer-Nal]

That being said, crafters and sellers should not, under any circumstances ask for cross-server trading networks. Simply put, regardless of the rarity of an item, increasing the number of producers drives down the price. For example, let's suppose I am able to craft an Exactitude Carbon Fiber Vest, which is a Tier-2 prefix on a level 49 item. That takes a lot of Reverse-Engineering to get, and the materials cost alone, not including those required to RE the schematic are at least 4000 credits. Suppose I am the only seller of this piece of equipment, and I decide to list it for 30,000 credits. If my server has 10,000 players on my faction, I have that many potential customers, and I am the only producer. I can set the price, and the onus to accept that deal is on the customer. Whether the server the server collectively decides my price is too high or low is irrelevant.

 

Stuff and nonsense.

 

The ratio of buyers to sellers does not change, game wide. The only thing that changes is is that a cross server GTN provides a large enough statistical universe to ensure there isn't a shortage on Server A while there's a glut on Server B.

 

Given, as stated in my previous post, that the PRNG in this (and most other) games stinks on ice, this benefits the buyers AND the sellers. Sure, you may not be able to charge an extortionate price on Server A any more, but you'll be able to charge a fair market value. Bonus, on Server B (where 10 guys end up with the same ultra rare schematic) they are not all screwed since, statistically speaking, they will have the same size market as everyone else.

Edited January 24, 2012 by ColonelKer-Nal

[LilTikiBoy]

Oh, now that is a fun idea! We have instantaneous intra-galactic communication and warp travel, I think we'd have tech equivalent to an ebay app on an iphone on our space-age space machines. Fully support this! I could see it being only for viewing or bidding purposes only for the ship, might need the physical terminal to put in the goods to post up. But yeah, great idea Gao Gao!

 

this is actually an interesting idea. i know i hate having to go to the lag fest that is the fleet GTN. putting it on the ship would definetly help in that regaurds as well as making it much more accessable, instead of constantly having to go back to fleet just to post a few items and head back out.

 

they gave us all our own personal ships for a reason, why not give us a few more reasons to use it...... and for that matter why cant i get my mail on my ship?!?!?!? this isnt the 20th century damnit!!

Edited January 24, 2012 by LilTikiBoy

[Irongut]

crafters and sellers should not, under any circumstances ask for cross-server trading networks.

 

<snip>

 

tl;dr: You might think cross-server GTN's means you have more people to buy your stuff, but it also means you have more competition and you won't be able to sell your stuff for diddly squat.

 

I disagree. The market works fine in EVE Online which does not have spearate servers, instances, shards, etc. All players can access the market regardles of faction, rl location or language. I've made billions from industry and trade in EVE and the economy is one of its strengths. They even have an economist who writes quarterly reports analysing the in-game economy. Sure common items often sell for cost or minimal profit but if you build more unusual items or monitor prices and pick the right time to build you can make a killing.

 

A better way of selling drops that are useless to your faction than the Nar Shadda market is required. The Nar Shadda market is useless and I was unable to sell anything there even though I tried for several days, reposting sales when they expired. I would like to see all the market terminals connected, preferably with other servers in the same region too. An extra comission for selling to / buying from the other faction would be acceptable and perhaps this could be waived if you use the termnals on Nar Shadda.