chosen_silver Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 a guy somewhere suggested a minimum range of like 6 meters for missile/grav , wich is actually smart imo, and would have those classe play a tad smarter without nerfing them too much. I am a Gunnery Commando, and I approve this message. 6 meters seems a tad far though. Having never played a melee character I am not sure how close they have to be for their specials, but a gunner/merc should have the min distance just on the outside of that to give some actual purpose to our knock backs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biboonz Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 melee range is 4 meters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chosen_silver Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) At best, a reduction in crit damage as parently all tracer missle attacks crit. About the armor penetration.. it's 55% which equates to a 2.7% dmg increase. It's not the cell or cylinder that is the problem. Personally I have never seen a grav round do more than 1800 (that that being a crit). Tracer rounds I have seen consistently do 2000-2500. If Grav round did that much I'd have never switched to assault. I didn't even know tracer was supposed to be the equivalent to grav round until resently. Either way those attacks are supposed to be filler to finish the CD on the main DPS attacks. Full auto and demo round for commandos. As well as increasing high impact bolts dmg. If a player can win while spamming a prepatory abilities then something is wrong. I know I could never do enough damage with grav round to warrent using it over full auto, HIB or demo round and I've never lost a 1vs1 fight (vs a non-expertised). I am not sure how you could consider grav round to be a filler while waiting on full auto and demo round, since those abilities work best with getting a CoF proc or having 4-5 stacks of vortex. It could be all in the wording, but as it is you would be gimping yourself if you are using demo or full auto without prepping with grav rounds first. Edited January 23, 2012 by chosen_silver effing auto correct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chosen_silver Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 melee range is 4 meters. Then to me it would seem perfect to have grav round also have a min distance of 4 meters. Melee's job is to get inside that since they don't have the option to LoS as much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mutee Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) I find it pretty odd all these folks saying to get out of LOS, surely if you are a melee, within melee range of the BH he should be the one running away. It's pretty stupid that a primarily ranged class has no disadvantage doing damage from both long and point blank range. Sure by all means break it to avoid damage when you are attacking someone else, or heading to an objective but breaking it when you need to kill them just allows them to kite you more easily or escape. The damage is too much for too little, sure you can interrupt and cc but they will cc you also, and after all is said and done it is still a very close call even with equally geared melee getting in close. The fact they have heavy armour and superb sustained damage doesn't help either. What a load of bull, if you can't beat a merc 1v1v you're bad. Also, having a min range would make mercs next to useless. Edited January 23, 2012 by mutee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daecollo Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Then to me it would seem perfect to have grav round also have a min distance of 4 meters. Melee's job is to get inside that since they don't have the option to LoS as much. Yes, because Artillery needs to be fired from melee in real life! makes sense bro. How about they just make Tracer Missile/Grav Round be fired from a reticle instead of just a target. Edited January 23, 2012 by Daecollo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biboonz Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 i mainly say that because i'm against heavy nerfing as i've seen it happen too many time and it makes the general balance spiral downhill. slight change that differenciate the good from the bads are what is needed. like i said anyway a spammer if spotted can be killed easily , especially since those 2 spells are interruptible and silencable. My spec has a 4 second silence on a 6 second cooldown and boy do i use it on this guys as soon as i see them. The consistent damage a guy spamming those skills can do seems unfair but if you let him do it then it's also your fault in a way. Pvp is also about figuring out who needs to be killed first , adapting to every enemy group setup and reacting accordingly, and the fact that this is a changing aspect in every wz is what makes it fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Migrayn Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Sustained damage. Sustained. Damage. That's the ony thing Gunnery and Assault is good at. The Commando grabs a spot, sets up a camp, plants himself into the ground, and starts shooting. Mobility? None. Knockbacks? One (and a laughable 4m knockback in Stockstrike, if perked). Stuns? One. Dashes, jumps, pulls and speed buffs? None. Interrupts? None. Snares? None. We do damage. Sustained damage. Our burst? Yeah, that requires considerable sustain as well, because you first have to stack a few buffs on yourself, a few debuffs on the target, and then make sure noone interrupts you, LoSs you, stuns you, vanishes on you, heals or shields the target, or kills you. Keep these simple facts in mind before you shout about nerfing Tracer/Grav/AP Cell or Cylinder again. Thank you for your time. Wow keep in mind the only thing ops were good at is burst. That was taken away. To be fair you need to loose your easymode arnor penetration. They cant say OPs armor penatration at 50% was too much but yours at 60% is not. Lets have some balance here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daecollo Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 i mainly say that because i'm against heavy nerfing as i've seen it happen too many time and it makes the general balance spiral downhill. slight change that differenciate the good from the bads are what is needed. like i said anyway a spammer if spotted can be killed easily , especially since those 2 spells are interruptible and silencable. My spec has a 4 second silence on a 6 second cooldown and boy do i use it on this guys as soon as i see them. The consistent damage a guy spamming those skills can do seems unfair but if you let him do it then it's also your fault in a way. Pvp is also about figuring out who needs to be killed first , adapting to every enemy group setup and reacting accordingly, and the fact that this is a changing aspect in every wz is what makes it fun. Its consistant damage.. its not bursty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biboonz Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Yes, because Artillery needs to be fired from melee in real life! makes sense bro. How about they just make Tracer Missile/Grav Round be fired from a reticle instead of just a target. bringing real life comparisons on the table while talking about a game happening in the past future with all sorts of physics bending being comon is win btw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chosen_silver Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Yes, because Artillery needs to be fired from melee in real life! makes sense bro. What? Not sure you understand, "bro". I'm saying that grav round should only be able to be used on a target that is more than 4 meters away, rather than being able to use it on someone that is standing in your face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kakokun Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Commandos/Mercenaries are only strong when you ignore them. They're incredibly easy kills for any class with an interrupt. The biggest problem is when there's multiple of them at the same time. Edited January 23, 2012 by Kakokun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biboonz Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Its consistant damage.. its not bursty. did i say it was bursty ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nnamite Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) LMAO love this OP, he is probably as useless as **** on a boar hog in pvp poor fella Edited January 23, 2012 by nnamite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daecollo Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Vanguard/Marauder can lock a commando down with chain interrupts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierDuke Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Link in my signature is all thats really needed. I know, greatest video EVER! I simply love that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealBoz Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Wow keep in mind the only thing ops were good at is burst. That was taken away. To be fair you need to loose your easymode arnor penetration. They cant say OPs armor penatration at 50% was too much but yours at 60% is not. Lets have some balance here. Burst is OK. Burst that kills someone while chainstunned with no chance to react? Not OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biboonz Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Burst is OK. Burst that kills someone while chainstunned with no chance to react? Not OK. there the problem is the management of CC stacking , and resolve not working as it should. not really burst dmg. If you're refering to OP/scound , not many can really destroy you within their stuns if you have equivalent gear to them. There is these few names that will come to mind on my server of skilled players with those classes that will destroy me , but the majority get me down to 60% and then they have to run away from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kunari Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Sustained damage. Sustained. Damage. That's the ony thing Gunnery and Assault is good at. The Commando grabs a spot, sets up a camp, plants himself into the ground, and starts shooting. Mobility? None. Knockbacks? One (and a laughable 4m knockback in Stockstrike, if perked). Stuns? One. Dashes, jumps, pulls and speed buffs? None. Interrupts? None. Snares? None. We do damage. Sustained damage. Our burst? Yeah, that requires considerable sustain as well, because you first have to stack a few buffs on yourself, a few debuffs on the target, and then make sure noone interrupts you, LoSs you, stuns you, vanishes on you, heals or shields the target, or kills you. Keep these simple facts in mind before you shout about nerfing Tracer/Grav/AP Cell or Cylinder again. Thank you for your time. ^- That. I normally hate bumping this kind of thread but that was so well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zizzefex Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 And lest we forget, Bioware are nerfing Flechette Round and Acid Blade, both 31 point talents that grant 50% armor pen (and the only armor pen that a Scoundrel/Ops gets) for 6 seconds down to 30% for 6 seconds because they think 50% armor pen for 6 seconds is too much..... To be fair... the DoT debuff Fleshette Round puts on the enemy lasts 6 seconds... but Flechette Round also puts a buff on you for the armor pen which actually lasts like 15 seconds so it never really falls off if you keep reapplying it every 9 seconds if you can Backblast every 9 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dayshadow Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 (edited) I am not sure how you could consider grav round to be a filler while waiting on full auto and demo round, since those abilities work best with getting a CoF proc or having 4-5 stacks of vortex. It could be all in the wording, but as it is you would be gimping yourself if you are using demo or full auto without prepping with grav rounds first. I open with full auto, demo and HIB. Then spam grav round until full auto triggers or demo or HIB is ready. Depending on how things go a cryo grenade, stockstrike or concussive blast could work it's way in there. I have never lost 1 vs 1. (vs fellow non-expertise) You do more damage firing them off when they become available than waiting for 5 vortexes. You may do more dmg in a single attack, but damage over time you will be doing more if you don't wait for 5 charges. Besides, it will charge to 5 either way for demo. High impact bolt at 5 vs 3 is a difference of 0.7% damage. Not worth holding off for for a single attack on a 15min CD. Now in PvE against elites and champs you may have a case, but not PvP. Also , armor penetration isn't as great as people think it is. Armor at 100% only accounts for 4.7% damage reduction per hit vs an equally leveled opponent. Edited January 24, 2012 by Dayshadow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gluefoot Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 -woosh- thats the sound this thread made and it becomes extremely clear you are not reading anything that was written. I'll bolden this for you so it sticks... 60% potential consistent armor pen for ZERO investment vs 40% potential consistent armor pen on a melee class through deep investment into a sharded tree as the closest possible consistent figure and also belonging to a tank class that does not have great sustained damage. How many stuns does that class get? One for free, two if deeply invested in the defence/immortal tree however they then cannot get 40% armor pen and a pbaoe mez. How many knockbacks? one and one alone. How many defensive skills? one for free (saber ward) a second with talent investment into the defence tree which again, they come up short of being able to get 40% armor pen. This isn't about "consistent damage" that is such a false claim so stop throwing it around. This is about the fact that you get 60% armor pen for Zero investment whereas no other class pairing comes even close to it and the one that does for 6 whole seconds is getting a nerf because 50% is regarded as too much in Biowares eyes. Come on wake up! face the facts! Zero investment vs massive investment, you cannot justify this no matter how many "facts" you try to bring up! Um, Zero Investment? Grav/Tracer requires 11 points into the skill tree. So unless you consider 11 points "free" I would consider re-thinking your argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gluefoot Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Nope. New attack. Sorta replaces it, but the way it should work is that charged bolts should be your filler after you debuff a target up with Grav Rounds. Then it might actually be a balanced spec. I agree with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gluefoot Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 +25 actually, tracer missle/grav round stacks up to 5 times at 5% per stack, nice try though. It stacks at 4%. Try reading next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gluefoot Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 That.....is my point. It shouldn't do all that AND be your main nuke. Your main nuke should be charged bolts so that you aren't just spamming grav round and seeing little loss because of it. If you actually look at the tree, you'll start to notice some talents also refer to charged bolts (even the ones above grav round like curtain of fire). You have to wonder....why are they there if Grav Round is supposed to completely replace Charged bolts? I don't think it is supposed to replace Charged Bolts at all. That is why I believe the spec is simply not functioning correctly. Seems to me if your charged bolts have a 30% chance to trigger curtain of fire, the only possible reason for that is that Charged Bolts was intended to be the main nuke and not Grav Round. It would make the spec make a lot more sense personally. You can actually maked CB better with weapon damage, but Grav only gets better with aim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts