"No Man's Sands". Did we learn nothing from Warhammer?

[Slamz]

For those who haven't done it, there's a quest to go to the PvP zone in Tatooine. I went there.

 

There.

Is.

Nothing.

There.

 

No content what-so-ever.

 

Just basically an empty area. "Here you go, PvPers! Enjoy!"

 

 

 

Hey sarlacc-holes, PvPers like content too. You know, things to kill each other over? Some reason to be there? Would you create a PvE zone that was just a big open area with maybe a couple pointless mobs standing around? No, because that would suck and be boring.

 

And so it is for your open world PvP content. There is no content. It's just some dirt. Your content is bad and you should feel bad.

[Noleader]

I do like the fact you compare it to PvE... for some reason developers don't seem to understand that PvPers like to have objectives to go for that are persistent. A real reason to care about the war going on and not just kill people.

 

If PvP was just about killing other players every game that had free for all PvP servers (no factions) would have had those servers loaded to the point of crashing.. by no surprise those servers are normally a small group of people.

[dannythefool]

The real pvp area on Tatooine is the balloon, although that's only in a pvp zone on pvp servers. But there you go, an actual objective, and it kind of hurts if you get force waved out of the balloon or from the sand crawler. If there was a box with valor and commendations next to the datacrons, it would be perfect Edited January 23, 2012 by dannythefool

[Slamz]

Yeah I don't get why so many developers think that PvP has not evolved past "deathmatch".

 

Yeah Deathmatch was great.

 

IN 1996.

 

PvE has taken great strides since the days of UO and Everquest. There are quests, they are a whole lot better than they used to be, they are integrated into the map, now they even talk to you and give you choices to respond with. There's faction and loot and puzzles and a million man hours of development put into it.

 

For PvP we have.... Quake. Basically. From 1996. That's all you get. Intern Steve knocked it out in a week and that was with leaving early Friday for beers.

 

I don't see where it's so much to ask that we maybe get a step beyond "here's a big blank area" for PvP content.

[shocwave]

everyone is in a space station standing around a quest machine, when there is planets. Who thought this was going to be fun, I thought for sure there was going to be battles on tat and hoth, what we got was a stick shoved up our ***** , here ya go puppets pay your 15 buck!! Edited January 23, 2012 by Sireene
lang

[Vis-Tecum]

I do like the fact you compare it to PvE... for some reason developers don't seem to understand that PvPers like to have objectives to go for that are persistent. A real reason to care about the war going on and not just kill people.

 

If PvP was just about killing other players every game that had free for all PvP servers (no factions) would have had those servers loaded to the point of crashing.. by no surprise those servers are normally a small group of people.

 

ha... hows illum working out? all the problems there all revolve around rewards and farming them insted of doing pvp i am glad outlaws den isnt like this

 

it is exactly what they said - a set space for open free for all pvp that the players can go to do whatever they want

 

because people are lame and wont do anything unless it gives them a quick reward noone goes there

 

personally I love it (but i also like illum the way it is right now) it is like a personal hide out for me and my friends to mess around and it has a mailbox, AH, and cargo hold. if anyone comes in they better be prepared...

Edited January 23, 2012 by Vis-Tecum

[MorgonKara]

I hope they put in some bases to flip or something like that.

[Slamz]

because people are lame and wont do anything unless it gives them a quick reward noone goes there

 

I don't go there because Ilum is f'n stupid.

 

Just some tragically simple goals set up in a straight line with no progression or sense of accomplishment between them. I knock down your walkers, you knock down my walkers, I knock down your walkers, you knock down my walkers and nobody really cares.

 

 

You call that PvP content? I call it lame. If PvE consisted of one zone with like 5 objectives in it and you had to go back and forth and do them over and over again, they'd say "This game sucks" and quit within a week. Yet somehow PvPers are supposed to do that

FOR MONTHS.

[Tiresias]

For those who haven't done it, there's a quest to go to the PvP zone in Tatooine. I went there.

 

There.

Is.

Nothing.

There.

 

No content what-so-ever.

 

Just basically an empty area. "Here you go, PvPers! Enjoy!"

 

 

 

Hey sarlacc-holes, PvPers like content too. You know, things to kill each other over? Some reason to be there? Would you create a PvE zone that was just a big open area with maybe a couple pointless mobs standing around? No, because that would suck and be boring.

 

And so it is for your open world PvP content. There is no content. It's just some dirt. Your content is bad and you should feel bad.

 

Join date: November 2011.

 

Ahhh.... That explains it.

 

Those of us who have been around for a while remember when this area had something in it -- namely chests and Slicing lockboxes. It was HEAVILY exploited.

 

They tried to make changes to cut down on the exploits, but it didn't help. They could not find a balance between putting something worthwhile in the chest to encourage people to go fight over them and not having the reward be so amazing that people would park alts there to loot the chests repeatedly at off-peak hours.

 

So they just pulled everything out.

 

They plan to put the chests back in the future with them containing Mercenary Commendations. They actually SAID this recently in a Dev Blog.

 

So have some patience -- changes are coming. I'm glad they didn't hold up releasing the game over these little issues, since 85% of the content is fully-functional and FUN.

 

It's an MMO. These games grow over time. Try not to freak out in the meantime.

[TalkingDinosaur]

i don't go there because ilum is f'n stupid.

 

Just some tragically simple goals set up in a straight line with no progression or sense of accomplishment between them. I knock down your walkers, you knock down my walkers, i knock down your walkers, you knock down my walkers and nobody really cares.

 

 

You call that pvp content? I call it lame. If pve consisted of one zone with like 5 objectives in it and you had to go back and forth and do them over and over again, they'd say "this game sucks" and quit within a week. Yet somehow pvpers are supposed to do that

for months.

I love BIG text. Makes me feel POWERFUL.

[Hobnobb]

Join date: November 2011.

 

Ahhh.... That explains it.

 

Those of us who have been around for a while remember when this area had something in it -- namely chests and Slicing lockboxes. It was HEAVILY exploited.

 

They tried to make changes to cut down on the exploits, but it didn't help. They could not find a balance between putting something worthwhile in the chest to encourage people to go fight over them and not having the reward be so amazing that people would park alts there to loot the chests repeatedly at off-peak hours.

 

So they just pulled everything out.

 

They plan to put the chests back in the future with them containing Mercenary Commendations. They actually SAID this recently in a Dev Blog.

 

So have some patience -- changes are coming. I'm glad they didn't hold up releasing the game over these little issues, since 85% of the content is fully-functional and FUN.

 

It's an MMO. These games grow over time. Try not to freak out in the meantime.

 

Great post.

[Slamz]

So have some patience -- changes are coming.

 

Chests.

 

Really.

 

Wow.

 

That's your idea of PvP content is it. Boxes. On the ground. I think that might actually be a step backwards from Quake. So basically PvE content is fantastic as long as it's just a big area with some chests. Nobody really cares about quests or progression or immersion, they just need some things to kill and some chests. No? Then why think that PvPers will enjoy that.

 

 

Well that was okay for EQ1. It's basically what that game was. Some random NPCs wandering around and stuff to loot.

 

That's a great game design if you're from 1999. That's when EQ1 launched.

 

 

So you're telling me that in an upcoming release, devs are going to bring PvP up to date with concepts from the year 1999. Well we are really moving forward here. At this rate, we'll be up to DAOC standards by 2014.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Slamz

[RicR]

I enjoy PVP more then anything, Warhammer DAoC EQ none of these games to me were appealing in anyway and don't compare to SWTOR.

 

I like having a world pvp enviroment thats a free for all more or less. Don't need rewards medals commidations just a place to fight. I think Tatoonie's pvp area is a great part of the game just as ilum is. I PVP for the fun not the gear or credits.

[DarthVarrak]

Chests.

 

Really.

 

Wow.

 

That's your idea of PvP content is it. Boxes. On the ground. I think that might actually be a step backwards from Quake. So basically PvE content is fantastic as long as it's just a big area with some chests. Nobody really cares about quests or progression or immersion, they just need some things to kill and some chests. No? Then why think that PvPers will enjoy that.

 

 

Well that was okay for EQ1. It's basically what that game was. Some random NPCs wandering around and stuff to loot.

 

That's a great game design if you're from 1999. That's when EQ1 launched.

 

 

So you're telling me that in an upcoming release, devs are going to bring PvP up to date with concepts from the year 1999. Well we are really moving forward here. At this rate, we'll be up to DAOC standards by 2014.

 

You're not making any sense. In a FP (which is the PvE content you oh-so-want the PvP to be like) you kill a bunch of enemies, then open a chest.

 

In the future of the Outlaw's Den, you are going to kill a bunch of player enemies, then open a chest.

 

What is missing from this comparison that you desire so much? Story? That is innate within the Empire/Republic concept. So if that's not it, what EXACTLY do you want cause all I hear you saying is "I want Change! Change this to be more like X! Change change change!" This isn't a Presidential campaign, vague rants about nothing will get you exactly what your rant provides: Nothing.

[Vis-Tecum]

I don't go there because Ilum is f'n stupid.

 

Just some tragically simple goals set up in a straight line with no progression or sense of accomplishment between them. I knock down your walkers, you knock down my walkers, I knock down your walkers, you knock down my walkers and nobody really cares.

 

 

You call that PvP content? I call it lame. If PvE consisted of one zone with like 5 objectives in it and you had to go back and forth and do them over and over again, they'd say "This game sucks" and quit within a week. Yet somehow PvPers are supposed to do that

FOR MONTHS.

 

not sure what you meant but the part you quoted was actually about outlaws den not illum

 

really im not sure what any of your post is about, pvp is more than just illum sounds to me like you want a very specific type of play and wont settle for anything less. sad because both areas can be really fun especially with the changes to illum. personally rewards and objectives ruin open pvp because it seems people just want to farm and exploit

 

and not sure why you were originally so suprised by outlaws den it has never been promoted as something diffrent than what it is

[Slamz]

In a FP (which is the PvE content you oh-so-want the PvP to be like) you kill a bunch of enemies, then open a chest.

 

In the PvE I'm familiar with, I play a Bounty Hunter who goes on the Great Hunt, which takes him to several planets in the galaxy, then proceeds onto the Blacklist, which encompasses a couple of other planets, etc. There is not only a single one-off goal ("kill dude, loot stuff") but also an overarching campaign.

 

So really that's what I want out of PvP: a campaign.

 

DAOC sort of had a campaign. It was a campaign to capture keeps and steal relics and then guard them. Pirates of the Burning Sea and Battleground Europe have real campaigns: you are trying to conquer the map (the Caribbean and Europe, respectively). (Planetside also has a campaign but it's somewhat smaller scale than DAOC, really. You can conquer a map but if you leave for lunch you'll come back to find it all reconquered, so the pacing is a bit off.)

 

 

 

So there's a 1700's era RPG, a WW2 era shooter and a sci-fi shooter that feature PvP campaigns.

 

That I know of, there is no fantasy RPG or sci-fi RPG that features PvP campaigns. SWTOR certainly has no PvP campaign in it.

 

And really, no "AAA" funded game has attempted a PvP campaign. It's all been very shallow. The PvE campaigns are EPIC but the PvP doesn't even get a tenth of that. I would speculate that PvP represents less than 1% of SWTOR's content.

 

 

If Bioware doubled their efforts on PvP, I suspect it would consist of 2% of the game's content. What I'm really looking for is a dramatic rethinking of what PvP needs to be in order to succeed.

 

 

1) It should be a campaign, not just quickie unrelated one-offs that don't lead anywhere.

2) It needs to be more than 1% of the game's content budget.

 

 

P.S.

I don't like Flashpoints or Operations for the same reason. Although you have to admit that any single Flashpoint contains roughly 10x the content of any single Warfront, so even that isn't a good comparison.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Slamz

[Lightmaguz]

because people are lame and wont do anything unless it gives them a quick reward noone goes there

 

+1

 

And that's why WAR failed(that and *********** wanted to pve.), people want shinies instead of pvp but they say they want pvp. For the record WAR had objectives in every single lake too and people just wanted to farm renown instead of actually fighting the enemy. PvPers got lazy and dumber since the UO days, and it sadly shows... It's not the thrill of besting the enemy anymore, it's having nicer gear. You can notice that everyone's pretty happy when a wz is shutting down and everyone will leave with some nice rewards for staying there 2 minutes nonetheless, quite pathetic.

[Noleader]

I just wish the PvP end game would continue were the PvE story arcs left off.. the peace treaty is in tatters and war has broken out again. Right now that war is one of three things for PvP:

 

Alderaan Turret Hacking

Void Star Data Stealing

Huttball (which I find fun but if we are at war why are we playing a sport game?)

 

All of which mean nothing in the game as a whole because it is instanced and no matter what we always seem to lose the Void Star Data or need to shoot down the same ship again.

 

What I want in PvP is something meaningful... something that brings the faction together with a shared goal. PvP ranks should be an after thought of PvP not what people are PvPing for.

[DarthVarrak]

In the PvE I'm familiar with, I play a Bounty Hunter who goes on the Great Hunt, which takes him to several planets in the galaxy, then proceeds onto the Blacklist, which encompasses a couple of other planets, etc. There is not only a single one-off goal ("kill dude, loot stuff") but also an overarching campaign.

 

So really that's what I want out of PvP: a campaign.

 

DAOC sort of had a campaign. It was a campaign to capture keeps and steal relics and then guard them. Pirates of the Burning Sea and Battleground Europe have real campaigns: you are trying to conquer the map (the Caribbean and Europe, respectively). (Planetside also has a campaign but it's somewhat smaller scale than DAOC, really. You can conquer a map but if you leave for lunch you'll come back to find it all reconquered, so the pacing is a bit off.)

 

 

 

So there's a 1700's era RPG, a WW2 era shooter and a sci-fi shooter that feature PvP campaigns.

 

That I know of, there is no fantasy RPG or sci-fi RPG that features PvP campaigns. SWTOR certainly has no PvP campaign in it.

 

And really, no "AAA" funded game has attempted a PvP campaign. It's all been very shallow. The PvE campaigns are EPIC but the PvP doesn't even get a tenth of that. I would speculate that PvP represents less than 1% of SWTOR's content.

 

 

If Bioware doubled their efforts on PvP, I suspect it would consist of 2% of the game's content. What I'm really looking for is a dramatic rethinking of what PvP needs to be in order to succeed.

 

 

1) It should be a campaign, not just quickie unrelated one-offs that don't lead anywhere.

2) It needs to be more than 1% of the game's content budget.

 

 

P.S.

I don't like Flashpoints or Operations for the same reason. Although you have to admit that any single Flashpoint contains roughly 10x the content of any single Warfront, so even that isn't a good comparison.

 

You might wanna put the part about the BH story in spoiler tags incase some one wanting to level a BH in the future comes in here (I'm a level 50 Merc so I know this already).

 

But as far as the campaign of quests though, you are correct. It is a long drawn out process called leveling. What most players consider when you say "PvE" is the end-game, which is Hardmode Flashpoints and Operations which is "kill X, loot 'boss' or chest".

 

And they have this for PvP too. It's called PvP servers. Throughout your leveling process on a PvP server you run across leveling members of the enemy faction and you take them down in the name of your faction so that you can continue on with your quest instead of them preventing you.

 

If you mean you want a leveling process with quests and planets but just for PvP, you are out of luck. That would basically require EA/Bioware to create SWTOR all over with voice actors, writers writing the quests with PvP objectives instead of PvE, rewards that gear the player towards PvP, and a ton of other stuff. Basically the same process, money, and time they took to make the normal leveling process, and then merge that second game with this one. The process, if they did it from the beginning, would nearly have doubled the time it already took them to make the game the way it is now, and doubled the cost, doubled the man-hours, doubled the risk of losing the voice actors, etc. It's unreasonable, nearly undoable to this extent.

 

They will add more for PvP. New PvP worlds (like Ilum, but different in the objective/combat aspects), new PvP zones, new PvP gear, new abilities for both PvE and PvP, talent tree changes, nerfs, buffs, etc. This allows them to keep the leveling process as is standard but still make the PvP crowd want to PvP.

 

You are the first poster I have ever seen ask for this unreasonable undertaking, and I don't see it ever being a reality. The fanbase would move on to other things by the time the Beta came out. Some of the fanbase nearly did before the beta for this game was out. It's just not doable.

[aleiro]

Chests.

 

Really.

 

Wow.

 

That's your idea of PvP content is it. Boxes. On the ground. I think that might actually be a step backwards from Quake. So basically PvE content is fantastic as long as it's just a big area with some chests. Nobody really cares about quests or progression or immersion, they just need some things to kill and some chests. No? Then why think that PvPers will enjoy that.

 

 

Well that was okay for EQ1. It's basically what that game was. Some random NPCs wandering around and stuff to loot.

 

That's a great game design if you're from 1999. That's when EQ1 launched.

 

 

So you're telling me that in an upcoming release, devs are going to bring PvP up to date with concepts from the year 1999. Well we are really moving forward here. At this rate, we'll be up to DAOC standards by 2014.

 

How about some constructive feedback? IT's really easy to say "This sucks, you and your game suck!" How about instead you try to give them ideas on how to improve it, they don't have to be great ideas just give them something to work from, it will be much better than "this sucks"

[Airoper]

agreed there need to be a full scale zone war npc walkers you name it put it in like a epic battle from the movies

[EternalFinality]

World PvP with no objectives can work - but the zone must not APPEAR to be a PvP zone, and must have several characeristics.

 

1. It must have both factions in the area to do quests.

 

2. It must have them cross paths often.

 

3. It must have low leveled players as well as high level players passing through often.

 

4. It must be easy for players in other zones to get to.

 

Bam - you just got Stranglethorn Vale from WoW, the best world PvP zone I have ever played in.

 

TOR fails utterly - almost every planet that has both Empire and Republic on it have them in completely separate zones or sides of a zone doing their own thing, rarely meeting. This is fail.

 

Without the ability to screw with others, and potentially have others nearby to get your back if a fight breaks out, there is no point in finding people to pvp with. Without a mix of levels, you'll never have a need to get help from higher powered players in the area, and/or have numerous players band together to stop a larger threat. There is no reason to help each other since there will never be a threat. They can't get to your quest givers. If they are messing with you, then they're deliberately going out of their way and wasting time to do it. Even for the average griefer - this isn't worth it.

 

Worse, TOR's flimsy death penalties ensure that even if you were to miraculously disrupt the opposing faction by killing them, they can just revive exactly in the same place after you leave. Utter fail. Bioware failed with open world PvP completely.

Edited January 23, 2012 by EternalFinality

[anstalt]

Granted, the tat zone kinda of sucks for pvp, but I honestly can't see a decent solution given the current technology.

 

If you put meaningful objectives in a pvp lake (like keep / bases etc) then the fighting will centre around those objectives. First, this creates a lag issue and reduces the quality of your gaming experience. Second, it means there is little point in pvping elsewhere on the map so most of the map will go unused. Third, it gives the team with the largest numbers a big advantage.

 

In short, it is extremely hard to design meaningful pvp objectives that will improve pvp rather than reduce it.

 

The current form of ilum is actually preferable for me. Apart from patch day 1.1, Ilum has been great on my server. Loads of roaming pvp, some really great fights to be had all over the map. Empire usually have an ops group up somewhere but the map is big enough that you can avoid them and search out smaller fights, or put together your own ops group and try to beat them.

 

The main thing I think they should do is give you more incentive to stay once you've done your daily. The valor is nice but you aren't actually progressing towards better gear. I think if players dropped mercenary commendations (5 per kill?) for everyone who took part in the kill then you'd see a lot of people sticking around longer. This would get people out of the warzones and in to open world pvp

[DarthVarrak]

agreed there need to be a full scale zone war npc walkers you name it put it in like a epic battle from the movies

 

I would agree with a battle like this in a WZ. Kind of like the vanilla AV. Greatest PvP content to ever exist in my opinion was vanilla AV.

[DarthVarrak]

 

3. It must have low leveled players as well as high level players passing through often.

 

 

I started to disagree with everything in your post except #1-2 right here. PvP is not about griefing and harassing other players. PvP is about skilled, tactical combat for your team, your guild, your faction, and your name.

 

Griefing and Harassing players may be fun for bads or children, but it leads to: Players quitting! Why would anyone in their right minds pay for a game in which they cannot progress at all? It is ridiculous, and it is the Griefer mentality that helped lead to all the trolls, idiots, racists, sexists, and bullies in WoW. Anyone who wants this system back either has serious mental issues, or needs to go back to WoW.