What's the deal with level 50 Vanguard PVP?

[Gretha]

Wrong tanks are invaluable when someone plays it with a different mindset than of going rambo "d3RP I wanna top DerPS!"

 

 

 

 

It's very unfortunate that shielding isn't as effective as it should seem but you can still make an extremely effective tanky spec. A bulk of your vitality as a tank stems from being in the stance. With a hybrid Shield/Assault spec, you become an impact bolt machine compared to previously going deep shield and all the same survivability.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801GRG0bMdoZ0MZbIbbdh.1

 

what happens to be not a "going full tank spec" he was talking about and more the "pyro-light +Jet Charge"

[origional]

A lot depends on how you want to play.

I generally play to the objectives of the game first, the defence of other players second and killing the enemy third. I play at range as much as possible because it allows me to be more aware of whats going on around me and only voluntarily get in to range in certain circumstances.

 

Ive tried shield spec, tactics spec and assault spec. Assault I felt was a waste of time and tactics to much about melee range. Neither suited my style of play. However, full shield spec isnt necessary in pvp, mainly because so many attacks bypass your shields, so I only have enough points to get the storm ability which I find useful. I have enough point in tactics to get the gut ability and push its damage up when it is used.

 

I dont do a lot of damage in pvp, sometimes I dont even get the 75k medal, but thats only accasionally. But I generaly have high scores in protecting people (assuming those you are protecting dont run around like headless chickens, you just cant keep up) and high scores in objectives.

 

I get jumped a lot by the enemy. Now either this is because they know im super squishy and an easy kill, or its because i'm an annoying pain in preventing them from getting their objectives and they want me out of the way. I like to think its the later.

 

If I get healed im very very hard to kill. If I dont, then when I do get jumped I go down fast, even with 50% damage reduction from my armour. I only have 1 piece of champion armour so I dont have a high expertise rating.

 

In open pvp I get destroyed, but im nearly always up against guys in full champion or high battlemaster gear. The biggest problem is being stun locked and this will be the reason I end up quitting the game because whats the point of playing, when you cant.Its also frustrating to see someone jsut stand there and easily out heal any damage you do. And no, you cant interupt them effectively - why? because once you've used your 1 interupt they just cast a different heal and thats all they need because healing is so over powered in pvp because it needs to meet he needs of a heavy hitting pve environment.

 

The warzones are all fun. Though huttball is a problem for everyone know the imps have learnt that sith juggernaughts are an I win button in huttball. Voidstar is where a vanguard should shine as its a very tactical game. Alderaan is a bit more of a zerg.

Edited January 24, 2012 by origional

[ururururu]

its up to you but guard is a really beastly ability. why play a tank class if you didn't intend to use its best ability?

 

guard costs you some burst (plasma cell + assault plastique), but you can still get 18 in assault for high impact bolt fun. then you get charge too, woo hoo! parakeet = win.

[Waagabond]

I realy dont understand why no one is talking about tank spec, surely there is some value in going full tank to keep your own teams healers alive ?

 

Why go tank spec when you can just taunt the attacker on the healer, or if more, use AOE taunt.

Those 6 seconds are usually all thats needed to either kill the dps on the healer or atleast get them off the healer.

 

You want defensive medals in PVP, use Taunt.

 

I would have guard if I ran shield spec, had awsome gear and a personal healer.

Then I would guard that healer.

 

Look at Skrigg for example.

He does great, but he have a personal pocket healer.

 

For those of us that solo roam alot, Assault spec is the absolute best there is, no comparison.

If you run premades and have 1 or 2 strong healers. I would say that shield/tactics or shield/assault is the way to go. Personally I say shield/tactics as I believe shield/assault are wasting more then 5 talent points as fillers, for nothing, to get incend round and another talent, where in tactics tree every single talent is great, in the tier 1-3 area.

Beside as shield stockstrike is your bread and butter damage ability and as such I think tactics just have better synergy then assault to compliment a stockstrike focused attack rotation.

 

Vanguards are strong. We do have burst damage but need to time it.

Sticky with HIB or Assault plastique with HIB makes for immense burst. Learn to use them so they connect at same time. Its dead simple as its about 1.5 gcd after throwing a sticky or plastique until it explodes.

If you dont care about plasma, just start with a sticky or plastique, follow up with incend round and then fire off your HIB. No burst? So wrong.......:-)

[origional]

I realy dont understand why no one is talking about tank spec, surely there is some value in going full tank to keep your own teams healers alive ?

 

I've tried full tank spec and at the top end of the tree you are just wasting points in pvp. Counter Attack isnt worth 5 points because of the shield dont pop for a lot of pvp damage, and energy blast is a farce of a top end ability. Plus you have to use an addition 4 points in the tree just to get to Counter Attack so for me its really a 9 point ability.

 

Now I run with a 21/18/2 spec with the shield tree up to storm ability but no more.

[Kryptorchid]

I've tried full tank spec and at the top end of the tree you are just wasting points in pvp. Counter Attack isnt worth 5 points because of the shield dont pop for a lot of pvp damage, and energy blast is a farce of a top end ability. Plus you have to use an addition 4 points in the tree just to get to Counter Attack so for me its really a 9 point ability.

 

Now I run with a 21/18/2 spec with the shield tree up to storm ability but no more.

 

I used to run a similar spec, but I was 23/16/2 which lowered Gut's DoT by ~8.5% but gives 30% bonus crit dmg on Stockstrike.

 

Since I have moved to Assault Spec, but it is a very fun spec and can do very well.

[Rogmar]

Wrong tanks are invaluable when someone plays it with a different mindset than of going rambo "d3RP I wanna top DerPS!"

 

Wow you're dumb. Tank doesn't imply running full tank spec, which was what the post I was quoting was talking about. Funny because the second part of your post basically agrees with what I just said.

 

I like how you're quick to rant about the "derp/rambo" mentality though, I'm guessing 100k damage is an accomplishment for you.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Rogmar

[Turn-XGundam]

problem is the aoe we have huge delay, death from above/unload fire right away. stupid mortar volley/full auto have huge delays. i want the delays removed.

also you have ungrateful healers, who you guard and tell them. yet they never heal you.

 

i don't how hard it is to realize that 50% of your damage is going to a vanguard near you, who's taking a lot of fire. while you do something completely irrelevant. then once that vanguard dies you notice your taking damage fast and die in no time.

 

sages/socrs out there heal me and i'll guard/taunt for you.

[Turn-XGundam]

its up to you but guard is a really beastly ability. why play a tank class if you didn't intend to use its best ability?

 

guard costs you some burst (plasma cell + assault plastique), but you can still get 18 in assault for high impact bolt fun. then you get charge too, woo hoo! parakeet = win.

 

post your spec tree from torhead i might use it.

sounds interesting. assault is good but runs through ammo more then tactics.

[Kahuna]

From a previous post:

 

Aloha,

 

Shield spec is viable in pvp, anyone that says different hasn't tried it or is playing it wrong. I can easily get 100k damage and over 50k protection when trying and average 9+ medals a round. Does that mean you should go with a Shield spec vs a dps spec, that's up to you as a lot comes down to individual playstyle. But Shield is definitely not pointless.

[Rogmar]

From a previous post:

 

Can do 300k+ Damage and 100k Protection with 12+ medals without Shield Spec, not seeing your point.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Rogmar

[Kahuna]

Can do 300k+ Damage and 100k Protection with 12+ medals without Shield Spec, not seeing your point.

 

Not sure if you intended it as such, but your reply comes across as one of those derps in a WZ that thinks topping damage every match to the exclusion of tactics and actually winning is worth bragging about.

 

Point was, that Shield isn't useless. When I'm tanking 5+ people at a turret and you're dead, it's easier to see my point. And you'll notice I said average medals and my numbers have a plus sign next to them. I've maxed out around 200k+ dps...as a tank. So if you're a dps spec I would expect to faceroll 300k. Obviously your dps will be better, but I don't mind the trade off myself and neither do the people I'm with in the WZ, especially Huttball.

 

I'm full Battlemaster geared (before Ilum) and did it all Shield Spec.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Kahuna

[CrackboneFTW]

Not sure if you intended it as such, but your reply comes across as one of those derps in a WZ that thinks topping damage every match to the exclusion of tactics and actually winning is worth bragging about.

 

Point was, that Shield isn't useless. When I'm tanking 5+ people at a turret and you're dead, it's easier to see my point. And you'll notice I said average medals and my numbers have a plus sign next to them. I've maxed out around 200k+ dps...as a tank. So if you're a dps spec I would expect to faceroll 300k. Obviously your dps will be better, but I don't mind the trade off myself and neither do the people I'm with in the WZ, especially Huttball.

 

I'm full Battlemaster geared (before Ilum) and did it all Shield Spec.

 

He very well might be a DERP, but I don't necessarily think so.

 

I too am a pre Ilum BM, and have played all of the specs quite a bit, and find that a 31pt assault spec, in DPS gear, is too good not to have at least someone play.

 

To reword his point, DPS Vanguards lack guard, and that's really about it. (Storm also to be technical) However, you still gain many of the great tanking tools that Shield Specs have. Taunt, AOE Taunt, Interrupts, and Harpoon.

 

You gain DPS that can burst down just about anyone. DPS + Tank Utility = Best of Both Worlds, imo.

 

As I've mentioned in previous posts, I started a Vanguard to PvP tank. I realized the DPS was so good end game, that DPS is now my slot in Premades, etc.

 

To answer the OP: If you understand the class, and the rotations, it's one of the better DPS classes available. I have no regrets rolling this as my main.

[Kahuna]

He very well might be a DERP, but I don't necessarily think so.

 

You gain DPS that can burst down just about anyone. DPS + Tank Utility = Best of Both Worlds, imo.

 

To answer the OP: If you understand the class, and the rotations, it's one of the better DPS classes available. I have no regrets rolling this as my main.

 

I agree, though I'd use a hybrid (24/12/5 for instance) if I wanted to gain the best of both worlds, but that comes down to play style. We just approach the same issue from opposite ends. At the end of the day, knowing what you are giving up with survivability versus dps is a choice you can make without gimping yourself. Vanguard doesn't have to roll as dps to be viable, period.

[Waagabond]

Thanks for the great input guys. At the moment I'm running my level 37 vanguard on 100% SS right now, he sort of sucks in PVP, i can't get any where near the DPS of my level 25 commando, but I'm hoping to switch him to tactics/assault after 50 and see how he does damage wise.

 

Honestly, if its PVP you do.

 

At very early level, go shield to survive.

At your level, you should go Assault to have more fun, enjoy the games, do a ton of damage and contribute that way.

And then, once you are around 47+ you go back to a shield spec since you at this time can pick up incend round from assault from a 23/15+ spec. I dont recomend less then 48 though since its the talent above incend that makes this spec so good together with shield.

 

For now, full assault, every single point in there. Get Assault plastique and just have a ton of fun as a ranged vanguard.

 

Shield spec at lower level seriously is not that great, its the combination of shield and some other trees that really rocks the socks.

[Waagabond]

He very well might be a DERP, but I don't necessarily think so.

 

I too am a pre Ilum BM, and have played all of the specs quite a bit, and find that a 31pt assault spec, in DPS gear, is too good not to have at least someone play.

 

To reword his point, DPS Vanguards lack guard, and that's really about it. (Storm also to be technical) However, you still gain many of the great tanking tools that Shield Specs have. Taunt, AOE Taunt, Interrupts, and Harpoon.

 

You gain DPS that can burst down just about anyone. DPS + Tank Utility = Best of Both Worlds, imo.

 

As I've mentioned in previous posts, I started a Vanguard to PvP tank. I realized the DPS was so good end game, that DPS is now my slot in Premades, etc.

 

To answer the OP: If you understand the class, and the rotations, it's one of the better DPS classes available. I have no regrets rolling this as my main.

 

This is a very true post.

 

As it stands now. Vanguards is definately one of the best overall damage classes.

Mainly since 95% of our abilities are instant, we can be on the move all the time, and there is very little downtime. Running plasma cell and rain of fire means our hammer shots alone hits for very very hard.

 

Assault is just so much fun also to play.

But as I mentioned earlier, I think shield/assault or Shield/Tactics is a really nice spec to play as well, and the damage is not that much lower since you just focus more on melee.

23/18 is a top notch pvp spec for a shield tank.

[ururururu]

my opinion - parakeet or assault are the best pvp specs, by far. all the others feel weaker, although I have a soft spot for tactics -- movement & interrupt are fun! -- the burst just isn't there.

 

it's hard to argue against parakeet (guard) in premades. can run around with just a healer and totally change the match with just the two of you.

[CrackboneFTW]

my opinion - parakeet or assault are the best pvp specs, by far. all the others feel weaker, although I have a soft spot for tactics -- movement & interrupt are fun! -- the burst just isn't there.

 

it's hard to argue against parakeet (guard) in premades. can run around with just a healer and totally change the match with just the two of you.

 

I'm with you on this one.

 

The one disappointment I have with Vanguard DPS is specifically the Tactics tree. I just feel that on its own, it's not effective enough in either DPS or survivability to make it worth while.

 

It's a 10m - melee spec, and to run it effectively, High Energy Cell should be rolling.

 

I also feel that the primary reason for this is threefold:

 

1. Fire Pulse doesn't hit hard enough

 

2. Stockstrike procs from Fire Pulse should not just make it free, but eliminate the cooldown. That alone would increase damage to an acceptable level and would likely make the damage comparable to Assault.

 

3. Gut doesn't hit hard enough. It's a primary additional skill from the tree that is lackluster in practice, even with a high crit rate/BM gear.

 

It has some great tools(in combat movement speed increase, Hold the Line, reduced interrupt cooldown time, Harpoon cooldown reduction, etc), but by itself it's hard to justify a 31 pt spec into Tactics.

 

Let's be frank, if Assault gets numerous HIBs for free, Tactics should get the same number of cooldown resets/free stockstrikes. You have to be inside 4m to do it, and you are squishy @ that range in DPS gear. I think the risk/reward isn't worth it @ present. Hopefully they'll revisit that tree in the near future.

[Rogmar]

Not sure if you intended it as such, but your reply comes across as one of those derps in a WZ that thinks topping damage every match to the exclusion of tactics and actually winning is worth bragging about.

 

Point was, that Shield isn't useless. When I'm tanking 5+ people at a turret and you're dead, it's easier to see my point. And you'll notice I said average medals and my numbers have a plus sign next to them. I've maxed out around 200k+ dps...as a tank. So if you're a dps spec I would expect to faceroll 300k. Obviously your dps will be better, but I don't mind the trade off myself and neither do the people I'm with in the WZ, especially Huttball.

 

I'm full Battlemaster geared (before Ilum) and did it all Shield Spec.

 

Did you misread the part where I said my Protection score is higher than yours without going Shield Spec? Who's the real "derp"? You posted your stats to somehow validate your terrible thought process in PvP, even though mine are better in every category without Shield Spec.

 

I like how you assume I would die in a situation where shield spec would let you live (10% shield chance must grant you invulnerability). You clearly don't even understand what a "tank" is in PvP.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Rogmar

[Cordarn]

Hey folks,

 

I've read multiple posts here stating that Vanguard is great in level 50 PVP, the DPS is good, good survivability, etc.

 

Then I've read in other posts that Vanguard is useless after level 50 in PVP, as they're shield gear hardly absorbs any damage in PVP and their DPS output can't match that of the other classes. Even with all the fancy PVP gear, they still suck.

 

Can we clarify this once and for all? What's the deal with level 50 Vanguards in PVP?

 

Thanks guys!

 

I was in alderaan and im about 4 levels from 50. I got one death and 10 kills. Depends what you click when you click and the mistakes you make. Same for the opponent.

[ururururu]

I was in alderaan and im about 4 levels from 50. I got one death and 10 kills. Depends what you click when you click and the mistakes you make. Same for the opponent.

 

Translation:

- if you suck, you're gonna suck.

- if you are good, you'll do good on a vanguard

 

/thread

[Badavan]

I've really enjoyed the work done by other Vanguards (love the movies Oozo!), and have been pvping quite a bit, both leveling and at 50. I currently have ~358 Expertise with a Champion MH, 3 pieces of PvP set gear, 1 PvP relic, 1 PvP implant, and PvP ear. Everything else is Tionese or better level of gear.

 

For 50 pvp I've done full Assault, 0/23/18, and full Tactics. Out of all of these, full Tactics has by far been the most fun.

 

I don't feel burdened by ammo as I was in the hybrid or full Assault build, and still feel that I have the same burst as I did before, just less RNG associated with it. Fire Pulse feels like a strong hard hitting ability that the tree is designed around which feels to be a missing feature in the Assault tree. There is Assault Plastique, which is fantastic, but ultimately lacks any other context in the tree aside from two skills (Assault Trooper and maybe Burnout as I'm unsure if AP is tech or not). Fire Pulse has at least 4 skills contributing to it to help the tree feel more whole, with skills in other trees (total of +14% elemental damage with HEC on). The Tactics tree also has superb control that is only one-upped by the Hybrid build.

 

Now, what I miss from Assault and the Hybrid build is very good as well. The active cooldown reductions on both Reactive Shield and Adrenaline Rush are huge. Degauss is also freaking amazing (though Hold the Line helps with that as well). Having a long range dot to apply for HIB and AP having a 30m range are also very nice, as these help the tree win in longer range fights. I also really miss the on-demand snare from Plasma Cell, it has saved me many times.

 

Sorry for the long-winded post, been enjoying this thread for quite a bit and wanted to chime in with my opinion.

[_Nobby_]

A lot has been written here so i'll leave that alone. Some quantitative data on vanguard PvP though I'll put up.

 

The scenario was a healer friend and I queueing together. I guard him and just smash people trying to take him down in a voidstar game.

 

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj65/salanex/vanguarddmg.png

 

31/8/2 spec. I'd consider dropping 5 points off the top of defense for PvP but I need it for PvE. Vanguard is definitely not useless in endgame PvP.

[Kahuna]

Did you misread the part where I said my Protection score is higher than yours without going Shield Spec? Who's the real "derp"? You posted your stats to somehow validate your terrible thought process in PvP, even though mine are better in every category without Shield Spec.

 

I like how you assume I would die in a situation where shield spec would let you live (10% shield chance must grant you invulnerability). You clearly don't even understand what a "tank" is in PvP.

 

Did you misread how I put a +. Again? For the second time? Yes, you're a derp. I posted numbers so the OP would have a reasonable idea what his class could expect whatever route he went. It wasn't a pissing contest so get over yourself you clearly don't understand what's going on here.

 

And if you think you'd survive longer than I would as pure dps versus pure tank...you clearly don't understand your class. They are called tradeoffs for a reason. Again, derp. Case closed!

Edited January 27, 2012 by Kahuna

[Rogmar]

Not sure if you intended it as such, but your reply comes across as one of those derps in a WZ that thinks topping damage every match to the exclusion of tactics and actually winning is worth bragging about..

Oh, it's just a bad troll making baseless assumptions. Clearly that's what posting a higher average protection score is the result of.

 

Did you misread how I put a +. Again? For the second time? Yes, you're a derp. I posted numbers so the OP would have a reasonable idea what his class could expect whatever route he went. It wasn't a pissing contest so get over yourself you clearly don't understand what's going on here.

What's the point of posting stats and their correlation to your spec if they don't prove anything? But yeah, I'm the one who doesn't understand.

 

And if you think you'd survive longer than I would as pure dps versus pure tank...you clearly don't understand your class. They are called tradeoffs for a reason. Again, derp. Case closed!

 

Who is pure DPS? Man, you are full of assumptions.