The game should have shipped with dual spec

[Daedricshots]

Inquisitor Healer, Khem Val, keep him geared.

 

Trooper Healer, Aric, keep him geared.

 

I dont know the BH companions, haven't done that sotry yet.

 

Good to go. Healers are kinda easy to level in this game. You hardly ever die.

 

Ill give it a shot. I just remember leveling a disc priest in wow and wanting to cut my wrists around level 20

[Cornmonger]

dude i just want my rug back

 

the RUG is not the ISSUE here, dude!

[Chromiie]

Wrong. This isn't a WoW clone. If you want WoW, go back and play it, otherwise deal with it.

 

LOLOL. Are you serious?

 

http://i.imgur.com/UmcMV.jpg

[Daedricshots]

the RUG is not the ISSUE here, dude!

 

it CONNECTED the room , man

[Chromiie]

it CONNECTED the room , man

 

Maleena pissed on your rug man!

[chton]

Considering that reeks of sarcasm. Then why even have a choice on your AC? Why have light side/dark side choice? Let's play a game where decisions mean nothing.

 

That's what people want, everything with no consequences. Why should I not get everything!!!! Choices are difficult, I don't want to decide! I will go where I don't have to decide!! Millions of simpletons can't be wrong!!!

[Cordelia]

I kind of hope we don't get it but only because i've levelled 2 Jedi sages lol. One for pure healing the other for DPS.

 

I think it's pretty inevitable it will come though.

[rhillius]

I would like duel spec, I never played WoW but I was spoilt with Rift with 5 specs.

 

I to played Rift and really liked the way you could switch specs on the fly but this isn't Rift. That worked because the class system was designed to support it from very early on. SWTOR's wasn't and even something as simple as field switchable dual specs would cause all sorts of problems for this game. Some classes like snipers would become useless in PVE since they can only fill one role, some PVE content would be trivial because groups could stack roles per encounter.

 

To many people are looking at the connivence of dual specs for THEM without really considering the ramifications of adding them to the rest of the game.

[Cornmonger]

Maleena pissed on your rug man!

 

This is a league forum, that was over the line

[CanWolfShadow]

Ill give it a shot. I just remember leveling a disc priest in wow and wanting to cut my wrists around level 20

 

Just make sure you are using the Tanking companion for you class, and manage his opening attacks, and you should be more than good to go. Healers also usually have OK DPS if they have decent weapons.

[Lethality]

As someone that enjoys pvp healing im not going to try and level in a healing tree. There really is no valid reason why dual spec isnt in the game right now. Give me one reason why this game shouldnt have shipped with dual spec available?

 

Maybe you should try it.

 

You have a powerful dps auto-attack companion you know.

 

This isn't other games you think you might know about.

[Matte_Black]

It would not have shipped to my house with dual speccing.

[ryathal]

If you're not going to try, how can you even know if it will be fun or not?

 

Oh, and the one reason: Companions.

 

companions dont make leveling a healer any better, dps still is faster

[Matte_Black]

The way I see it, if you can't flip between builds or it is harder to do, it validates hybrid builds over optimized ones. It's the optimized builds that most often stretches the ruleset and creates scaling problems and imbalance. Also, more valid builds means more variety than a few cookie cutter ones we toggle between that only change when there is a nerf.

 

I don't agree with the mindset that we are entitled to be optimized for every aspect of the game. If you want to be the best in a part of the game, work for it and sacrifice to specialize. Otherwise find a balance point for what you want to do with character and keep specific gear sets around and make other characters for other roles.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Matte_Black

[invispoet]

Dual spec created more problems for wow than anything in my opinion. Sure there are more healers and tanks, but the quality of healers and tanks has taken serious hit. You now have dps specing in tank specs or healing to get more runs faster and aren't really that good at it.

 

Dual spec doesnt create any problems that arent already there. It doesnt give us any options that arent already there. All it does is make those options take less time. You know, kinda like how you'd drive to work instead of walking, to save time. You dont blame the inventor of the automobile because there happen to be idiots that drive cars...you blame the idiots.

 

Dual spec makes EVERY aspect of the game more enjoyable. Raiding guilds can more reliably fill their rosters when something in real life happens to keep one of their raiders offline. Questers can find groups for those pesky heroic 4's more easily. Peole that want to devote an entire spec to pvp (even though that's not intended in this game, old habits die hard) can do so without hurting anyone else. People that want to experience multiple aspects of their character without spending massive amounts of time (by levelling another character of the SAME class, and having to re-do the entire story) or money (by constantly shifting specs every day, or multiple times a day) can. People that want to kill world bosses can build groups without having to travel all the way across the planet (to the shuttle), then to the orbital station, then to their ship, then to the fleet, then through ALL this again to get back, can.

 

Dual spec CREATES no problem that isnt already in the game. If you're worried about people treating you like crap because they dont like your spec...that's a player being a moron/jerk...it's going to happen with or without dual spec.

 

If you're worried about single role characters being irrelevant, that can already be the case if people REALLY wanted it to...sages, shadows, troopers, vanguards, and guardians (and their empire counterparts) can ALREADY respec if they (or their raid leader) want to. Dual spec doesnt cause this problem (i'd actually debate that this is not a problem with the way this game is designed, but that's a whole different argument).

[invispoet]

The way I see it, if you can't flip between builds or it is harder to do, it validates hybrid builds over optimized ones. It's the optimized builds that most often stretches the ruleset and creates scaling problems and imbalance. Also, more valid builds means more variety than a few cookie cutter ones we toggle between that only change when there is a nerf.

 

I don't agree with the mindset that we are entitled to be optimized for every aspect of the game. If you want to be the best in a part of the game, work for it and sacrifice to specialize. Otherwise find a balance point for what you want to do with character and keep specific gear sets around and make other characters for other roles.

 

You missed the part where Bioware explicitly stated they dont want hybrid builds to be viable. The talent trees (and the game itself) is designed with the assumption that you're spending at least 31 points in any one tree.

 

Dual spec does NOT allow us to optimize for every aspect of the game. It lets you easily switch between two FREQUENTLY USED talent specs. It doesnt all of a sudden make you an outstanding tank and an outstanding damage dealer at the same time. You still have to choose which specs to run around with, AND which spec to actually use.

 

Hard mode and nightmare modes are built around the assumption that everyone is optimizing their characters. PvP, being competitive, inadvertantly leads you to optimize your character, so that you can win as often as possible. This is the design of the game, and it is INTENDED. If you dont like optimization, you are playing the wrong kind of game.

 

*edit* or you specifically choose to ignore a core concept of the game (most likely because you're still doing solo content)

 

Talent spec optimization is caused by people wanting to get the best performance out of their character, which will ALWAYS happen when there is content that is difficult or competitive. Dual spec just makes it easier to optimize (which people are going to do whether you want them to or not).

Edited January 22, 2012 by invispoet

[Matte_Black]

You missed the part where Bioware explicitly stated they dont want hybrid builds to be viable. The talent trees (and the game itself) is designed with the assumption that you're spending at least 31 points in any one tree.

 

Dual spec does NOT allow us to optimize for every aspect of the game. It lets you easily switch between two FREQUENTLY USED talent specs. It doesnt all of a sudden make you an outstanding tank and an outstanding damage dealer at the same time. You still have to choose which specs to run around with, AND which spec to actually use.

 

Hard mode and nightmare modes are built around the assumption that everyone is optimizing their characters. PvP, being competitive, inadvertantly leads you to optimize your character, so that you can win as often as possible. This is the design of the game, and it is INTENDED. If you dont like optimization, you are playing the wrong kind of game.

 

*edit* or you specifically choose to ignore a core concept of the game (most likely because you're still doing solo content)

 

Talent spec optimization is caused by people wanting to get the best performance out of their character, which will ALWAYS happen when there is content that is difficult or competitive. Dual spec just makes it easier to optimize (which people are going to do whether you want them to or not).

 

I missed the explicit statement because they never made it. Produce the quote.

 

BioWare's philosophy is about player characters, not combat avatars, making meaningful choices. They talk about those meaningful choices over and over. They provide all the tools to develop a character with story, a personality and even strengths and weaknesses. They dragged their feet on even allowing respeccing but, put it in limited to allow players to fix mistakes. While other games let you shuffle your avi for different things, it seems apparent that this game supports playing a series of consistent characters as opposed to one that morphs back and forth.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Matte_Black

[invispoet]

I missed the explicit statement because they never made it. Produce the quote.

 

BioWare's philosophy is about player characters, not combat avatars, making meaningful choices. They talk about those meaningful choices over and over. They provide all the tools to develop a character with story, a personality and even strengths and weaknesses. They dragged their feet on even allowing respeccing but, put it in limited to allow players to fix mistakes. While other games let you shuffle your avi for different things, it seems apparent that this game supports playing a series of consistent characters as opposed to one that morphs back and forth.

 

The actual quote was taken from a thread that is no longer accessible, but here is a link from a site that reposted it

 

http://www.guildportal.com/Guild.aspx?GuildID=316903&TabID=2656885&ForumID=1489429&TopicID=9876293

 

The relevant quote follows:

 

"Hybrids

 

Ultimately we don't do hybrid roles. You can do them (by mixing different skill trees), but by design, all our classes are meant to be fully capable in the roles they fill. The 'hybrid' tax would be the fact that you won't be able to get the top tier talents in one skill tree if you spread yourself too thin into others.

 

At high level, all roles have the same capabilities, in our game all healers are 'main healers' provided they are specced accordingly, etc."

 

It's not specifically stated that they dont design around everyone having their 31 point talent, but 'fully capable in the roles they fill" STRONGLY implies that you pick a role (ie, talent tree) and go all the way up it.

 

"Hybrid" specs only work in low level pvp, when you use certain tier 1 & 2 talents to compensate for the core class abilities you havent learned yet.

[Darth-Prophet]

Keep Dual Specs out of the game. While I play a Sith Assassin. It would be cool to swap between tank and Dps. But REALLY ITS NOT NEEDED!

 

We already have people needing on items for companions. Adding in the Dual specs would cause more issues with need rolling on gear. Its really simple if you want to be another Spec pay the cost.. Simple as that.

[invispoet]

Keep Dual Specs out of the game. While I play a Sith Assassin. It would be cool to swap between tank and Dps. But REALLY ITS NOT NEEDED!

 

We already have people needing on items for companions. Adding in the Dual specs would cause more issues with need rolling on gear. Its really simple if you want to be another Spec pay the cost.. Simple as that.

 

If you have people needing on items for companions, without talking to the group about it first, the problem is the players, not the system.

 

They could just as easily be hitting need on items for their off spec NOW. Adding in dual spec wont change this in the least.

 

On top of that, respeccing wouldnt be so big of a deal if the 'price decay' they supposedly put in was working as intended. I respec'd on my bounty hunter once at level 25ish to heal a flashpoint, respec'd back to dps after....leveled to 50, and 2 weeks later, with NO respects in between, my respec cost is 98k...when my last respec was 2 weeks and 30+ levels ago.

 

I will concede the point that dual spec is not NEEDED in the game, but there's no reason not to add it, as it makes EVERY aspect of the game (especially the group aspects) more enjoyable.

 

You dont need to drive to school/work/everywhere either (you could walk), but you do, because it makes life easier, and saves EVERYONE time.

Edited January 22, 2012 by invispoet

[Toketopia]

I dont like the idea of duel specialization. I feel that there is more "character" to a toon when it cant be switched around so easily. Make wise chooses and role alts. Play and enjoy each of them, appreciate each one for its uniqueness. In my opinion warcraft had many "adjustments" to its original design that did not help the appeal of the game. Often they implemented changes because the community cried and in the end it made the game watered down and boring. I prefer as much uniqueness to my character as possible and will give up some nice utility such as duel spec's to have it. Why have more then one class in the game? Anyone that cant see my point should think about this. If adding duel spec does not water down the toons then consider the extreme. One class that can heal, dps and tank. Thats all the game realy needs right? It's the specialization of a class that makes it fun. Its also why we all try to get better and cooler gear. To be more powerfull and not look like every other player out there. No gear graphic customization also, imo.

[Chromiie]

I dont like the idea of duel specialization.

 

Neither do I but I'm all for Dual Specs.

[Matte_Black]

Yet this part, "they dont want hybrid builds to be viable", remains your concept, not theirs. They provide a reward for optimization in one role through their "hybrid tax" on other less focused builds. That is your reward for sacrificing in other areas to be a specialist. None of that is about encouraging people to be specialists in all areas with one character.

 

It may not be how other games have done it but, I think their answer to players wanting to be "the Best" in multiple arenas would be, "DO the work and make that stable of specialized characters". Fast levelling, different levelling stories, and upcoming legacy abilities all point to their support of this.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Matte_Black

[Revenaught]

As someone that enjoys pvp healing im not going to try and level in a healing tree. There really is no valid reason why dual spec isnt in the game right now. Give me one reason why this game shouldnt have shipped with dual spec available?

 

OP I give you the only reason that really matters. The designers of the game didn't want it that way so they didn't include a method for you to bounce back and forth at will.

 

Be glad they relented as much as they did. In the intial planning phases of this game they didn't want people able to switch at all. They initially planned on every choice being permanent.

[invispoet]

I dont like the idea of duel specialization. I feel that there is more "character" to a toon when it cant be switched around so easily. Make wise chooses and role alts. Play and enjoy each of them, appreciate each one for its uniqueness. In my opinion warcraft had many "adjustments" to its original design that did not help the appeal of the game. Often they implemented changes because the community cried and in the end it made the game watered down and boring. I prefer as much uniqueness to my character as possible and will give up some nice utility such as duel spec's to have it. Why have more then one class in the game? Anyone that cant see my point should think about this. If adding duel spec does not water down the toons then consider the extreme. One class that can heal, dps and tank. Thats all the game realy needs right? It's the specialization of a class that makes it fun. Its also why we all try to get better and cooler gear. To be more powerfull and not look like every other player out there. No gear graphic customization also, imo.

 

A) there is no class in this game that can choose between tanking, healing, AND dpsing. At most, you can choose between 2 roles.

 

B) Dual spec DOES NOT make the game easier. Mobs dont have less health, do less damage, or hand out more loot because dual spec is implimented.

 

C) Dual spec is an option that was added into WoW as a quality of life improvement for GROUP players (ie, raiders). When you have 15 people that can't raid because the wife of one of their tanks got into a car accident, "level up another toon" is not an acceptable answer. The entire purpose is to make forming successful groups easier...you know this IS a group game, right? You know how people are complaining that it feels like a single player game? Dual spec is one way to help change that, because the group quests and group aspects of the game will be more readily available to EVERYONE.

 

D) Your argument against character 'uniqueness' has nothing to do with dual spec. Your problem is with the option of RESPECCING. Players can already change roles, and since i dont see you asking for this option to be removed, I will assume you are ok with that choice. It doesnt make your character any less 'unique'. There are 8 classes, and 24 primary specs (plus mirror versions on the other side). The very idea of you being "unique" because of your spec or role, when there are a pre-defined number of options, is silly, and flat out false. You're not unique. If everyone is different and unique, the game is impossible to balance. In an MMORPG, you never will be unique. You need to either accept this, or move on.