Melee Classes at HUGE disadvantage

[Nerfhammer]

First off let me start by saying I really dont like the resolve system. But if that is what we have to use then fine, but at least try to make it fair. I havent played every class yet, but as far as i know every class has a stun. Add to that all the classes have other abilities in the form of knockbacks, snares, and knockdowns.

 

Ok lets look at the difference between melee and ranged classes. Personally I play a sith assassin so that is the base of where I am coming from. The melee classes have to get into melee range. In a one on one situation stealth helps with this(or leap if u are a warrior). but that only helps starting out. So ranged has abilities to keep us away. knockbacks, stuns, knockdowns, snares. to a melee character ALL of these serve the same purpose. They all completely stop the damage output of the melee class. However, where it gets irritating is that snares are not affected by resolve.

 

So melee classes are at a disadvantage because there is an effective CC that is completely ignored by resolve. A melee could be effectively taken out of a fight just by snaring him before stunning. a full snare or 2(which the melee shouldn't cc break) followed by a couple of stuns and you are as good as dead. Not to mention most snares are on relatively low CDs.

 

Normally MMOs make up for this by having melee be quite a bit more beefy than ranged classes. this is not the case in ToR. The only relatively squishy ranged class is the sniper/gunslinger.

 

So does this sound about right or am I missing something that makes up for this disadvantage?

 

EDIT. I do understand that operatives/smugglers have a ton of burst from opener, but that is a different problem.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Nerfhammer

[Jooji]

First off let me start by saying I really dont like the resolve system. But if that is what we have to use then fine, but at least try to make it fair. I havent played every class yet, but as far as i know every class has a stun. Add to that all the classes have other abilities in the form of knockbacks, snares, and knockdowns.

 

Ok lets look at the difference between melee and ranged classes. Personally I play a sith assassin so that is the base of where I am coming from. The melee classes have to get into melee range. In a one on one situation stealth helps with this(or leap if u are a warrior). but that only helps starting out. So ranged has abilities to keep us away. knockbacks, stuns, knockdowns, snares. to a melee character ALL of these serve the same purpose. They all completely stop the damage output of the melee class. However, where it gets irritating is that snares are not affected by resolve.

 

So melee classes are at a disadvantage because there is an effective CC that is completely ignored by resolve. A melee could be effectively taken out of a fight just by snaring him before stunning. a full snare or 2(which the melee shouldn't cc break) followed by a couple of stuns and you are as good as dead. Not to mention most snares are on relatively low CDs.

 

Normally MMOs make up for this by having melee be quite a bit more beefy than ranged classes. this is not the case in ToR. The only relatively squishy ranged class is the sniper/gunslinger.

 

So does this sound about right or am I missing something that makes up for this disadvantage?

 

You must be terrible.

 

A good/geared melee can wreck face.

[dsingh]

I play a shadow/assasin(full battlemaster), you just haven't learned your class yet. I suggest you keep playing and not do what your doing now.

[JediDuckling]

First off let me start by saying I really dont like the resolve system. But if that is what we have to use then fine, but at least try to make it fair. I havent played every class yet, but as far as i know every class has a stun. Add to that all the classes have other abilities in the form of knockbacks, snares, and knockdowns.

 

Ok lets look at the difference between melee and ranged classes. Personally I play a sith assassin so that is the base of where I am coming from. The melee classes have to get into melee range. In a one on one situation stealth helps with this(or leap if u are a warrior). but that only helps starting out. So ranged has abilities to keep us away. knockbacks, stuns, knockdowns, snares. to a melee character ALL of these serve the same purpose. They all completely stop the damage output of the melee class. However, where it gets irritating is that snares are not affected by resolve.

 

So melee classes are at a disadvantage because there is an effective CC that is completely ignored by resolve. A melee could be effectively taken out of a fight just by snaring him before stunning. a full snare or 2(which the melee shouldn't cc break) followed by a couple of stuns and you are as good as dead. Not to mention most snares are on relatively low CDs.

 

Normally MMOs make up for this by having melee be quite a bit more beefy than ranged classes. this is not the case in ToR. The only relatively squishy ranged class is the sniper/gunslinger.

 

So does this sound about right or am I missing something that makes up for this disadvantage?

 

EDIT. I do understand that operatives/smugglers have a ton of burst from opener, but that is a different problem.

 

i totaly agree with the melee being at dissadvantage but thats how it is in all mmo's :/

[Rogmar]

They're fine.

[Cebby]

melee trains in this game rule. point in fact, a balanced groop without range but with heals are great.

 

If you are que'in solo, you get what you get. If you are que'in without heals, or even with heals.. don't give people line of sight, pick your battles.

 

A huttball players grabs the ball and runs ahead, dies in a sea of red. Is it his teams fault or should he have backed off and let someone get ahead for a pass.

 

A huttball player grabs the ball and runs ahead, his groop follows him and he gets shields, heals and punt support and scores.

 

it takes tactics and a tight knit groop to win most fights, wz or ilum. Lately melee trains have wrecked me more than any range. I just duck around a corner and lure them in.

[Nerfhammer]

im sorry, but all these "nuh uh" posts are useless. not a single post that disagreed with me had any explanation as to why...yes melee classes CAN do just fine and yes if you have a healer healing you thru the snares you can still do dps...this still does not address the issue of ranged classes having an advantage over melee classes...

 

all of the "advice" given to me assuming im terrible at this game could be used by ranged classes the same as melee. yes a mob of melee characters will kill a group of characters that are spread out...but so will a mob of ranged characters. The fact it is a "disadvantage" is not to say they are terrible, but rather that a ranged character of equal gear and skill has an inherent advantage.

[Xtinkt]

Its very simple, in pseudo 1v1 scenarios. (There are always mini 1v1s going on in most team games)

 

Scenario 1 - Some range gets first 2 hits on you before you see him. Get out of LOS. Walk a different way. He will pick another target, heal up and go get first hit on him. Becomes even easier for a sin with force speed + stealth

 

Scenario 2 - You get first hit, he slows you and tries to kite. He still has to STOP AND CAST to kill you. The rest of this should become very obvious.

 

 

In any other scenario with someone else hitting you while you are slowed and kited you are ****ed. Life sucks sometimes. Make a healer friend.

[Bigtusk]

If you know your class you wont do as bad the end.

[QuietGoneJinn]

The biggest problem is the ranged classes. They're way too powerful for having the additional range advantage. That's supposed to be the whole (and only) advantage of range: You get 'free shots' on your enemies before they can get within range to begin attacking you. Instead, ranged classes get all the free shots AND have ridiculously over-powered close-combat melees (Scoundrels and Operatives getting multiple melee hits of 5-6k+ is ridiculous).

 

Not only that, they have all the CCs, barriers, and knockbacks to keep close combat melee players at a distance (Which goes back to their initial class advantage: Range).

 

Add in fields like Huttball with clear ranged combat/knockback advantages (The scafolding areas), and it's just completely imbalanced.

 

tl;dr Ranged classes get to have their cake and eat it too.

 

 

Got my 67 Datacrons, but the Warrior class (Marauder particularly) is STILL pretty weak (Needs the greatest buff of ALL the classes bar-none). Although I'm not lvl 50 yet.

Edited January 22, 2012 by QuietGoneJinn

[dalehitchy]

This is how PVP goes for my Warrior Tank .... 1 v 1

 

I either force leap first... or begin to attack, either way... it doesnt help much either way... because i get knocked back, coupled with a long stun... ok... i can get out of that one stun and force leap.... again im pushed back... ok... ill have to run in close... oh wait.... there strafing ... i cant get close.. but there shooting me all the while... force leap is on cool down... im dead

[Rykzon]

This is how PVP goes for my Warrior Tank .... 1 v 1

 

I either force leap first... or begin to attack, either way... it doesnt help much either way... because i get knocked back, coupled with a long stun... ok... i can get out of that one stun and force leap.... again im pushed back... ok... ill have to run in close... oh wait.... there strafing ... i cant get close.. but there shooting me all the while... force leap is on cool down... im dead

 

So they burned every knockback on a tank. Meanwhile your dps melees wrack them. Mission accomplished. Your dps melees are not wracking them? Okay, blame them.

[Gaidax]

Line of Sight... You say roots are unfair, but you don't really have to deal with LoS which just as bad...

[dalehitchy]

So they burned every knockback on a tank. Meanwhile your dps melees wrack them. Mission accomplished. Your dps melees are not wracking them? Okay, blame them.

 

i never expect to out dps anyone as a tank... but they fact that i can barely get hits 1 vs 1

[Jendrick]

Its very simple, in pseudo 1v1 scenarios. (There are always mini 1v1s going on in most team games)

 

Scenario 1 - Some range gets first 2 hits on you before you see him. Get out of LOS. Walk a different way. He will pick another target, heal up and go get first hit on him. Becomes even easier for a sin with force speed + stealth

 

Scenario 2 - You get first hit, he slows you and tries to kite. He still has to STOP AND CAST to kill you. The rest of this should become very obvious.

 

 

In any other scenario with someone else hitting you while you are slowed and kited you are ****ed. Life sucks sometimes. Make a healer friend.

 

it IS very simple. it's so simple it's wrong

 

in your first scenario your just admitting he's right but saying he should avoid the guy and hope for the best, or implying a non stealth should reroll a stealth toon... saying reroll just validates his point.

 

In the second scenario you're suggesting that he's going to close the gap because the first guy has to stop, which is misleading. there are ranged attacks that can be used on the move and there's more than one way to move your enemy out of range (and only one way for your enemy to close the gap once you do). A BH can just keep knocking you back and spamming tracer missiles, not taking damage and dishing out dps... and even if by some miracle the melee closes on him and the BH doesn't use a different knockback/stun, he can just outdamage you by spamming the same attack while he uses his defensive abilities/armor/high hitpoints, easily finishing you off considering you're already at a disadvantage by the time you get back to him (if you're stupid enough to actually go back and try to fight him)

 

inquisitors have plenty of ways to keep you off of them and they're only... 6 seconds away from another force lightning? between knockbacks, stuns and force armor, they can easily fill the gap between the time one lightning cools down and another one comes up, and that's if they don't use force run to kite..

 

OP is right, posturing about how amazing melee classes are doesn't make them on par, especially if you can't explain why without being disingenuous... or just ignorant.

[Mirthadrond]

Never bring a knife to a gun fight???

[Vlaid]

I've been playing a bit of both melee and range. I played nothing but melee in my last few MMO's so I'm quite familair with how to play melee.

 

Melee have a LARGE disadvantage in this game compared to range. It's just a range DPS's game atm. You can overcome those disadvantages with support from healers/tanks ect....but in the end, I'd have to say range DPS is easier to stay alive with, get kills with, defend nodes with....I can't really say there's anything I would rank melee as "superior" to range in. Maybe interrupting I suppose.

[EmperorKaan]

I disagree, a good melee can screw me over pretty well.

[Nerfhammer]

what is with all the LoS talk...

 

People are STILL not getting the point. If melee breaks LoS then they arent doing anything either. That has no effect on this discussion.

 

the point is most classes have roughly the same number of cc abilities, BUT melee have the disadvantage of being affected by snares, which have no effect on resolve.

 

I am not saying melee is bad, or good. Im not saying ranged is bad or good. Im talking about resolve and snare and the fact that melee being affected by snare is effectively the same as stunning them(unless there happens to be a target that decides to hang out on top of you).

 

It seems to me like ToR decided to err on the side of giving everyone the same abilities(stuns, knockdowns, knockbacks, snares, slows, ect). however since ranged have the obvious advantage of dealing dmg at ranged melee should have something to make up for this. Sometimes it is increased survivability or more ways to break out of cc or close the gap than a ranged has abilities to keep us away.

[Drakks]

My guardian is 50, and AT 50 there isn't a class out there that, by virtue of class alone, I'm going to lose to. I feel very competitive in pvp at the cap.

 

However, leveling him up was rough compared to other classes, and there is a significant difference in pvp when you're talking ranged vs. melee -- and it's horrible in the teens and 20's, and starts trying to level out in the 30s as you get a few more tools. The ease of which ranged can apply damage to the target is a whole different universe then low ot mid level melee trying to stay on a target and swing.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Drakks

[Vlaid]

LOS is actually an advantage as range, not a disadvantage. As range you can stay near los and use los to block certain range dps from hitting you, allowing you to throttle who is able to hit you while doing your full damage to the target you picked out according to the way the los is positioned.

 

Melee can't do this. LOS is a far bigger advantage to range than it is to melee, so citing "range can be LOS'ed" as an advantage to being melee.....well that's just silly.

[Caelrie]

i totaly agree with the melee being at dissadvantage but thats how it is in all mmo's :/

 

Only if you're bad.

[Caelrie]

The biggest problem is the ranged classes. They're way too powerful for having the additional range advantage. That's supposed to be the whole (and only) advantage of range: You get 'free shots' on your enemies before they can get within range to begin attacking you. Instead, ranged classes get all the free shots AND have ridiculously over-powered close-combat melees (Scoundrels and Operatives getting multiple melee hits of 5-6k+ is ridiculous).

How can you comment on PvP balance when you don't even understand the classes? Scoundrels and Operatives hit like that in melee range because they're MELEE CLASSES.

[fungihoujo]

i never expect to out dps anyone as a tank... but they fact that i can barely get hits 1 vs 1

 

Why are you fighting 1v1 as a tank? Do you not understand what a tank is there to do? You can't even be taunting or guarding if you're 1v1.

 

Please, don't complain when you're not even playing your role the right way.

[Sollon]

How can you comment on PvP balance when you don't even understand the classes? Scoundrels and Operatives hit like that in melee range because they're MELEE CLASSES.

 

No they hit like that cause their burst is op.

troll on

Edited January 22, 2012 by Sollon