'True' Jedi Roleplay must be TERRIBLE!

[Itkovian]

The Jedi Code is a mantra, and cannot be taken literally, as mantra are designed to help one internalize a set of teachings. Jedi are both allowed and encouraged to experience and understand their emotions in a nice, healthy manner.

 

Very well put.

 

Thank you.

[Digital-N-Plus]

Agreed about being able to have / show emotion but not acting on it. I present Obi-Wan Kenobi's film incarnations. When Maul slew Qui-Gonn, Obi was clearly VERY P.O'd. But he didn't allow it to cloud his judgment nor muck up his fighting. A Jedi allows the Force to flow through him. That is what makes them able to go toe-to-toe with the Sith who are fueled by those emotions.

 

Obi-Wan just seemed to be almost completely centered throughout the whole series. He yells at Anakin, laughs, makes sarcastic comments, and obviously holds very strong feelings for his Padawan. But in the end, he nearly kills Anakin, says his piece, disarms him (literally), and walks away.

 

I don't think a Jedi could really go down the path of evil without really having a good reason to. Sure, they could muck up every now and then, but even Jolee ends up slowly becoming more Light Side if your Revan turns out that was in KOTOR 1.

 

Another example would be Luke. He was always rebellious when it came to the dogmatic teachings that Yoda tried to cling to. But I think when Luke saved Han and Leia on Bespin, Yoda and Obi sort of shrugged and figured that they were getting old and a new age of Jedi was approaching.

 

The only thing I think Obi-Wan did wrong was lie to Luke about Vader and then try to BS his way through it. But eh, it worked out in the end.

[smartalectwo]

The Jedi Code isn't about never failing; no-one's perfect. Everyone struggles at some point. It's more about being honest with yourself and others about your failures.

 

The points at which you struggle are the interesting parts of the roleplay.

Edited December 17, 2011 by smartalectwo

[Tgirgis]

I cringe when I read these posts, because I knew this would happen. Here is the thing, the Sith are not really psychopaths, and the Jedi are in no way emotionless, but they are in SWTOR. It is important to understand that Bioware is currently obsessed with this idea of forcing players to constantly make "trade offs" in which the player must always suffer a consequence for each decision. Choose to play a Jedi and you are emotionless, or choose to play a Sith and you are a psychopath, killing your own empire’s soldiers, citizens, and slaves then drinking their blood and defecating on their bodies while giggling.

 

There are several major problems with this:

 

1. It constricts the flow of fun, ensuring that everyone is somewhat displeased at all times.

 

2. It creates a lack of controversy in the storyline, meaning it is childish and often boring.

 

3. Because of the lack of controversy, we will not get the same quality of lore that we got in KOTOR 1. We will keep getting lore that involves a dangerously obese inquisitor who exists only to be “evil.”

 

4. Players will completely lose faith in bioware’s ability to write, and will soon continue to play the game with their own idea of what a Sith/Jedi should be, regardless of what happens during the storyline. Even if we do get the same quality of lore as we did from KOTOR 1, it will go unnoticed; everyone will be predisposed to the idea that any lore produced by Bioware is garbage and will automatically reject anything Bioware writes, even if it makes perfect sense. (We saw this happen in World of Warcraft)

 

5. It creates a disconnect between the player and their character, causing them to often abandon the character, and sometimes the faction all together, jumping from one alt to another until the realize they cannot fully connect with any of them. At this point, one of two things will usually happen:

 

--- The player will return to which ever class they initially chose and just go through the motions with little interest in order to hit level 50.

--- The player will stop really caring about the storyline/lore and will embrace the idea of being an emotionless robot (if Jedi) or angry serial killer (if Sith). These players will usually jump over to the empire and never really care to connect with their character, they just sit there blindly choosing DS options and go “Haha, that’s funny, I stabbed him”

[Strangiato]

I cringe when I read these posts, because I knew this would happen. Here is the thing, the Sith are not really psychopaths, and the Jedi are in no way emotionless, but they are in SWTOR. It is important to understand that Bioware is currently obsessed with this idea of forcing players to constantly make "trade offs" in which the player must always suffer a consequence for each decision. Choose to play a Jedi and you are emotionless, or choose to play a Sith and you are a psychopath, killing your own empire’s soldiers, citizens, and slaves then drinking their blood and defecating on their bodies while giggling.

 

There are several major problems with this:

 

1. It constricts the flow of fun, ensuring that everyone is somewhat displeased at all times.

 

2. It creates a lack of controversy in the storyline, meaning it is childish and often boring.

 

3. Because of the lack of controversy, we will not get the same quality of lore that we got in KOTOR 1. We will keep getting lore that involves a dangerously obese inquisitor who exists only to be “evil.”

 

4. Players will completely lose faith in bioware’s ability to write, and will soon continue to play the game with their own idea of what a Sith/Jedi should be, regardless of what happens during the storyline. Even if we do get the same quality of lore as we did from KOTOR 1, it will go unnoticed; everyone will be predisposed to the idea that any lore produced by Bioware is garbage and will automatically reject anything Bioware writes, even if it makes perfect sense. (We saw this happen in World of Warcraft)

 

5. It creates a disconnect between the player and their character, causing them to often abandon the character, and sometimes the faction all together, jumping from one alt to another until the realize they cannot fully connect with any of them. At this point, one of two things will usually happen:

 

--- The player will return to which ever class they initially chose and just go through the motions with little interest in order to hit level 50.

--- The player will stop really caring about the storyline/lore and will embrace the idea of being an emotionless robot (if Jedi) or angry serial killer (if Sith). These players will usually jump over to the empire and never really care to connect with their character, they just sit there blindly choosing DS options and go “Haha, that’s funny, I stabbed him”

 

I disagree and agree with this to a certain extent. I made a Jedi Knight and went full light. I loved it. However at some points in time I did feel like I was "emotionless" For example with Kira, during some our convos I felt like she was my friend (I didn't romance her) but I never talked to her as a friend it seemed. My choices were either very "jedi-like" or just insults. But I remember Bioware creating characters that I actually grew found of.

 

I believe an imp called watcher one on Taris was the most respectable imp I had met, and I actually let him go as opposed to send him to jail like the other imps. There was also a female Voss that I worked with and her character was very moving and I was able to show that I cared for her on my Jedi, and if they gave me the chance to romance I would have. I think Bioware did a pretty damn good job for the most part and I enjoyed being a Jedi.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Strangiato

[TheNevet]

Emotion, yet peace is the original and correct version of the code.

 

what?

[TheNevet]

I started to read this thread cause I thought there might actually be an intelligent debate here.

[Erevan_Kindelar]

You know I had agreed with this. Until you get the mission I. The early Jedi force-users level to go spy on two lovebird padawans. The quest line and it's options if you turn them in reallly seem to push the "nope you can't have this at all" idea.

 

Which I thought would make for interesting RP if no Jedi can have relationships/family - lol

 

Without wanting to spoil the Knight storyline too much, you get to expand on this relationship/family issue somewhat with one of your potential romance options.

Basically, Jedi "marriages" and having children are allowed in some cases, but only under very strict conditions and with regular assessments by other Masters.

[TheNevet]

Without wanting to spoil the Knight storyline too much, you get to expand on this relationship/family issue somewhat with one of your potential romance options.

Basically, Jedi "marriages" and having children are allowed in some cases, but only under very strict conditions and with regular assessments by other Masters.

 

that's an invention of bioware

[Rayla_Felana]

that's an invention of bioware

 

That's been part of canon since before the prequels were released.

[Meira_Arirai]

As previous posters have said, it's a mantra. The easiest path to understanding Jedi is to remember that they're space Buddhists, with a particular leaning toward Taoist-influenced varieties of Buddhism like Zen.

 

"There is no emotion" doesn't mean that Jedi are supposed to repress their emotions. It means that they acknowledge that their emotions are something that arises out of all of the factors that come together to make their perception of a situation, not something that's solid and independently-existing and "real" (see what I just did there?). Instead of fixating on or compulsively chasing after pleasant feelings, and repressing or running away from unpleasant feelings, they work to open a space between their feelings and knee-jerk, instinctive action, and in that space, they have a greater number of choices as to how to act than they otherwise might. Buddhists call that "mindfulness."

[Boissi]

I find roleplaying a Jedi to be very satisfying. The people you help are in such awe of you; of your selflessness and willingness to help. It's like playing a comic superhero. I never kill when I don't have to, and my example seems to rub on to others as well, sometimes making them see that I'm right. I always give people a second chance. I convert sith to our cause. It's just cool.

 

The no emotion part to me just means you never judge a situation based on your emotions, but always use reason and logic. It can sometimes make you seem like a fairly cold person, but at least my Jedi Knight seems to have a very good heart, even though at times your choices aren't ones that others, thinking with their emotions, would agree with. Sometimes the choices are hard, but that's also one thing that makes playing a Jedi so fun. What is right and what feels right are often a different thing.

[RepublicGurl]

I know, I mean by True Jedi someone that follows it to the T and shows no emotion.

 

I roleplay an orthodox Light Side Jedi, and I love it. The Code is a guide- not a literal mandate.

 

When it says, There is no emotion, there is only peace, it does not mean a Jedi is emotionless. It can be taken to mean that while there are always emotions that can be turbulent and powerful- even chaotic at times -underneath that there is always serene peace.

 

My Jedi Knight follows and honors the Jedi Code to the best of her abilities, and yet she is just as apt to smiling, laughing, feeling upset or even angry at times just like anyone else.

 

However, the knowledge and wisdom she gains from the Code allows her to internalize said emotions, analyze them, accept them for what they are, and then to let them go.

 

It allows her to keep a clear, unclouded mind when faced with difficult (or not so difficult) situations. She knows that regardless of how exciting or upsetting a situation she might find herself in or emotions she may feel- those emotions are reactions to her environment and do not define her.

 

Her emotions are part of her, but they are not her.

 

And she refuses to let her emotions- no matter how "good" or "bad" to ultimately take away her inner peace.

 

The best way to put it is that she knows she is part of the Force- not of the physical world. And so, with the Code helping guide her, she practices loving unattachment. She may enjoy an experience, or be hurt by one, but at the end of the day she trusts the Force enough to let those emotions go.

 

She will savor the happy experience without craving for more, or seeking to keep that feeling, and if something sad happens, she grieves and then lets it go to prevent prolonged suffering.

 

Jedi respect and cherish life- the Code does wonders in allowing a Jedi who stays true to it to enjoy life without becoming attached to it.

 

... at least, that's how my Jedi Knight sees things.

Edited March 13, 2012 by RepublicGurl

[ASTRONAYTIS]

My question so far is, love interest with companions. I know first thing I think of is look what happened to Anakin, but there have been cases in books anyways where jedi have married and the order was ok with it. Heck even some of thier children have gone on to be even more powerful jedi than thier parents.

 

That being said, will I be completely screwed over if I find my jedi falling in love? Will the order kick me out? I mean this story line is in depth, and one of the first few missions is busting those two who are in love but being very foolish about it.

 

Thoughts? Experiences yet? Would love to hear them.

 

If you can Remember from prequel Anakin had no Father but he was born by the force.

Secondly when he had the affair with Padme they were afraid of the Jedi Council learn about the affair.

[ASTRONAYTIS]

Well if you read Plato's Republic he is very clear about a society where logic and rationality dominated. In fact, this perfect ideal society would be ruled by philosophy kings and poets/artists would necessarily have to be denied entrance. This is because art and poetry stir the emotions, which Plato argued lead to dangerous consequences. He actually likened the poet or artist as being 'mad' or in a state of ekstasis when they created their work, meaning it wasn't even their own work they were producing because they were literally out of their mind when it happened.

 

Even Roman philosophers considered the idea of distancing oneself from their emotions. The great Stoic like philosophers like Marcus Aurelius, spoke about how by living life in the middle of the continuum of human emotion you were healthier and more mentally stable than if you lived in one of the extremes (such as pure joy and ecstasy, or hatred and cruelty). By trying to distance yourself from your emotions you can more reasonably react to a situation. Granted this means you have to shrug off winning the lottery, but at the same time your house burning down doesn't send you into a rage. Apparently the Stoics thought that the extremes of emotion was not the place you wanted to ground your worldview.

 

I see the Jedi as following the traditions of Stoic philosophers and to a certain extent agree with the concept that allowing yourself to sail into the far extremes of human emotion is not the best way to go about life.

 

 

just to make a correction Plato was Greek

[Aribethx]

There is NO emotion.

 

It's funny to see all these Jedi fanbois come out of the woodworks and try to insert their own interpretation so they don't come off like mindless followers of some foolish code. Face it, you have emotion. Your code is flawed.

[Vagessel]

I agree that it is unbearably boring but not in the straightforward way. I haven't been able to identify with a Jedi character yet because they are as foreign to normalcy as the medieval monastic orders.

 

During the dark ages much of the ancient knowledge that was preserved was done by monasteries, keepers of knowledge, servants of the people, with strict moral codes (openly.) they were also expected to meditate several hours through the day etc.

 

They were not squeaky clean, however. They were men and human. So yea they'd get drunk or party with the random ****** once in a while. But the day to day was this boring alien strict snoozefest normal people would not impose on themselves.

 

If you haven't done so yet go read "The Name of the Rose." it's a medieval mystery thriller and the way I imagine a practical jedi order to operate.

 

Which is why I find it so enjoyable to be merciless on them on my Sith's.

[ErikModi]

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_Code

 

Of particular interest to this debate, I think, is a quote by Dooku, under the heading "Conquer Arrogance:"

 

"The acceptance of others is not a guarantee. Like everyone else, a Jedi is accepted or not based on his behavior. The Jedi who believes that he is more important than others only demonstrates that his opinion is to be ignored."

 

Now, first I want to explain something about Vulcans, with whom the Jedi are so often compared based on the "There is no emotion," line.

 

According to the Vulcan way, feeling of emotion is not forbidden. Technically, even EXPRESSION of emotion would not be forbidden, however this has become a cultural taboo among Vulcans to allow the expression of emotion. What is forbidden is to ACT SOLELY based on one's emotions.

 

Example: Someone bumps into you as you walk down the street. You get angry at him. Your anger wants you to bust him in the jaw. So you do.

 

The Vulcan way is to use logic to analyze this situation and determine if, in fact, busting the other person in the jaw is the logical response to what just occurred. Really, it isn't.

 

But wait, I hear you cry, don't we as human beings do this exact same thing every minute of every day? Decide to not let petty grievances escalate into giant conflicts?

 

Well, yes and no. Most often, we are able to realize that whatever happened isn't worth making a big deal over. Yet, how many times a day are there barfights, road rage, beatings, and full-scale wars fought over things as simple as a gaze held too long or perceived slight?

 

Like many sci-fi aliens, Vulcans are an aspect of humanity exaggerated for purposes of exploration. Taking that very human response of acting totally on impulse, fighting over any little thing, results in a race that is a hairsbreadth away from turning their planet into a radioactive asteroid belt. So, they adapt a principle of supreme logic, acting only on that data which is necessary for the situation.

 

Does that mean that a Vulcan should never factor emotion into his decision making process? ABSOLUTELY NOT (though there are many episodes, some of them quite good, where conflict arises from a Vulcan surrounded by humans failing to take their emotions into account.) Knowing that other races do not share the Vulcan outlook (and, in fact, the Vulcan concept of Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combination [iDIC] means that not only do Vulcans accept that not everyone is like them, they RELISH it), a Vulcan logically must take that differing veiwpoint into account. For instance, if a logical course of action meets with emotional resistance, logically, a Vulcan should find a way to quell such resistance, instead of simply saying "this is logical, stuff your petty emotions and get on with it."

 

But Vulcans do still feel (a fact which, sadly, many Star Trek writers forget far too often.) Look at the recent reboot movie. Sarek himself says "Emotions run deep within our race. More deeply, in some ways, than in humans." He even admits to Spock that he married a human woman because he loved her, though typical Vulcan cultural taboo prevents him from openly acknowledging the emotion in any but the most extreme of circumstances. . . but even watching the Original Series episode in which Sarek and Amanda first appear, you seem them very constantly touching fingertips. It has been established several times that Vulcans are a sort of touch-telepath, and Spock even has what amounts to a foreplay scene with a Romulan commander where all they do is stroke each others hands with fingertips. So this bit of contact between Sarek and Amanda is most likely the Vulcan equivalent of a human's affectionate peck on the cheek. It's a full-on PDA FROM A VULCAN TO THE WOMAN HE LOVES! No emotion my muscular buttocks.

 

Now, on to the Jedi. Of COURSE Jedi have emotions! Watch them in the movies, for crying out loud! Obi-Wan and Yoda both exhibit a sense of humor. Obi-Wan is certainly just shy of furious with Anakin after Padme falls out of the ship as they chase Dooku. And he's certainly quite annoyed with him during their argument in Padme's quarters. And he's incredibly distraught over Qui-Gon's death. Hell, he's actually CRYING.

 

Let's look at an oft-debated quandry from The Phantom Menace. Darth Maul has just struck down Qui-Gon Jinn, and Obi-Wan is understandably upset. When the barriers drop, Obi-Wan attacks Maul. Now, if he's still allowing his anger at this Sith who's just killed his Master to fuel him, he's drawing on the Dark Side. If, however, he recalls the line from the Jedi Code, "There is no emotion, there is peace," puts his anger aside, and fights Maul not out of a desire for revenge, out of hate, or out of rage, but because if he does not stop Maul now, Maul will undo everything the Queen has been fighting for up until this point, because he must prevent this Sith from killing again, then he does not succumb to the Dark Side.

 

Understanding one's emotion, acknowledging it, and then setting it aside so that one can determine if what you are about to do needs to be done, or if it is simply your emotion pushing you into it, that is the key of the Jedi way. Emotions are but one piece of data in the decision-making process: they cannot be allowed to rule it, nor can they be ignored completely.

[DaWaffle]

A "true" Jedi isn't an idiot. I rest my case.

[masterkoto]

Topic Jedi & Love:

 

I always had the idea that Jedi can love and also are allowed to love, but only if they can master it due to its a very strong emotion related with many others. And there is always the danger of getting to much dependent on who you love, which would lead to the dark side with fear of loss and sayings like "I can't live without you".

 

I think many Jedi-Masters have misinterpreted the Codex to forbid young Jedi to love. I think they feared, they couldn't deal with it and thats a very very strong weakness of many Jedi, because this fear can easily be used to get someone to the dark side.

[VanorDM]

People really need to stop pointing at stuff that happens on Typhon as somehow being an example of what being a Jedi is.

 

Typhon is where padawans are trained. The rules they live under are not the same that Jedi live under. It's just like Basic training for the Army. When I was in basic I lived under different rules then I did when I was done with Basic Training.

[MGriffith]

There is no emotion, there is peace.

There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.

There is no passion, there is serenity.

There is no chaos, there is harmony.

There is no death, there is the Force.

 

That is a code, or something that jedi should attempt to live up to.

Also, it does not say that the jedi can not -feel- emotions. Indeed, if they could not feel emotions then that little line would not have to be in the code.

 

It does say that a jedi should not let his or her emotions lead him or her. Instead they should strive for inner peace and a calm mind (see also point 3).

 

Emotions are dangerous to a jedi because they lead you to act without considering the consequences. They are also dangerous because as a jedi their duty is to -all- people. They should not put the people they are emotionally attached to ahead of the others.

Considering the amount of damage one can do with the force it makes a lot of sense for jedi to try and control themselves from acting rash or out of strong emotions. That is what the code demands of jedi. Not that they turn into emotionless machines.

[RowanThursday]

Code- something which is codified. I.e. generalised, stratified, rendered somewhat absolutist for the sake of emphasis, and of necessity somewhat ossified.

 

To quote old Ben himself: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes".

 

A Sith- or a Jedi on a dangerous path himself- might read the Jedi code and think "OMG WTH I CANT HAVE EMOTINS!!!"- but a sensible and wise Jedi would look at it and think "OK, so one needs to be able to set aside one's emotions to achieve true inner peace. This means that, if I'm aware that emotion X is interfering with my judgement, I should counter it, calm and centre myself, *not* 'Argh I just looked at a pretty girl I'm falling to the dark side oh noes'.

 

Of course, the Jedi Order themselves are partly responsible for this. If Anakin had been able to go to Obi-Wan- or Yoda, and say "Um... I'm sort of married, and I'm kind of having nightmares about my wife dying in childbirth, and Senator Palpatine kind of says he could help me by teaching me Sith stuff...", then Yoda could have responded "Ah, Sith stuff at stopping people dying, quite good is. Medcentre and good medidroid, however, better is, here, from Jedi council have loan, private ante-natal care for to pay for"... and a whole lot of suffering could have been averted.

 

Unfortunately, the Jedi *authorities*- not the Jedi philosophy itself- were flawed, their own fear of the *risk* of people falling to the dark side causing them to take, or allow a perception of, an unduly draconian line, leaving a vulnerable individual shut out and prey to the manipulations of Palpatine.

 

As far as 'true Jedi roleplay must be terrible'... why?

 

Is RPing a monk dull? I agree that the lack of 'light side but not po-faced' VO responses is a bit annoying, but personally I'm finding a lot of fun in the whole "I'm furious and I want to kill you-- but... no... " - aspect of learning and being guided by the Jedi code, of interpreting it, of sometimes defying it when I feel it's flat wrong

e.g. the engineers on the Esseles, where the Jedi code would probably have dictated 'take the route that brings safety to the greatest number, and save the civilians', whereas my Jedi took the 'if there's another way, I'm taking that. If there isn't, then I'll find another way somehow' route.

, or indeed the 'being serious about what I do, not necessarily about how I do it' side of things.

 

What a Jedi shouldn't do is allow emotion to cloud their judgement. They're not Cybermen, they don't have emotions surgically cut out of their brains.

[VanorDM]

Face it, you have emotion. Your code is flawed.

 

Face it, you don't understand the Jedi Code at all. Because the line doesn't mean that there is a lack of emotion in the person, because that is clearly impossible to happen.

 

The point of the line is that emotion should not sway your decisions. Every Jedi in the movies clearly felt emotions and showed them on several occasions.

 

My Jedi Guardian has shown emotions on several occasions in the game as well, and I haven't received any dark side points for that.

[LyriaFrost]

There is NO emotion.

 

It's funny to see all these Jedi fanbois come out of the woodworks and try to insert their own interpretation so they don't come off like mindless followers of some foolish code. Face it, you have emotion. Your code is flawed.

 

Just like every sith is wrapped up in fifty feet of high-quality steel cables and chains, right? And that the sith are constantly at war, never resting at all, because they must never, EVER know "peace".

 

Right?

 

I mean, if you're going to take it literally...