No, You May Not Roll on Items for Another Class and Strip Out the Mods

[Matte_Black]

Your evidence of this please?

 

Let's say it is 100k and not a million, is the point about varying perspectives any less valid?

[ferroz]

I have never tried fighting naked, but I am sure this cannot be done, at least not without stressing and being very careful, and always getting near the edge of dying.

irrelevant. Quests and random green drops are more than sufficient for playing the game.

 

"has better stats" is not a need... it's a want, just the same as wanting for looks, or wanting for companions.

[kalexkhan]

I came into this thread thinking the loot etiquette would be a no brainer but the only thing clear to me now is that loot rules must be established before you start anything in order to be safe!

 

Maybe as the game evolves more the most widely accepted rules will become the established convention, but until then please discuss it before you start so theirs no surprises.

[ThiborF]

Your evidence of this please?

 

Fine ... 1million+ people who purchased the game

Better?

And there very well may be 1m+ with an active sub past the initial first 30 day.

 

Regardless, doesn't change the fact that you're not going to get a mass consensus on this topic and it's far easier to get 3 or 7 others to agree for the next 15-60 minutes of a group run then it is to repeatedly debate the issue here.

[ferroz]

This entire issue boils down to two things: priorities and courtesy

 

1. Priorities - Companions are used for PvE (usually solo) and, on PvP servers, open PvP. They are never used in warzones, rarely used in dungeons and never used in raids. In short, companions are used for only about half the content in the game. This automatically makes players a priority over companions

No, i don't raid, or do warzones. my companion is with me 99% of the time.

 

You're treating your priorities as the universal priorities. That's an extremely self centered world view.

 

You can obtain moddable gear via the GTN, planetary vendors, crafting, drops and PvP.

that' argument cuts both ways. You can obtain upgrades (whether moddable or not) via the GTN, planetary vendors, crafting, drops and PvP... So you're not actually making a point in favor of either "stats" = need or even NBG in general.

 

Those rolling need over a player of the appropriate class that genuinely needs (aka it's an upgrade for) that item is selfish and should not be tolerated in a group, period.

Need is a red herring. The correct word is want.

 

a person who genuinely wants something is not more entitled to it than any one involved in killing the thing that looted... this is true whether the item is wanted for it's bette stats, or if it's wanted to be used by a companion, or if it's wanted due to it's looks/

[sjmc]

"has better stats" is not a need... it's a want, just the same as wanting for looks, or wanting for companions.

This is pretty much true for "wanting" anything that is an upgrade for your main character, at least for anything before level 50 (can't speak for 50+). Nobody really "needs" anything that drops.

[PeterMAbraham]

Good day:

 

My personal opinion is that if a drop can be directly used (on the character in the group -- only the character in the group) by a group member, then they should need it (whether they can use it now -- on only their character, or whether they can use it in a few levels -- only on their character).

 

The concept of rolling need based on the ability to sell, the ability to remove mods to use, or that a given companion can use it somehow, WHEN a group member can use the item directly (either then and there or in a few levels) to me is outright selfish!!!

 

In those cases, kick them from the group (they are selfish, let them do it solo or group with other selfish people who can then fight among themselves and get nothing done), or leave the group and never associate with such selfish, inconsiderate people.

 

I don't know any MMO player whose motive for the game is to only play for a short while (i.e play a few months and quit, play x years and then quit).

 

Therefore, at least in my opinion, one should do their best to be kind and considerate to others as you never ever know when you will need their help.

 

That stated... Yes, mistakes happen. I've accidentally went with need even after I thought I read, read, read (timer was getting close to 0) and still didn't get the fact it was not something I could use... and I was with a group where a person missed it was "medium armor" (the stats matched, and he could use it) when there was a group member who could only wear medium armor (the stats benefited both of them).

 

Apologize, apology accepted, try to learn from the mistake so it is not repeated (at least often -- we are human), and move on.

 

But for those people who place their virtual companions in front of real human beings, who place profit over the human beings helping them on a quest, etc... let them be in their own universe where maybe after enough in fighting with other selfish, inconsiderate people will cause them to change their attitude.

 

Thank you.

[ferroz]

+1

 

I completely agree. Yet there are 80+ pages of the popular counter-argument, "The Need button is there and the game allows me to press it, so it must be right."

Actually, there are only a couple of people who posted that... mos of the actual counter arguments are quite different.

[Eldren]

Actually, there are only a couple of people who posted that... mos of the actual counter arguments are quite different.

 

I can't speak for others. I press the Need button if the item is an upgrade for me or one of the two companions I use most (Malavai Quinn or Jaesa Willsaam). If it's for one of my less-used companions, I typically pass, though if it's a meaningful upgrade I'll roll Greed.

 

But the thing to realize is this: if the Need button is there, and a player chooses it, whatever their rationale might be, it is their right, and no one has a right to tell them they can't due to the assumption of a social contract that other player might not acknowledge. Are there consequences? Possibly. Whether they're aware of them or not, however, the reality remains: the system lets them do something, they choose to do it, and they aren't objectively "in the wrong" for doing so.

[ferroz]

But for those people who place their virtual companions in front of real human beings,

Last time I checked, there isn't any gear in swtor that a real human being can wear... so at best that's a deceptive comparison.

 

People are prioritizing one of their virtual characters over one of your virtual characters. Why, exactly, is that wrong?

[Tadshackles]

Expecting to win the loot Bioware created for your class is not entitlement. Thinking that you deserve loot that was not designed for your class "just because I was there too" is entitlement.

 

The "loot" in this thread was NOT designed for your class. The mods were...

 

He rolled on the gear, you rolled on the mods. He won. Get over it!

[ferroz]

Regardless, doesn't change the fact that you're not going to get a mass consensus on this topic and it's far easier to get 3 or 7 others to agree for the next 15-60 minutes of a group run then it is to repeatedly debate the issue here.

Even if you get a mass consensus, it's not really reasonable to apply that to the 3 or 7 others that may have not been involved in that mass consensus or agree with it...

[sjmc]

the system lets them do something, they choose to do it, and they aren't objectively "in the wrong" for doing so.

They are wrong in that they are breaking the "Unwritten Rules of WoW". If this were WoW, that would be a problem. Edited January 27, 2012 by sjmc

[Creed_Buhallin]

The concept of rolling need based on the ability to sell, the ability to remove mods to use, or that a given companion can use it somehow, WHEN a group member can use the item directly (either then and there or in a few levels) to me is outright selfish!!!

This is the main point that people are disagreeing with.

 

What's the difference in use between a piece of equipment on your character and a piece of equipment on your companion? Extra Endurance gives me more hit points, and makes me survive better. More Cunning on Malavi makes him heal better, and makes me survive better. If it's a lightsaber I'm going to use, or a blaster I'm going to give to Vetter, both result in a DPS increase for my character. Why is one acceptable, but the other selfish?

 

People are too wrapped up in this idea of "You" and "you". Your companion is part of your character. Would you tell someone they couldn't roll on something because it went in the wrist slot instead of the main hand slot? Because that's really all it is giving it to a companion - putting it in a different slot on your character.

 

I can understand the arguments that companions don't benefit as much, but IMHO that's a serious can of worms. If you really want to start getting into debates of statistical analysis over who can make best use of an item, feel free - but if you're not going to consider how much of a stat someone has, how big the increase is, how long it might be until they could upgrade it again, etc, etc, etc, then you're not really doing that. You can't really drop "Companion isn't worth it, so you can't roll" unless you're going to consider everything else.

[Galbatorrix]

**What's the difference in use between a piece of equipment on your character and a piece of equipment on your companion? **

 

The companion likely wasn't in the FP. Non-participants get equal rights to loot now as well?

[owlinspace]

I can't believe there's even a discussion about this. If an Item drops made specifically for a certain class then the player in the party of that class should get the item, IF it is better than his current one. If people are to noobie to understand that some items are for certain classes then they should be educated.

 

The issue here, it seems, is that people enjoy beeing *****. Jokes on them when they get known for it and no one wants to group with them, or their alts.

[VanorDM]

The concept of rolling need based on the ability to sell, the ability to remove mods to use, or that a given companion can use it somehow, WHEN a group member can use the item directly (either then and there or in a few levels) to me is outright selfish!!!

 

There's a flaw in this line of thinking...

 

There are going to be times where gear is a bigger upgrade to me via my companion then it would be for a character. If I can increase the DPS on Kira by 20%, this is going to have a much larger impact on my play then if a Sage gets a 5% increase in DPS out of the same gear.

 

So as long as I'm playing with a companion the majority of the time, there is a very strong argument that item that my character doesn't wear, can actually be a fairly meaningful upgrade in terms of game play.

 

I fail to see how that makes me selfish, I am after all, rolling need on something that improves my character directly. If anything I could argue that the selfish person is the one who gets the least benefit out of it, yet rolls need.

 

People need to stop looking at loot in the black and white method they used in other games, because this isn't that game. Loot doesn't work the same way here, and trying to force the same rules simply doesn't make sense.

[Edryk]

They are wrong in that they are breaking the "Unwritten Rules of WoW". If this were WoW, that would be a problem.

 

This is not an unwritten rule of WoW. I assume you haven't played recently, because nowadays, people roll the highest priority on everything they can - for their friends, to DE, to sell, to trade, and to intentionally grief others.

 

People arguing on the side of being considerate to others are taking into account other people's desires, feelings and acting accordingly - and appreciate when the same consideration is shown to themselves.

 

Then you have a couple people here trolling 75+ pages arguing semantics - the difference between a 'need' and a 'want', and 'I can because it let's me'. Seriously people, stop responding to trolls and let it die. Be considerate to others and run your groups how you want. Community is what you make it; don't let it become like that other game.

[VanorDM]

The companion likely wasn't in the FP.

 

And if the companion was in the FP? I've run a number of FP's so far and had a companion in them. These were not lvl 50 hard mode FP's granted. But I'm pretty sure that loot drama isn't restricted to only lvl 50 hard mode FP's or ops either.

[Galbatorrix]

**There are going to be times where gear is a bigger upgrade to me via my companion then it would be for a character.**

 

Then you should run flashpoints with your companions and not other players. The player is the one present for the loot drop, not your companion.

 

And a Companion is not the same as a "wrist slot" item because the wrist slot item helped you contribute more to the FP. The companion didn't do anything at all.

[Eldren]

**There are going to be times where gear is a bigger upgrade to me via my companion then it would be for a character.**

 

Then you should run flashpoints with your companions and not other players. The player is the one present for the loot drop, not your companion.

 

And a Companion is not the same as a "wrist slot" item because the wrist slot item helped you contribute more to the FP. The companion didn't do anything at all.

 

This is where a breakdown is occurring. You don't consider a companion as "part" of a character. Others do. There's nothing you can say that will make them wrong. As long as companions can equip the same kinds of gear as players, they're going to remain a valid upgrade sink if their players say they are.

[Galbatorrix]

This is where a breakdown is occurring. You don't consider a companion as "part" of a character. Others do. There's nothing you can say that will make them wrong. As long as companions can equip the same kinds of gear as players, they're going to remain a valid upgrade sink if their players say they are.

 

 

The companion didn't contribute to the flash point. so he doesn't deserve loot. If disagreeing with that makes you feel better about stealing loot from people that DID contribute, think what ever you want.

[Creed_Buhallin]

**What's the difference in use between a piece of equipment on your character and a piece of equipment on your companion? **

 

The companion likely wasn't in the FP. Non-participants get equal rights to loot now as well?

Sorry, but this is silly. The Companion is not a separate player, or a separate entity. It is part of your character. This isn't any different than arguing that if I was healing through the FP I shouldn't be allowed to roll on a blaster which would be a DPS upgrade, because my DPS didn't contribute to the flashpoint.

 

I must pause here and give Bioware credit - a lot of people were concerned about companions. If Bioware has made them so interesting, lifelike, and believable that people seriously think they're a separate entity, they've succeeded admirably.

 

Of course, this also raises the question of whether or not the companion, if they ARE there, deserves their own loot roll? If they don't get one by virtue of not being present, then if they are they should have their own roll, right?

Edited January 27, 2012 by Creed_Buhallin

[VanorDM]

Then you should run flashpoints with your companions and not other players.

 

I have... So your point is, I can roll need for a companion if I have that companion active?

 

They helped complete the FP so they get equal rights to loot as everyone else then, right?

 

One thing that seems to come across here, that effects the argument, is some people seem to only believe loot rules matter at end game in OP's or HM FP's. Others are talking about gear from 1st to end game.

 

I'm pretty sure you are going to run into loot drama in situations that don't include end game loot.

[Eldren]

The companion didn't contribute to the flash point. so he doesn't deserve loot. If disagreeing with that makes you feel better about stealing loot from people that DID contribute, think what ever you want.

 

You're missing what I'm saying here. You don't get to be the authority on what is or isn't "acceptable" in the game, as much as you might like to be. It doesn't matter if the companion didn't contribute to the Flashpoint. The player did, and the player is the one using the upgrade, whether on themselves or on a companion. What a player does with loot they win is no one's business but theirs. Loot is not open to community approval for its disbursement, it's open to approval of the loot disbursement system. Anything else is a social courtesy, but not a social requirement.