wanderica Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 if I am able to press NEED, then i'm allowed to do it /thread Fine, press need. Just remember this isn't WoW with cross server LFG tools and auto grouping features, and people like you are the reason why. Do whatever you like, but in THIS game (at least currently), your actions can have repercussions. Remember that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeonidasSith Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 OP. I agree. Build a friends list and stick to it, unless absolutely necessary. You'll get a ninja every now and then, but as you add more and more people to your friends list, it will happen less. Let the ninjas ninja each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galbatorrix Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 How so? Or are you just throwing around insults due to lack of valid arguments? Yes, if you think you deserve it over someone else who's put in the same time and effort. Fixed. It's selfish, but it's less selfish than the guy who's making a big deal about how he's been slighted and how he was entitled to that loot. what lack of decency are you referring to? Ok.... you have an item with cunning. Cunning is the primary stat for smugglers and agents. Now, you're going to honestly tell me that if an item drops with cunning on it, which again is the primary stat for smugglers and agents, the whole group should get to need on that item? Really? I just don't get why this even needs to be explained to you over and over again. Passing on loot that is an upgrade for someone offering their time to help the group through the flashpoint is common courtesy. Sorry you don't agree (as will be everyone you run flashpoints with), but there's no reason to continue this argument. Have fun getting booted from groups constantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apetooman Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 My solution is to wait to see how everyone else rolls and adjust my strategy accordingly. Loot ninjas are as much a part of MMOs as leveling, RNG, and g chat spam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruuprect Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 if I am able to press NEED, then i'm allowed to do it /thread What r u 3 years old. Derp. There is no ethics left in the world of mmo's. When someone rolls on something simply because the need is there to be pushed, I kick them from the group and put them on ignore and let my server know not to play with this person. If I am not the leader I leave, as I am the healer that pretty much ruins thier run for the day as it is hard to find healers on my server. AND I let the server know who they r. This is usually appreciated by everyone as the instantly go on thier ignore list. Good luck finding groups with attitudes like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnijung Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 if I am able to press NEED, then i'm allowed to do it /thread This is exactly why design needs to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calsetes Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Ok.... you have an item with cunning. Cunning is the primary stat for smugglers and agents. Now, you're going to honestly tell me that if an item drops with cunning on it, which again is the primary stat for smugglers and agents, the whole group should get to need on that item? Really? I just don't get why this even needs to be explained to you over and over again. Passing on loot that is an upgrade for someone offering their time to help the group through the flashpoint is common courtesy. Sorry you don't agree (as will be everyone you run flashpoints with), but there's no reason to continue this argument. Have fun getting booted from groups constantly. Let's take another example. Moddable Trooper armor drops. It's low level, so nobody cares about it and everyone hits Greed. The Guardian, who wants to wear armor and not space monk robes, wants it really bad. He asks the group if he can need for it, and everyone says sure. He hits need, everyone wins. Now, take that same example, and remove everyone but Trooper's ability to roll Need. Everyone hits Greed, even the Trooper. The Guardian wants it, and everyone's fine with him getting it. How do they now pass after selecting greed already? They can't. The Guardian misses out on his armor he really wanted, someone in the group has armor they're only going to sell because it's already bound, and the overall mood is lessened for everyone. I really think limiting Need based on classes is a bad idea, even though it would take care of ninja looters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malpracticex Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 if I am able to press NEED, then i'm allowed to do it /thread spoken like a true 12 year old Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giondi Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 ...if anyone in that class is with your group. I can't believe I'm posting about item rolls, or about this issue. People worry too much about loot, and I'm a big believer in just enjoying the game. But poor claims hurt group dynamics, and there's no need for this kind of thing. Today, a Sith Marauder rolled Need to get this Cademimu Sharpshooter's Jacket +34 Endurance +38 Cunning +18 Critical Rating when I pointed out it was made for an Agent, like me, he said he intended to strip out the mods and trade them. When I noted that the mods are Bound, he insisted that since he could wear it, he could roll. More surprising was that when he brought the issue to /General, a few voices agreed. Most did not, but the others need to know that sort of claim i's a party-breaker. This is clearly an Agent item - a huge upgrade in my case - and my next group will get a little less healing as a result. One of the pleasures of running Flashpoints is the chance to get gear suited to you. If it's better suited to someone else, leave it for them. I had kind of the reverse happen to me. I ran Foundry on my Sorc and I Greed rolled on a Marauder piece and won. The Marauder we had in the party pitched a fit because he lost and demanded I give it to him. The other two people (thank God) sided with their healer in that this douche should have hit Need if he (derp) needed it. I moved the mods into Khem's gear and put the actual piece (with comm mods) on Ashara. Just hit Need if it's something you need for your character, and if you roll Greed, don't cry if you lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrTijger Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 This is exactly why design needs to change. The design needs to change because the players aren't able to behave like grownups....really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galbatorrix Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) Let's take another example. Moddable Trooper armor drops. It's low level, so nobody cares about it and everyone hits Greed. The Guardian, who wants to wear armor and not space monk robes, wants it really bad. He asks the group if he can need for it, and everyone says sure. He hits need, everyone wins. Now, take that same example, and remove everyone but Trooper's ability to roll Need. Everyone hits Greed, even the Trooper. The Guardian wants it, and everyone's fine with him getting it. How do they now pass after selecting greed already? They can't. The Guardian misses out on his armor he really wanted, someone in the group has armor they're only going to sell because it's already bound, and the overall mood is lessened for everyone. I really think limiting Need based on classes is a bad idea, even though it would take care of ninja looters. I agree with you, but at the same time, I'd MUCH rather never get anything that is for aesthetics purposes only than get upgrades stolen by someone that is needing for a + endurance mod. They should give a roll bonus to those that use the primary stat. This way, if a Trooper rolls need on AIM, he'll automatically win it (unless there's another trooper in the group) and at the same time, people needing for aesthetics/companions can also need and if the trooper passes/greeds, they have a chance at winning the item. Edited January 25, 2012 by Galbatorrix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanderica Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 This is exactly why design needs to change. I don't think the design needs to change at all. I dislike it when folks ninja gear, but thank god we have the ability to police our own servers here. People that do this will quickly change their ways or find themselves blacklisted from end-game PvE activities, especially raids. It's part of a strong community, and it's something I like about TOR compared to other games that have streamlined the grouping process so much that actions such as ninja looting have no consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memo_ Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Curious as to how many of the people that will need on whatever just because they can are in a guild? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calsetes Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I agree with you, but at the same time, I'd MUCH rather never get anything that is for aesthetics purposes only than get upgrades stolen by someone that is needing for a + endurance mod. They should give a roll bonus to those that use the primary stat. This way, if a Trooper rolls need on AIM, he'll automatically win it (unless there's another trooper in the group) and at the same time, people needing for aesthetics/companions can also need and if the trooper passes/greeds, they have a chance at winning the item. That works - a bonus for class on Need items. That way, if everyone hits Greed, and I roll Need as a Guardian, then either: A. I get the item, and the party warns me or kicks me for not checking with them first, or 2. I get the item, and everyone thanks me for checking with them first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnijung Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 The design needs to change because the players aren't able to behave like grownups....really? It is not about behaving like adults. Age has very little to do with how people behave. Before MMOs went mainstream, few select people were playing the game and they were playing because they enjoyed the genre. When the game went mainstream, we have players that do not care about the genre. They are playing MMOs because they are the next hot thing. Currently we can police ourselves, to an extent but nothing is forcing people to actually learn how MMOs function. How often do you see people saying "I am a solo player..." What? People play Massively Multiplayer Online game to play alone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thradar Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 It is not about behaving like adults. Age has very little to do with how people behave. Oh really? I'm no expert, but I would bet every paycheck every 2 weeks that there's a STRONG correlation between age and maturity (adult behavior). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 If I'm able to cut in front of you in a line at the supermarket, then I'm allowed to do it.That's not an analogous situation. The rules of the system do allow him to hit need. The rules of the system do not allow you to cut in front of people in line. This is speculative, you have no idea as to whether or not somebody is insulated to their clique.I find it kind of ironic that you're going to throw around the word speculative like that. Looting items only benefits the subset of that clique you play with where that particular piece of gear made the difference between success and failure in some particular fight... and whether that is a non-empty set is speculative. It doesn't really matter whether they're insulated to their clique or not. The only person that definitely benefits is the person that loots it. Worthless argument as, unless you're capable of seeing the future, you have no idea as to who will use things for the greatest quantity of time. Moreover, the window of usage is not the only variable that matters.It's a counter example showing a the flaw in that argument, and how arguing that X winning an item is best for the community is a worthless argument. I'm glad that you seem to agree. Until we have evidence of this occurring in this game, I regret that I'll regard this as invalid as it is speculation based on an entirely different paradigm.Different paradigm? It's exactly the same, hard mode dungeons, raids and hard mode raids. Maybe you're using paradigm in some sort of obscure meaning that I'm not familiar with? again, I'm showing examples of flaws in the "it helps the community" argument, and this clearly shows one of those flaws, and that whether it helps the community or not is indeterminate. What of the increased capacity to 'carry' those individuals and 'boost' them?This does not negate the fact that some people are negatively affected by it. The reductio ad absurdum is that nobody should ever progress because the disparities introduced by it, apparently, have no positive impact at all on the collective.No, reductio ad absurdum is that increasing a specific individual does not uniformly help the collective; the fact that I'm offering counter examples that are ever true shows how silly the notion that you getting loot helps the community is. This is a complete straw-man, not it isn't. you're contradicting yourself. (I read this in the style of the argument sketch) What would be an appropriate analogy? Perhaps that a group finds a hitherto unknown deposit of a substance that solely belongs to their group, their social dynamics mean that the person best qualified to maximise gain from that is given control of the deposit, and that person uses their control to benefit the group but also the community around them as a whole via their interactions with it (replace 'making group content easier' with 'spending the earning from that deposit in local businesses and charities' or such). Of course, any analogy is going to be weak because reality does have items popping spontaneously into existence.Bad analogy; you're incorporating circular reasoning here, equating "I can use the item" with "can spend the deposit in the way that is best for the community" You're also presupposing "can use all of the stats on the item at this moment" is equivalent to "best qualified to maximise gain from that is given control of the deposit" ... I've already pointed out that there are flaws here. One of them is the time factor that I pointed out above; so at best it might be equivelant to "best qualified to get the most immediate gain from that is given control of the deposit, but might not have the best long term gain, and it's totally indeterminate whether he gives the biggest long term enhancement to the community" ... but that doesn't roll off the tongue so well. And again the analogy doesn't include the possibility of negative impacts to the community. Speculative as per above post.No, there are clearly cases where the increase in gear to a person who buys it on the GTN is bigger than the person that won it. Since you made the speculative argument saying that someone gaining the item definitely brings more to the community, I'm simply showing "there exists" to counter the implied "for all" claim. So speculative is fine. No, it is irrational to presume that an ad hominem has impact on the overall validity of an argument and is a worthless rhetoric technique. That's not what I said... It's quite rational to point out that people who resort to ad hominem attacks make their own arguments look weak, even if they aren't making argument based on an ad hominem fallacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunwindIon Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 if I am able to press NEED, then i'm allowed to do it /thread massive idiot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightfox_ Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I'll be honest, this entire thread is pretty worthless. You've got people arguing two entirely different points. 1. Needing on mods that are an upgrade for yourself 2. Needing on gear vanity vs utility So I really don't expect anything useful to come out of this. Obviously the marauder felt pretty dumb upon realizing he couldn't trade the mods to anyone and tried to save face. Just don't group with him again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanhedgehog Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 ...if anyone in that class is with your group. I can't believe I'm posting about item rolls, or about this issue. People worry too much about loot, and I'm a big believer in just enjoying the game. But poor claims hurt group dynamics, and there's no need for this kind of thing. Today, a Sith Marauder rolled Need to get this Cademimu Sharpshooter's Jacket +34 Endurance +38 Cunning +18 Critical Rating when I pointed out it was made for an Agent, like me, he said he intended to strip out the mods and trade them. When I noted that the mods are Bound, he insisted that since he could wear it, he could roll. More surprising was that when he brought the issue to /General, a few voices agreed. Most did not, but the others need to know that sort of claim i's a party-breaker. This is clearly an Agent item - a huge upgrade in my case - and my next group will get a little less healing as a result. One of the pleasures of running Flashpoints is the chance to get gear suited to you. If it's better suited to someone else, leave it for them. they need to follow wow and allow you to trade the item to a member of the team that was present for the kill. I have clicked need by mistake on a guild run and could not give it to the BH. (I gave him a nice + aim purple I had instead, but I still felt bad) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) Ok.... you have an item with cunning. Cunning is the primary stat for smugglers and agents. Now, you're going to honestly tell me that if an item drops with cunning on it, which again is the primary stat for smugglers and agents, the whole group should get to need on that item? Really?I'm saying that no one in the group deserves the item any more than anyone else, and that anyone who makes a claim that they should get it over someone else is being selfish and greedy. Passing on loot that someone else wants who is offering their time to help the group through the flashpoint is common courtesy.fixed. Whether it's an upgrade or not is really irrelevant. Really, it comes down to If you feel entitled to items, you're being selfish and greedy.If you give up items that you want to other people you're being selfless. Whether it's "an upgrade" or not doesn't affect those 2 statements. Edited January 25, 2012 by ferroz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calsetes Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 How often do you see people saying "I am a solo player..." What? People play Massively Multiplayer Online game to play alone? I actually play alone most of the time, and I've played MMOs for a long time now. It's not that I don't want to play with other people, it's just that given the circumstances of my luck, and people needing me every thirty seconds out of game, it's a lot easier to only hold back myself than it is to hold back a whole group. Plus, I like testing myself first, and socializing with other people. Seriously, two days ago I ran a Flashpoint as the tank, and not a long one, either. At one point, a scream kind of said, "drop what you're doing and come quick." One of those kinds of screams. Another point, my PC glitched on me and I ran through the mobs into a wall while I had to alt-tab to fix the issue. My group did alright, but they wouldn't have struggled as much had I been there to actually play instead of fix a PC issue and check on someone who screamed bloody murder for no ******* reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) How often do you see people saying "I am a solo player..." What? People play Massively Multiplayer Online game to play alone?It's not like that's a modern sentiment. I mean, there was a huge amount of solo players in EQ. How many wizards and druids never spent any time quad kiting? How many rangers had never spent their time rooting and shooting? I'd say, especially from kunark through PoP, people soloed a lot... and i think PoP was the deal breaker because there was such a big spike in how hard stuff hit that most people stopped being able to solo effectively. Edited January 25, 2012 by ferroz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnijung Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Oh really? I'm no expert, but I would bet every paycheck every 2 weeks that there's a STRONG correlation between age and maturity (adult behavior). There could be a correlation because younger players have never played MMO for real... as in anything before Wrath WoW and actually enjoyed the experience. But at the same time there are plenty of people throwing out "I have a wife, kids, job, life, etc and i do not have the time for the game." I know people like that except a lot of them that do not have the time to play, they actually quit. They do not try to argue that the game needs to change. They know why they enjoyed it and they also know why they cannot enjoy it anymore. If the game was changed to cater to them when they do not have the time to play, they will not be playing the game they originally enjoyed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Curious as to how many of the people that will need on whatever just because they can are in a guild?I'm not sure "people" is correct... was there more than that one guy who said he did that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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