Xinika Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 This guy prolly isnt even this class. Someone who got pwned and is looking to try and fool people! Not on my watch. If anything OP's need a bufF!!!! Trolling? or Downs? ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revial Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I know that their three big attacks either ignore 100% armor Lol. I love nerf threads full of ignorant people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furiousferret Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I'm an Immortal Jugg, in ALL Champion gear (Apart from Centurion Belt and main hand weapon.) Valor 52. I take ~ 12% reduced damage in PVP b/c of expertise. 18000 health with the Stim. Since the game is only a month old, I would like to know a few answers. I have definitely felt the bite of a Smugg/IA. If my escape is on cooldown, I have been killed from full health in the one stun that has you laying on the ground in a 1v1 setting. I know that their three big attacks either ignore 100% of armor or are considered internal/poison damage. I am still learning. I know to escape and use my 40% reduced reduction on the initial stun if I'm knocked down, and try to then stun them to get away. Because it was under my impression that their next or 3rd attack has a prerequisit to have the person incapacitated in order for it to be usable. But is there anything else I can do? I dooooo feel as they are overpowered. Someone in the same type of pvp gear as me, in my opinion should not be able to 3-4 shot a 100% tank spec'd tank in pvp gear. But instead of having a majority of my post be complaining. I would like to learn how to counter it 1v1. Educate me! Thanks First off, our move that hits stunned targets (eviscerate) does not work on Elites or other players. That leaves our opener> backstab > shiv > lacerate > lacerate as our open rotation. Past that our damage signifigantly goes down until Shiv pops again in 6 secs... Use snares or stand with your back to the wall. As a Jugg, you cant really kite us so your best option is to survive the burst, counter, and dont give an Op your back, so you take away backstab (easier said than done). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dronp Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I think the class is still extremely strong since 1.1 in random pugs but one of the weaker classes now in group pvp. Try your burst against a battlemaster tank with guard or shielded sorc with guard and you won't get them below 70%. Beyond that the class doesnt really have much. Its pretty much sit back and wait to pick off stragglers and unshielded players. But I still 3 shot pugs with crap gear so I still see a nerf coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlowRage Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I would really like to add something to this discussion but I cannot even read your posts because of your horrible text color choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dietyz Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 If we lose our burst then we NEED a charge or pull since we are currently the easiest class to kite in the game by far, I find it funny that so many people want our burst nerfed AND our stun removed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aviyur Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 At 50. In equal gear an operative out of stealth just dies. If you lose to one and you both have the same lvl of gear you simply suck. Sorry but it's the truth. An Operative getting the ambush on you will hurt. And you are at a huge dissadvantage, which for all intents and purposes is how the class is supposed to work. Without some help you will probably lose. If you are prepared for an operative to ambush you its almost an equal footing fight, then class differences will come into play over who's the victor. Perhaps the burst opening requires some tuning. But not much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diomades Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Since the game is only a month old, I would like to know a few answers. I have definitely felt the bite of a Smugg/IA. If my escape is on cooldown, I have been killed from full health in the one stun that has you laying on the ground in a 1v1 setting. Simply not possible at 18000 health with 12% of the PvP stat. Unless the Scoundrel in question was stacking stims, there's simply no way they could kill you in three seconds. In my gear (10% of the PvP stat) I'd get maybe a 4K crit on my opener, 3K crit on my back blast, 2K Crit on Sucker Punch. And by then, you'd be on your feet. And that's assuming I get VERY lucky and get 3 crits in a row. Otherwise it'd be 2K, 1.5K, 1K. Of course, I'm just ballparking here. I know that their three big attacks either ignore 100% of armor or are considered internal/poison damage. None of our attacks ignore armor. Flechette Round reduces armor by 50% for a few seconds, and the bleed is unmitigated damage for around 1.5K or so. That's about it as far as armor ignoring goes, save for our other bleed. I BELIEVE that ignores armor, but it doesn't say so on the tooltip. I am still learning. I know to escape and use my 40% reduced reduction on the initial stun if I'm knocked down, and try to then stun them to get away. Because it was under my impression that their next or 3rd attack has a prerequisit to have the person incapacitated in order for it to be usable. We don't have any attacks usable in PvP that require the target be incapacitated. I don't pretend to be an expert on Scoundrel or Operative, but what you're saying happened to you simply doesn't seem at all possible if you are using your cooldowns and defences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintersnight Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I'm an Immortal Jugg, in ALL Champion gear (Apart from Centurion Belt and main hand weapon.) Valor 52. I take ~ 12% reduced damage in PVP b/c of expertise. 18000 health with the Stim. Since the game is only a month old, I would like to know a few answers. I have definitely felt the bite of a Smugg/IA. If my escape is on cooldown, I have been killed from full health in the one stun that has you laying on the ground in a 1v1 setting. I know that their three big attacks either ignore 100% of armor or are considered internal/poison damage. I am still learning. I know to escape and use my 40% reduced reduction on the initial stun if I'm knocked down, and try to then stun them to get away. Because it was under my impression that their next or 3rd attack has a prerequisit to have the person incapacitated in order for it to be usable. But is there anything else I can do? I dooooo feel as they are overpowered. Someone in the same type of pvp gear as me, in my opinion should not be able to 3-4 shot a 100% tank spec'd tank in pvp gear. But instead of having a majority of my post be complaining. I would like to learn how to counter it 1v1. Educate me! Thanks If an Operative can take a tank spec down in pvp gear in 3-4 shots....the issue is not the Operative....it's the tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vube Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 @revival : As I said, I don't know how the class works exactly. So my appologies. But taking my quote out of context is pretty cool. Acid Blade reduces armor by 50% and adds a good poison dot thats poison/internal. My mistake. Doing some research, laceration, backstab, and shiv are all kinetic energy. So they 100% avoid armor. @furiousferret : Thanks for the information and the damage rotation. The opener I assume you use is... Hidden Strike? That sounds like a WoW ambush. What's the opener stun called? How many other stuns do you have? It sounds like my best option vs the OP would be to try to intercede to a friendly player or force jump to some squishy target, and as you said, try not to give them my back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belialle Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) I've been playing a healing spec for the last 10 levels or so, so my opinion might be worthless. I wouldn't mind having our opening burst toned down (if BW's internal metrics show that there is actually an imbalance), providing that they do something to help with our sustained damage so that we don't become free kills to every class. I'm not fully convinced that concealment ops are imbalanced yet. Unless they catch me with my pants down, they don't give me such a hard time that I feel like I have no way to survive them. It's possible that it could have something to do with the fact that I've played that spec a bit and know a little better what to expect from them. Also, I'd just like to point out that the fact that you and a friend were able to take down a couple of higher level players doesn't indicate an imbalance. For all you know, those players were far less experienced than you. Experienced players have been taking out higher level newbs for a long, long time. Edited January 21, 2012 by belialle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vube Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) @wintersnight : Ask around on my server. I would argue that I could be the best tank spec'd PVP tank on my server. If a scoundrel/operative is attacking anyone OTHER than me. It's very easy to crush their DPS by guarding their target, interceding and or taunting the person to nullify damage. I'm just trying to figure out all their skills for when they are attacking me. Edited January 21, 2012 by Vube Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toranna Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 1. you're not an operative but nice try 2. they are designed to be a top 1vs1 burst dmg class, and they do that well, but the game is not about 1vs1, only wow kids think it is 3. any reductions to damage to the class will render it obsolete, because then you will have an assassin/shadow, a medium dps stealth class, but without the sustainability of the assassin/shadow (ie a gimped class) Guess what you have F-ing heals. No healing class should ever be top DPS class also. The fix for this class is easy. Remove the CC from the stealth opener and give them a new knock down ability, also nerf their healing by 20-25%. BTW i think the same thing should happen to Sorcs/Sages but other way, reduce their dmg by 20-25% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkeGBF Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 If you reduce the burst, you need to massively increase the sustained. Right now it's barely viable in PvE, and not very good in PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vube Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 but what you're saying happened to you simply doesn't seem at all possible if you are using your cooldowns and defences. Right. I said this happens if my escape ability is down. If it isn't I'll escape, pop 40% damage reduction and a stun in before they restun me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belialle Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) Guess what you have F-ing heals. No healing class should ever be top DPS class also. The fix for this class is easy. Remove the CC from the stealth opener and give them a new knock down ability, also nerf their healing by 20-25%. BTW i think the same thing should happen to Sorcs/Sages but other way, reduce their dmg by 20-25% Yeah? When is the last time you saw an operative topping damage and healing done in the same WZ? I would think that this is something that would only happen if the rest of the team is very, very bad -- or if the DPS op gets top heals by default because there are no other healers. Your ignorance is showing. Sorcerers, on the other hand, are able to top damage and healing done fairly routinely. Edited January 21, 2012 by belialle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prochuvi Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) OP are overpower who cant see it is because he is blind or he is playing one. warhammer had the same problem with brightwizard and they were nerfed after they lost 80 % of their playerbase,i am seeing that bioware is doing the same error here as every true pvper have left it allready when u need one heal and one tank to take down to only one pople we have a problem Edited January 21, 2012 by prochuvi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diomades Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) Right. I said this happens if my escape ability is down. If it isn't I'll escape, pop 40% damage reduction and a stun in before they restun me. If they are killing you in 3 seconds flat (the length of that knockdown, which, to answer your earlier question, is attached to the opener via talents) there is something VERY wrong, because that damage is just INSANE. Is this happening to you consistently? The thing to remember is that Shoot First will max out your CC resistance, so popping escape on it IS a good idea (you get all that time to totally screw over the Scoundrel), but there is no way you should be dying that fast in the PvP gear you have, no way in hell. I will only go for a tank when they are guarding others, and I'll be lucky (LUCKY) to take their health down to half after my opening attack. I'd say more consistently I take a Jugg in the gear you've got with the stats you have down a quarter of their health - not ALL the way. It sounds to me like you're dealing with a lot of Scoundrels abusing Biochem, honestly. Edited January 21, 2012 by Diomades Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vube Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 i am seeing that byoware is doing the same error here as every true pvper have left it allready when u need one heal and one tank to take down to only one pople we have a problem I am doubtful that the true PVPer, as you said, have quit because they are OMG OP ARE SO OP! THEY WILL NEVER BE FIXED!! The true PVPer will stick it out and keep playing. The casual is the one who quits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belialle Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 byoware /boggle OK, I feel a little dirty for pointing it out, but this word is spelled correctly for you at the bottom of every page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sathid Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Yah know seeing things from my perspective and the way sorcs can bubble and the huge healing done by the inquis's id say Op/Scoundrels need a boost tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vube Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 If they are killing you in 3 seconds flat (the length of that knockdown, which, to answer your earlier question, is attached to the opener via talents) there is something VERY wrong, because that damage is just INSANE. Is this happening to you consistently? It sounds to me like you're dealing with a lot of Scoundrels abusing Biochem, honestly. The biochem/PVP buff could be in play here. Below geared smuggs/ia's can't do this to me. But of equal or greater gear they can. As I had said earlier, the Acid Blade dot is not negated by armor. The backstab, shiv and the adrenal using DPS skill (blanking on name) are all kinetic. So it's only a 10% negation. Armor is honestly only good VS warriors and people using their "1" ability they are given at level 1. White damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toranna Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Yeah? When is the last time you saw an operative topping damage and healing done in the same WZ? I would think that this is something that would only happen if the rest of the team is very, very bad -- or if the DPS op gets top heals by default because there are no other healers. Your ignorance is showing. Sorcerers, on the other hand, are able to top damage and healing done fairly routinely. I dont watch Leader boards much because they are scewed. I have been killed by a Battlemaster Op on My Kinetic Shadow in 5-6 seconds (hard to be certain because of no combat log and timestamps.) FYI lag causes that knock down to last longer than the 2-4 seconds it is suppose to. next time i caught her out of stealth and kept him dotted and in front but could not kill him because I would get CCed or just ignored and she would just out heal my damage, until their vanish ability was up and she preceded to wipe the floor with me. Now I don't spect to be ablet o kill a well geared healer 1v1 as a Tank Shadow but i also dont expect to go grom 15k to 0 in under 6 seconds from one, because well played and geared OPS are able to absolutly obilterate ppl. BTW I know this was with the BIOCHEM exploit but she still does 5-6k openers followed by another 4-5k dmg before the knockdown wears off, and for most people that means you are near dead. Also people who say that they are a solo class and no use to groups are pretty moronic or jsut plain dump, because extreame burst classes make groups succesful, because they can preasurre multiple healer to keep a single target up. Again I only thing a re-balance is needed not a nerf. 1) Remove the knock down from the Dmg Opener and give them another opener for CC. 2) Decrease Healing ability or Dmg Ability. Easiest way to accomplish this is to require certain buffs/stances to do things and make those buff/stances have bonuses and subtractions. Think Mara/SW from War. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madwooki Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 To the OP: your not even level 50 yet as an operative? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xinika Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 If we lose our burst then we NEED a charge or pull since we are currently the easiest class to kite in the game by far, I find it funny that so many people want our burst nerfed AND our stun removed No, lol. Nice try though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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