Fantastix Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) basicly in a mmo the skill is based on decent reaction time/clever usage of cooldowns/countermeasures against enemy cooldowns/positioning..... to me all those except the last are pretty much negated by gear in this game it seems... yes people may think wow pvp sucks!, maybe it does, but still you could own ppl, while beeing heavily undergeared.. i ve played all wow classes at max lvl and yes , the skillcap of those chars are on a diffrent lvl (for me a warrior/dk were far far easier to play than a mage for example) for example you could ve frost novaed a rogues vanish... or as rogue vanished the deepfreeze of a mage.. or outjumped the fear of a priest...etc..etc... i m missing those kind of skill related stuff in this game... all i see is skill spamming while beeing geared and pwning green geared boys... also INTERRUPT mechanics to me seems pretty much useless against healer... heal 1, interuppt np, just use heal 2... of course the cast animation delay "bug" or feature has a lot to do with this.. but still, the skills in this game are imo designed for spamming, rather than clever usage... what d you guys think? Edited January 20, 2012 by Fantastix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jestunhi Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Clearly both effect it. In order for it to be only skill then all progression would have to be removed so every character was equal. If I wanted that I'd be playing Counter Strike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiricahua Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Put it this way. When a player has great gear, and a lot of skill too, they are invisible. Most players who have pvp constantly all the way to 50 have significant skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantastix Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 Clearly both effect it. In order for it to be only skill then all progression would have to be removed so every character was equal. If I wanted that I'd be playing Counter Strike. believe me or not, in wow you were able to own far far better geared people with greens/blues....if they suck / or are mediocre players.. no just because i took wow as comparison doesnt mean wow roxx and qqqq and i m going back whatever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jestunhi Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 believe me or not, in wow you were able to own far far better geared people with greens/blues....if they suck / or are mediocre players.. no just because i took wow as comparison doesnt mean wow roxx and qqqq and i m going back whatever And, possibly barring the people with the most expertise, I'd say that's the case here too. I was beating 50's on my powertech when he was 20 because they didn't have hundreds and hundreds of expertise yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
--Grim-- Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) Gear PvP sucks, always has sucked and always will suck. But that's what SWTOR is. The SWTOR PvP Dev team is the same bunch that has been designing this exact same system for all the other failed 2 faction, gear based mmo's. They didn't change anything for SWTOR, except the graphics. SWTOR's PvP will always suck because of the basic design and the failed PvP philosophy of the Dev team. GUILD WARS (and hopefully GW2) is the only modern mmo that features skill over gear. Everyone's gear stats (and class abilities) are the same in GW PvP, and has no factor in your success or failure. GW is also the most succesful mmo other than WoW in terms of boxes sold. And most PvP'rs consider it to be the best PvP mmo, along with DAOC. Edited January 20, 2012 by --Grim-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtmaTheWanderer Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 In MMOs gear is almost always more important than skill. It is the carrot on a stick to keep people paying. Wow pvp was almost entirely gear driven as well, skill could make up for a SMALL gap, but not a large one, unless the person was terribad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeonkRAV Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 basicly in a mmo the skill is based on decent reaction time/clever usage of cooldowns/countermeasures against enemy cooldowns/positioning..... to me all those except the last are pretty much negated by gear in this game it seems... yes people may think wow pvp sucks!, maybe it does, but still you could own ppl, while beeing heavily undergeared.. i ve played all wow classes at max lvl and yes , the skillcap of those chars are on a diffrent lvl (for me a warrior/dk were far far easier to play than a mage for example) for example you could ve frost novaed a rogues vanish... or as rogue vanished the deepfreeze of a mage.. or outjumped the fear of a priest...etc..etc... i m missing those kind of skill related stuff in this game... all i see is skill spamming while beeing geared and pwning green geared boys... also INTERRUPT mechanics to me seems pretty much useless against healer... heal 1, interuppt np, just use heal 2... of course the cast animation delay "bug" or feature has a lot to do with this.. but still, the skills in this game are imo designed for spamming, rather than clever usage... what d you guys think? Not true, this game can be very skill base. but everyone depends on gear rather then skill then its irrelevant. 2 people of equal skill fight it comes down to gear and chance. 2 people of equal gear comes down to skill and chance. the complexity of this is large t otry to put into words. Sometimes gear can outmatch skill. And anyway, this is an mmo, GEAR will always be a priority else... no one would pvp. MMO is always give and take, nobody does things simply for the "fun" of it. they always need gain, hence why the mmorpg community is so exploitative and selfish. If gear didnt give your some credentials then people wouldn't do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamanous Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) It is the nature of the beast. The only way around it is to have equally matched pvp gear sets you must wear to pvp (perhaps a separate character tab so the gear is already on you and is what is taken into account in any pvp encounter ... not pve gear). Diff sets for diff builds and only main difference being looks you can unlock. For now there is some skill applied but gear makes the huge difference. In the first 3 weeks of the game I could enter warzones and compete easily against the early 50's. As days went on this became harder and harder until so many were so well geared that no matter what I did I still died in 3-5 hits. After last patch I now enter (I stopped leveling at 46 to play alts and not hit end game allowing friends to catch up) warzones with my current level blue slotted gear and once again dominate nearly any of player I come across. Well geared 40+ are the new 50's now (but at least lower levels in blues and purples now scale much better and can compete). Gear is god in this game. Has anyone else noticed the dramatic drop in vids showing noob pwnage in warzones? I certainly have. Same level, same geared combat suddenly hurts players ego's enough to stop showing off. The epeen players suddenly can't dominate as they once did and have crawled back into their caves. Personally I cannot stand pvp where the enemy has no chance to kill me. I can only enjoy it if knowing my own skill is what is keeping me alive. The way the game is now forces me to grind out as much as I can pre-50, buy what I can and my one bag and then rush grind the pvp gear once I hit 50. There is no casual "oh I'd like to play pvp on a whim!" pvp in this game. Bioware set it up just like World of Failcraft did and force the grind upon players just to compete at a percentage of competency of better geared players due to pvp stats. Skill would be great in this sort of game but developers seem to do nothing to preserve it. Gear race is a pve mechanic that seems to be ported over to pvp in nearly all mmo's. That is entirely backward thinking. Pvp is an e-sport no matter how you look at it at any scale. Sports need balance and standards so skill can shine. Edited January 20, 2012 by Tamanous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nimuniverse Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Nope, it's all about player. I took on a lvl 50 empire when I was lvl 32. I died but I got him down to 5% of his health. I haven't lost 1v1 fight against lvl 50 empire when I got to lvl 50 as smuggler and I didn't have pvp gear on. After I got a few champion pieces I can take on 2v1 against empire's lvl 50. The only lvl 50 I cannot beat is a jedi consular, my friend Timmay, he is top republic pvp player for my server. Thank god, most of the time in huttball it's against empire and it's not republic vs republic (pre patch, post patch has no more pvp). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmiekros Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) believe me or not, in wow you were able to own far far better geared people with greens/blues....if they suck / or are mediocre players.. no just because i took wow as comparison doesnt mean wow roxx and qqqq and i m going back whatever Your original conclusion that this is a gear based PvP game is correct, and I agree this doesn't make for good competition skill vs skill. Your example though is subjective and inaccurate. Edited January 20, 2012 by kimmiekros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantastix Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 nonono are you ppl really counting this as skill when you force choke a dude that is walking over the fire space in huttball? or when you stun someone? or when a juggernaut force leaps into a new spawned dude with the ball? i call these kind of things medium skill what i m talking about is high lvl skill... those stuffs are missing in this game.. when you know exactly when and what the enemy is going to do.. because you have basicly forced him to that point... for example if you see a sorc walking towards you... as a sniper you ll use your cc immunity... to **** his knockback... those kind of stuff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
--Grim-- Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) nonono are you ppl really counting this as skill when you force choke a dude that is walking over the fire space in huttball? or when you stun someone? or when a juggernaut force leaps into a new spawned dude with the ball? i call these kind of things medium skill what i m talking about is high lvl skill... those stuffs are missing in this game.. when you know exactly when and what the enemy is going to do.. because you have basicly forced him to that point... for example if you see a sorc walking towards you... as a sniper you ll use your cc immunity... to **** his knockback... those kind of stuff... Every player has different skill levels, but in a gear based game like SWTOR the skill levels are trumped by gear in many cases. Which makes makes PvP systems like SWTOR's ultimately pointless and boring. If you want to play true skill based PvP in an mmo, then you will never find it here. The game isn't designed for it and the current Devs don't have the talent to create it. Edited January 20, 2012 by --Grim-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nimuniverse Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 As smuggler, I go into stealth mode. I do fletchette round, do first shot (i might tranquilize if it's 2v1) Empire fall down, I do fletchette round, backblast. At that point they can put their free from limiting movement skill or not. Then they get up. I put on my dodge (if they are caster, I put on my defense screen as well). They can run, stun me, or just plain attack me. If they stun, I cancel by using my free movement skill. I put hammstring if they have equivalent to force speed thing. Same time I put on my dot spell (if they are another stealther, then dot will give away). I put triage on me if they got dot on me. I also interrupt if they are casting spell. Then I see their white bar disappears, meaning I can stun them. If I have disappearing act, I pop it. Do fletchette round and do first shot, followed by flet. and backblast. They die. If not I kick them, do flet round backblast followed by 2 suckerpunch. They die. If it's 2v1, I flash gernade them to stop the 2nd one temporarily. Then fight. If it's 3v1, I use medpac somewhere beween and heal myself a bit. I can take on 3v1 lvl 50 easy even if they all chain force choke me. It requires you to know what skill you have and when to use. Not really about gear. Gear helps but still it's all player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nimuniverse Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 To sum it up, I have been killing empire lvl 50s with their champ gear in my lvl 40 gear as lvl 50 before I got my champion gear. You just have to know what to do, what to expect from the other person and adjust your skills based on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantastix Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 To sum it up, I have been killing empire lvl 50s with their champ gear in my lvl 40 gear as lvl 50 before I got my champion gear. You just have to know what to do, what to expect from the other person and adjust your skills based on it. sry dont take it personal, maybe you are a good player, but you do realize that the class balance in this game is broken atm? =) without stating which class is op now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alwaysthirsty Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 If you were mildly skilled, you would be well geared by now. They compliment each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantastix Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 i m fully champion geared =), i dont wanna talk about class balance or whatever in this topic... it was just a side note Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drakkyn Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 GW is also the most succesful mmo other than WoW in terms of boxes sold. And most PvP'rs consider it to be the best PvP mmo, along with DAOC. GW was great, but I think you meant to say ShadowBane, not DAoC. It was a skill based game that had the had little dependence on gear and PVE. In fact, the few PVE that there was existed only to get your levels raised quicker . City building and city sieges were awesome and I am so surprised that no one has tried to replicate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super-Nova Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 you are not alone OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laslaya Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I'm seeing level 12 ranged classes going into WZs and laying out 200k+ damage with alot of kills. Besides powertechs, melee classes in general are pretty crap in this game. WoW was a far more melee friendly game since every caster didn't have tons of CCs, damage higher than the melee class AND heals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubage Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 If you were mildly skilled, you would be well geared by now. They compliment each other. I agree. PvP stats or no, there will always be gear factor that will increase ones survivability over people with lesser gear in this type of game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Preachir Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) Thats the problem with threads and ideas like this, the only problem i have encountered is the typical pug vs premade debacle. But as to skill versus gear, i have seen both ends of the spectrum and die and won versus both, i have seen a really bad player have the best gear and destroyed him. then i have seen someone with **** gear rip me apart and left me thinking *** did i do wrong in that fight. To think that gear doesnt make a good player better is naive. But in the same regard blaming someone elses gear level because your crap also wont fly, i find sw:tor to actually have a good balance of needing both. Especially in the rock/paper/scissors model. Edited January 20, 2012 by Preachir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cameirus Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 yep, asme problem as RIFT post 50 pvp, its gear v gear. Its kind of arse backwards really, you get more skilled so the game gives you gear to make it easier? to me tha just makes it more boring. Its like a reverse handicap, elevating the more experienced by giving them an advantage, and making it harder for the newbies to compete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
--Grim-- Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) yep, asme problem as RIFT post 50 pvp, its gear v gear. Its kind of arse backwards really, you get more skilled so the game gives you gear to make it easier? to me tha just makes it more boring. Its like a reverse handicap, elevating the more experienced by giving them an advantage, and making it harder for the newbies to compete. Yep, it really is a self defeating design. I never understood why the Devs' always create this same stupidity over and over. It pushes new players out and ultimately becomes a niche area of the game that few will play. Really, really stupid desing philosophy. Mmo devs are lemmings basically, they don't have any original ideas, they just follow the last failure off the cliff. Edited January 20, 2012 by --Grim-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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