lord-durpp Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I say that they make afew of the new fps easier to do with just a companion ( or a few ), because i sometimes have trouble finding groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inarai Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 That's your choice. You are the one choosing not to access the content. No one, not game design, is preventing you from experiencing that content except you. The very name of the genre stands for Multiplayer not solo player. If you can not deal with that then sorry this entire Genre is not for you. Multiplayer and Group are not the same thing. By simply participating in the game world, you're part of the multiplayer experience. Solo content doesn't take that away - and can actually be made to encourage it. Setting Flashpoints to be accessible with several companions is the wrong solution, but the lack of quality, progressive content for solo players is a problem that should be addressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoxiousAlby Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share Posted February 15, 2012 Multiplayer and Group are not the same thing. By simply participating in the game world, you're part of the multiplayer experience. Solo content doesn't take that away - and can actually be made to encourage it. Setting Flashpoints to be accessible with several companions is the wrong solution, but the lack of quality, progressive content for solo players is a problem that should be addressed. Inarai, BW have said they are already releasing more class quest lines in a future patch in March I believe. What worries me is that this content wont last longer than a few hours to days, considering the amount of time that it takes to script & VO this content class quests beyond level 50 hardly seems worth the effort. However something similar to flashpoints you could run solo with 3 companions is something you could cut your teeth on for months providing solo players with the grind vs reward we are after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inarai Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Inarai, BW have said they are already releasing more class quest lines in a future patch in March I believe. What worries me is that this content wont last longer than a few hours to days, considering the amount of time that it takes to script & VO this content class quests beyond level 50 hardly seems worth the effort. However something similar to flashpoints you could run solo with 3 companions is something you could cut your teeth on for months providing solo players with the grind vs reward we are after. Grind isn't what we're after, it's challenge. Good, quality, challenging content. As opposed to smashing your head against the brick wall of content that the AI is absolutely not up for. Mechanics like the Living Fire on Athiss or the missile thrusters in Cademimu would destroy your companions. It wouldn't be doable. But enabling three companions+player would suggest it should work. It's not quality content. IT's not a good challenge. It is not something that would actually be an enjoyable experience past the Esseles/Black Talon - the AI would get trashed in anything else. This is the wrong solution. The problem needs solving, but this doesn't solve it and in fact just introduces new problems. And they could easily make that content last a lot longer, just FYI, if they want it to.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarian Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 It's not quality content. So make whatever changes are needed to bring up the quality. Anyway, I'd be willing to accept that content originally designed for multiplayer might not make for a totally optimized single player experience. But for me, it would be better than nothing. And, I'm not especially interested in challenging encounters or whatever. I'm in it for the setting, art, story, vocal performances, etc. Having said that: If they can churn out quality dedicated solo content as fast as I can consume it, sure, I'll stay subbed. But can they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoxiousAlby Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share Posted February 15, 2012 Grind isn't what we're after, it's challenge. Good, quality, challenging content. As opposed to smashing your head against the brick wall of content that the AI is absolutely not up for. Mechanics like the Living Fire on Athiss or the missile thrusters in Cademimu would destroy your companions. It wouldn't be doable. But enabling three companions+player would suggest it should work. It's not quality content. IT's not a good challenge. It is not something that would actually be an enjoyable experience past the Esseles/Black Talon - the AI would get trashed in anything else. This is the wrong solution. The problem needs solving, but this doesn't solve it and in fact just introduces new problems. And they could easily make that content last a lot longer, just FYI, if they want it to.. Not sure if challenge is what this thread is about, on my sorceror currently lvl28 I have soloed all 2 & 4 man heroics thus far in the game. Yes they were a challenge & difficult but you out level the content so fast there is no reason to go back. Also my Marauder & trooper would have no hope in hell of emmulating the success my sorcerer has had. So what is challenging for one class is impossible for another. This thread is more about content we can do that will keep solo players busy for 3-6 months between patches. I dont believe that additional story line quests are the answer, for me personally I will be suprised if they last longer than a few days. Whereas solo flashpoints utilising scripts already created for group flashpoints but with modified boss mechanics (the only real changes that need to be made) would keep me busy for months. I dont see myself playing beyond April if something like this isnt added, by then I will have completed all the story lines that I want to. There needs to be something that will keep me coming back in between patches & please dont say repeatable daily quests, firelands nearly made me pull my hair out due to boredom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoxiousAlby Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) Someone linked me a wonderfull post form Gordon Walton, co-studio director at BW Lesson Four One thing that WoW is frequently recognized for is its solo play. Walton's fourth lesson was: support this, because gamers want it. According to Walton, older games that forced players into groups missed the point: "[the] truth is that people soloed every game to the best they could and when they couldn't anymore, they quit. Embracing solo play that was a true innovation for WoW." It was pointed out that players who hit the level cap are pretty much forced to group in WOW; Walton still felt like the game "feels like it's a level playing field for all people at that level" and thus isn't quite as sinful as it could be. He offered a Blizzard quote on the solo issue -- "We look at soloing as our casual game." Given the weight of the phrase "casual game" in 2007, you can bet the audience was scribbling that one down If BW truly believe this why is there no end game pve content for solo players at 50? For those wishing to read the entire interview here's the link http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=15386 Edited February 15, 2012 by NoxiousAlby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enkhrypthor Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Global Agenda have something similar. i like it a lot, since sometimes you have a hard time finding groups to do the flashpoint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inarai Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 So make whatever changes are needed to bring up the quality. Anyway, I'd be willing to accept that content originally designed for multiplayer might not make for a totally optimized single player experience. But for me, it would be better than nothing. My argument is that it's a better to allocate those resources to unique solo content. The game's better off that way for a number of reasons. - Doesn't harm the ability of Flashpoints to encourage grouping - Has more content - Has an additional path of progression, likely using Presence heavy gear - Overall creates a deeper, richer product Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inarai Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) Not sure if challenge is what this thread is about, on my sorceror currently lvl28 I have soloed all 2 & 4 man heroics thus far in the game. Yes they were a challenge & difficult but you out level the content so fast there is no reason to go back. Also my Marauder & trooper would have no hope in hell of emmulating the success my sorcerer has had. So what is challenging for one class is impossible for another. This thread is more about content we can do that will keep solo players busy for 3-6 months between patches. I dont believe that additional story line quests are the answer, for me personally I will be suprised if they last longer than a few days. Whereas solo flashpoints utilising scripts already created for group flashpoints but with modified boss mechanics (the only real changes that need to be made) would keep me busy for months. I dont see myself playing beyond April if something like this isnt added, by then I will have completed all the story lines that I want to. There needs to be something that will keep me coming back in between patches & please dont say repeatable daily quests, firelands nearly made me pull my hair out due to boredom. I suppose the fact that you can't repeat it has some weight, but it can certainly be made to take some serious time. Further, none of this changes the fact that trying to open up the Flashpoints would absolutely be the wrong way to do it. We're not arguing about whether the problem should be solved, but rather about HOW the problem should be solved. And I'm certainly not talking about any sort of pointless dailies or similar, but actual compelling content. Whatever you're thinking would hold your attention in self-group enabled Flashpoints would be more effective by far if done in content that was designed from the ground up as solo content. And I've got news for you: Challenge is part and parcel to holding people's attention. Edited February 15, 2012 by Inarai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoxiousAlby Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share Posted February 15, 2012 My argument is that it's a better to allocate those resources to unique solo content. The game's better off that way for a number of reasons. - Doesn't harm the ability of Flashpoints to encourage grouping - Has more content - Has an additional path of progression, likely using Presence heavy gear - Overall creates a deeper, richer product Problem is it wont last, I can look at myself and the rate at which I have leveled characters and consumed content to realise additional class quests will not get some players continueing to pay the bills. There needs to be a challenging grind like FP's. If your worried that the majority of players would prefer to grind FP's solo rather than group i'd say it shouldnt be a concern. 1) Players who group will only run solo FP's to gear companions or when friends/guildies are offline 2) More importantly once some players have run it solo they may feel more comfortable doing the group content for gear upgrades. Dont forget I believe there are a number of players who worry about making mistakes, and we all know that players tend to be unforgiving. If one such player completes a FP in solo mode they may even be more inclined to join grouped FP. Without first having done it solo they will never do it with others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inarai Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Problem is it wont last, I can look at myself and the rate at which I have leveled characters and consumed content to realise additional class quests will not get some players continueing to pay the bills. There needs to be a challenging grind like FP's. Which is part of what I'm suggesting be accomplished with new, dedicated content designed from the ground up for solo players. It's just the flat out more effective way to accomplish the goal. How many times do I need to say this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoxiousAlby Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share Posted February 15, 2012 Which is part of what I'm suggesting be accomplished with new, dedicated content designed from the ground up for solo players. It's just the flat out more effective way to accomplish the goal. How many times do I need to say this? Be specific about the content your talking about would help, if your talking about quests as i've said before it wouldnt work. Also you'll notice the thread refers to 3 companions, this is to give us something we can actively do with our companions. We have 6 of them and only ever use 1 What could we do with 1 player and 3 companions? I know Flashpoints Now whats a smarter use of resources? using resources allocated for future group content to make solo content? no that wont wash. How about using existing scripts for current FP's that only require loot & boss mechanics to be changed? Yep that works. You talk about an effective way to provide pve content for solo play, well i've already done that. You may not like the idea of solo players getting to experience group content, so i say meh. The majority of posters in this thread like the idea very much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inarai Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Be specific about the content your talking about would help, if your talking about quests as i've said before it wouldnt work. Also you'll notice the thread refers to 3 companions, this is to give us something we can actively do with our companions. We have 6 of them and only ever use 1 What could we do with 1 player and 3 companions? I know Flashpoints Now whats a smarter use of resources? using resources allocated for future group content to make solo content? no that wont wash. How about using existing scripts for current FP's that only require loot & boss mechanics to be changed? Yep that works. You talk about an effective way to provide pve content for solo play, well i've already done that. You may not like the idea of solo players getting to experience group content, so i say meh. The majority of posters in this thread like the idea very much First, I'm talking about Flashpoint-level content designed from the ground up for solo play. Not complicated, and I've said it any times in the thread. Second, I've explained previously that the AI wouldn't be up to the mechanics - this game doesn't ahve the systems of, say, DA:O that make something like that work. 3 companions is right out for effective, challenging content without substantial additional development. Changing the FP's around doesn't actually work - it causes brand new problems that you're trying to pretend can just be waived off by listing potential minor mitigating factors, but it doesn't work that way. You've talked about an ineffective method. And guess what: those resources you're talking about aren't allocated to perpetuity. They have the tasks they're on now, and when they're no longer needed there they'll rotate out to something else. That something else might be on a queue already based on priority, but there's no reason this can't be slotted into the priority system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoxiousAlby Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) First, I'm talking about Flashpoint-level content designed from the ground up for solo play. Not complicated, and I've said it any times in the thread. Second, I've explained previously that the AI wouldn't be up to the mechanics - this game doesn't ahve the systems of, say, DA:O that make something like that work. 3 companions is right out for effective, challenging content without substantial additional development. Changing the FP's around doesn't actually work - it causes brand new problems that you're trying to pretend can just be waived off by listing potential minor mitigating factors, but it doesn't work that way. You've talked about an ineffective method. And guess what: those resources you're talking about aren't allocated to perpetuity. They have the tasks they're on now, and when they're no longer needed there they'll rotate out to something else. That something else might be on a queue already based on priority, but there's no reason this can't be slotted into the priority system. Got to be realistic, even I doubt this will ever happen. Yes it would be nice but honestly given the time it takes to create and script a flashpoint from scratch, first doing it for the solo players and then the group players & finally the Operation players. I cant see it, thats a heck of alot of new content every 3-6 months. What i'm actually asking for is possible and can be done effectively with minimal resources and time. Your right the Ai of the companions would not be upto the mechanics which is why I have said multiple times the loot and boss mechanics would need to be adjusted, but at least the scripting for the scenery is already there. Nice idea and great if they did it but i honestly cant see it happening. In all honesty i'm losing faith that we will get anything other than quest lines at this stage. They will be completed within days or hours and will be rather pointless progression wise as your already 50. Edited February 15, 2012 by NoxiousAlby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asazi Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Gotta say, I really like this idea. My main is level 47 and the only flashpoints I've seen so far are Esseles/Black Talon due to time constraints and my friends not being the same level as I am. I know it's supposed to be massively multiplayer, but most of the time I just can't stand other people, always need rolling for their companions, wanting to skip the cutscenes, or just generally being obnoxious (don't you just love anonymity?). I see too much of this kind of behavior when I group for heroics. I've missed a large part of this game and I'd love to see it. This probably wouldn't / shouldn't be feasible for HM flashpoints which require more coordination and intelligence than your typical AI companion can provide, and that's fine, but it would really give casual players like me a nice way to see the story without having to deal with jerks from pugs. Probably never happen, but it'd be great if it did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inarai Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Got to be realistic, even I doubt this will ever happen. Yes it would be nice but honestly given the time it takes to create and script a flashpoint from scratch, first doing it for the solo players and then the group players & finally the Operation players. I cant see it, thats a heck of alot of new content every 3-6 months. What i'm actually asking for is possible and can be done effectively with minimal resources and time. Your right the Ai of the companions would not be upto the mechanics which is why I have said multiple times the loot and boss mechanics would need to be adjusted, but at least the scripting for the scenery is already there. Nice idea and great if they did it but i honestly cant see it happening. I can pretty much guarantee you I have a fuller appreciation for what it would take to accomplish this. What you need to understand of what I'm saying is this: In my judgement, what you've offered is a bad solution. it doesn't REALLY solve the problem, and it creates new problems. I'm pointing out what would be a GOOD solution. When you have a bad solution and a good solution to choose between, the right choice is always the latter - even though in almost every case, it does involve more work. Really, at the end of the day, it's a business decision - you have to spend money to make money, and all; the right solution is also the solution that makes you more money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarian Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 My argument is that it's a better to allocate those resources to unique solo content. Yeah...my argument is, they already have assets in the form of environments, writing, voice acting, etc., that could potentially be used to keep a different segment of their player base occupied than they were originally created for. That way, they get a bigger return from their investment in those assets. Of course, I'd have no problem with them doing both... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inarai Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Yeah...my argument is, they already have assets in the form of environments, writing, voice acting, etc., that could potentially be used to keep a different segment of their player base occupied than they were originally created for. That way, they get a bigger return from their investment in those assets. Of course, I'd have no problem with them doing both... Actually, if they introduce something that causes more problems, they could actually start to see less and less return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarian Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Actually, if they introduce something that causes more problems, they could actually start to see less and less return. It wouldn't cause me any problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inarai Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 It wouldn't cause me any problems. Which isn't the relevant scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarian Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Which isn't the relevant scale. To me it is. I realize that to Bioware it might not be, but that's for them to worry about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inarai Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 To me it is. I realize that to Bioware it might not be, but that's for them to worry about. Yeah, well, it's not the relevant scale for the discussion. It's about whether or not something should be added to the game, which means it has to be looked at on the game-level scale. Or are you saying that it's for them to worry about if it causes problems for the game, and if it does they shouldn't implement it; but you can't be bothered to think about that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarian Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Yeah, well, it's not the relevant scale for the discussion. It's about whether or not something should be added to the game, which means it has to be looked at on the game-level scale. My only purpose is to let them know what I want. I don't have anywhere near the information I'd need to know whether they can feasibly give it to me or, even if they could, whether they'd want to. But, doesn't hurt to ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inarai Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 My only purpose is to let them know what I want. I don't have anywhere near the information I'd need to know whether they can feasibly give it to me or, even if they could, whether they'd want to. But, doesn't hurt to ask. I find better suggestions come out of deeper thinking, t tell you the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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