Healing in PVP Needs Attention

[Twelve]

First off, I'm posting this as a non-healer. I'm a level 50 tank, full Champion gear, currently valor rank 53. However, I have run about 90% of my PVP with an Operative healer, so I feel I have some perspective from both sides.

 

OVERPOWERED

First off, healers are OVERPOWERED in PVP. I can defeat or put up a good fight against pretty much any class 1v1, even well geared and well played ones. However, healers are another story. If they have an ounce of skill, I can't beat them. They're practically invincible unless you have 3 or more people stunning and interrupting. Add a 2nd healer to their team, and you have pretty much NO chance. Last night, I watched 2 healers hold the door in Voidstar against no less than 5 Champion level opponents. They didn't kill us, but we couldn't take the door because of their combinations of stun/vanish/blind/whatever. And when we did focus fire one down, by the time we handled the 2nd one the first was back from respawn.

 

Basically, Civil War has become a battle for who can take the turrets first. If you don't take it first, you'll probably never get it back if they have any healers at all. Voidstar can be impossible to win if there are more than 2 or 3 healers in the group. Add to that the fact that on my server, Republic seems to be about 50% healers (and Imperial about 10%). Huttball is similar; 1 player running the ball with 3 healers is pretty much impossible to beat.

 

I don't have a solid suggestion on how to fix this issue. I know healing is already lowered in PVP. Maybe have interrupts lock the healer out of that ability for longer? I'm not asking to be able to solo one, I am just growing weary of facing a group with 4 healers in it and watching my entire team fail to take a single node.

 

Now, counterpoint...

 

UNDERPOWERED

I'm a fair, objectionable man. So, I want to show love to the healers. Last night, in Voidstar, as a tank, I gained 11 medals, something like 112 warzone commendations. I did decent DPS, protection, etc. My healing partner did 500,000 (!!!!) healing, and ended the match with 4 commendations. We've taken to setting up medals for him (ie, i take a player to low health and let him get a killing blow, etc). There's a sad imbalance in the amount of medals healers can gain, since it seems to be biased toward DPS and tanks. The humorous thing is, healers are so very important to winning a match, as stated above, and yet they get the least amount of credit!

 

I know some will tell me to L2P. I know how to play, fairly well I believe. I'm not nerdraging or anything, I'm just looking for some constructive discussion on how to resolve this issue. Maybe it's just my server; again, Rep seems to have a lot of healing, so I find myself on the losing end of many warzones thanks solely to that.

 

Thanks for reading.

[Solonius]

Good post.

[ToasterofDoom]

As a lvl 50 Operative Healer myself, i can see both sides of the argument. Even after the healing reduction I find myself being able to keep both myself and my tank up against 5+ (bad) people. If I were able to heal the same amounts I do in PVE it would be completely ridiculous.

 

On the other hand, when the other team is good, I just get splattered. I can't win anything one on one. At best, I can run away, at worst a smuggler or dps operative rips me a new one before i can stand back up. Well maybe given enough time, I might be able to get a solo kill, but that is exceedingly rare, especially against another lvl 50.

 

So I mean its as if we are overpowered in a group, but underpowered alone? Well if you are healer, you should be used to living vicariously and dying painfully. As for what to actually do about it? Interrupts are already powerful if used correctly, but many don't. The question is if you make healers even less effective, what do you give them in return? I honestly don't know a good solution to this problem, but one idea I have is:

 

Diminishing returns on healing on friendly targets, but allow full powered heals to start. Keeps healers potent in short engagements, but ensures that they cannot keep it up.

Edited January 20, 2012 by ToasterofDoom

[StellaRossa]

If you are in a good team, the enemy healer will be the first target, and in most cases dead in 10 seconds.

 

Though i agree about the second part. As a level 45 sage i had 300k + healing today and got like 2-3 medals...

[JohnSixteen]

A healer can get more badges if they you know... do more than heal. Here is how a typical match goes for me... (I'm about 30 valor with a partial pvp set)

 

- 2.5k heal (guaranteed)

- 75k healing (guaranteed)

- 300k healing (maybe)

- 1 Killing Blow (guaranteed)

- 10 kills (guaranteed)

- 25 kills (maybe)

- 75k damage (maybe)

 

Right there is anywhere from 4-7 medals, not including any of the "objective" based ones (like defender which can be 1-2, intercepting a hutt ball, etc.) I've reached 8-9 medals a few times.

 

That is roughly on par with most of the dps, I tend to be right near the top.

 

When it comes to badges, the real issue is that it is simply too easy for tanks to get more badges than everyone else and that is what needs to be addressed (not giving healers an easier time to get more). There is no reason guard should basically be worth a guaranteed 3 badges per match.

 

The real problem for your buddy is that he purely focuses on healing, which is just fine, but not optimal for badge collection if that is your primary goal. He could be doing more but isn't.

Edited January 20, 2012 by JohnSixteen

[Twelve]

You're right that he could probably focus on getting more medals. My complaint is really more that I can get to 8 or 9 without even trying, but he has to really set his mind to it to get to 4 or 5. Over time, I'm earning twice as many medals as he is, so he's going to have to run twice as many warzones to get the same number of commendations.

[master_axe]

Healers OP? Oh, you .

 

You need every role in a balanced amount, so calling anything OP is, once again, childish.

 

 

But healers are in no sense of their role OP. You may not have enough damage as a tank, but I've yet to see a healer keep up against two equally equipped DDs. Heck, I've seen myself and others go down against ONE. This isn't a L2P issue.

 

SADLY it cannot be a L2P issue- there's not enough tools at one's disposal to call it that. What can you do wrong when all you do is shield, hot, and double quick heal?

 

Also, the medals... meh.

 

I'm heal geared and specced, but I find myself spending significantly more time doing damage than anything else. Not only can I put in a greater dent, I also get a lot more medals. Plus I can easily grab the 2 healer medals that you can quickly get. ROFL at the wasted time for 300k, not like its worth it.

[manlytears]

Agreed.

[Orduno]

I enjoyed the part where apparently five Champion-geared players can't focus down a healer and another healer who are both taking the time to stop people from hitting the door.

[Talixo]

You can take my heals from PvP, when they take away your armor+inflated HP pool, tanking defensive cooldowns, guard, taunts, and interrupts.

 

I do think there should be 1-2 more healing debuff options beyond the sentinel/marauder mortal strike (wow reference) type attack.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Talixo

[touc]

You can take my heals from PvP, when they take away your armor+inflated HP pool, tanking defensive cooldowns, guard, taunts, and interrupts.

 

I do think there should be 1-2 more healing debuff options beyond the sentinel/marauder mortal strike (wow reference) type attack.

 

QFT; leave healers alone for now please

[JohnSixteen]

You're right that he could probably focus on getting more medals. My complaint is really more that I can get to 8 or 9 without even trying, but he has to really set his mind to it to get to 4 or 5. Over time, I'm earning twice as many medals as he is, so he's going to have to run twice as many warzones to get the same number of commendations.

 

You are absolutely right. But like I said, the actual solution to your particular complaint is not to buff your friend who could be doing more, but nerf yourself who is admittedly getting too much for too little effort

 

 

As for whether or not healers in general are OP? Oh they are most definitely helpful (and needed on most winning teams) but they are manageable. If 2-3 dps focus on me during a couple of stuns I will almost surely die. If I'm mostly ignored and allowed to run around like crazy then yes, me nor anyone else near me will be dieing.

 

That is why, more times than not, I am quickly jumped on by multiple people the instant I am spotted. Kind of annoying actually, but I can't blame them.

[Delavager]

I completely agree with the OP in both statements. Though I agree most people don't even know what an interrupt is, and as such you will not be able to kill a healer.

 

In addition to what is said there are other issues with balance and medals:

1. Dmg/Healing in one blow medals.

There are two medals which it seems only a few select class/specs can get, specifically the 5k dmg in one blow medal and the 5k healing in one blow medal. In order to get these you basically have to stack expertise against lower geared individuals. In addition, more importantly, it is biased against Damage/Healing Over Time type classes like a balance sage. If your primary source of healing/damage is stacking H/DOTs, you aren't going to be hitting for 5k, and thus have no chance to get that medal.

[JohnSixteen]

I'm heal geared and specced, but I find myself spending significantly more time doing damage than anything else. Not only can I put in a greater dent, I also get a lot more medals. Plus I can easily grab the 2 healer medals that you can quickly get. ROFL at the wasted time for 300k, not like its worth it.

 

My "plan" is basically to focus on the objectives and dps/heal about equally as much as I can. Once I hit 75k damage, I back off a bit on the damage (since you'll never get 300k damage anyways) and pump out more heals and more times than not I'll hit the 300k healing mark as well assuming the game didn't end early.

 

Hell, just dotting things up as I run around can net me 75k damage np during the course of a battle.

 

As for the 5k healing medal... yeah I've never seen it, highest heal has been maybe 3.5k. I'm not sure even decked in in pvp gear and blowing trinkets that I will break 5k.

Edited January 20, 2012 by JohnSixteen

[Thaderin]

Healers are not OP in this game, not by any stretch of the imagination.

 

Remember calling for an even further nerf to healing (beyond the inbuilt 30% debuff) will not only mean you'll be killing others faster but it also means YOU will be getting killed faster too.

[Twelve]

Some folks are taking this personal, or calling names (childish? where could you possibly get that from my post?)...that was certainly not my intent.

 

I just want to discuss. That's what forums are for, right? I'm not petitioning Bioware or screaming for the nerf bat. I see an issue; obviously, others do too, including healers.

 

The last thing I want is for there to be fewer healers, or for them to have less fun -- I just feel like a single healer can have a bit too much of an affect on the outcome of a warzone. Today, if I had the choice of bringing 1 healer or 3 DPS, or 1 healer or 3 tanks, I'd bring 1 healer pretty much every time. To me, that is the definition of "overpowered", and thus should be at least looked in to.

[Nisa]

they just need to incease the maras heal reduc to something higher than 20%. maybe give it to another class

[Dalindran]

Maybe I missed the memo, but exactly how is killing a healer in pvp in this MMO any different than killing a healer in pvp in every other MMO? Recognize, interrupt, focus fire. It has worked in every other MMO I've played, why should this be any different here? Like I said, did I miss a memo or something?

 

As for the OP you are a self admitted tank, you are built to take damage not dish it. Seems to me your biggest issue isn't enemy healers, its that you don't understand your role in the group. How much valor you have gleaned and your rank means nothing to me in that regards. The fact that you are complaining about healers in pvp tells me you didn't earn them, you got carried.

 

Have fun !

 

PS: I am dps, I wouldn't play a healer if my life depended on it. They get no recognition for their efforts most of the time, but yet everyone wants one around so long as they don't have to play one.

[boooshy]

As a scoundrel healer I can make 9-11 medals on a fair length game, let me name some:

 

2.5k heal

5k heal

75k healing

300k healing

2.5k hit

5k hit

75k damage

killing blow

assassin

defender x2 (on civil war)

 

If all of these medals were accessible pre-50 and for low geared 50's, what would the battlemasters have to look forward to?

[Sylvan]

You can't kill a healer because you are a tank with low DPS and the ones you fight are probably LOS'ing you like pros.

 

Are you aware healers get a 30% reduction to their healing potential, and are you also aware a good healer is the number 1 target for an enemy group? Tanks are pretty much ignored.

 

Don't tell me we're OP. Our damage is low and it's really not easy healing when you play a smart team who instantly focus you down and stop you healing anyone but yourself, thus robbing you of even more medals.

 

Healers have a really hard time in SWTOR and the last thing we need it our abilities reduced.

 

I commend you for trying to raise awareness of the medal situation.

[Achromatis]

Some folks are taking this personal, or calling names (childish? where could you possibly get that from my post?)...that was certainly not my intent.

 

I just want to discuss. That's what forums are for, right? I'm not petitioning Bioware or screaming for the nerf bat. I see an issue; obviously, others do too, including healers.

 

The last thing I want is for there to be fewer healers, or for them to have less fun -- I just feel like a single healer can have a bit too much of an affect on the outcome of a warzone. Today, if I had the choice of bringing 1 healer or 3 DPS, or 1 healer or 3 tanks, I'd bring 1 healer pretty much every time. To me, that is the definition of "overpowered", and thus should be at least looked in to.

 

Well honestly they should be with the current design, because there will always be far less healers than DPS. Ideally(IMO, and not for this game) healers and tanks in group play would be more of a group support thing, but would not be able to 1v1.

 

But the majority of people play PUGs, and nerfing healers or tanks in the 1v1 department too much would have a net result of far far far less people playing those roles in warzones. On the other hand you could nerf their group support, but that would have the same net result of less people playing them.

 

Its a problem with using the "Trinity" class system, it will always persist.

 

I think leaving some classes(like Scoundrels(burst tree), and healers in general) overpowered in 1v1 is fine because if you focus fire either of them theyre not so tough. The warzones are fairly well designed in that even if you want to go off and lonewolf the maps funnel all the players to certain choke points, reducing the number of 1v1 scenarios(comparing it to something like Alterac Valley, lol).

 

 

ALTHOUGH while I dont think theres a problem with the healing, theres a problem with some parts of some warzones that play to a healers strength too much. Like you said, turrets in Civil War. That could be fixed by putting turrets on a timer, so after ~1min control resets requiring it to be recaptured. Or making it overload after one team controls it for ~5mins, killing anyone who was on the controlling team thats nearby. Something that resets that initial "whoever gets there first will win" situation.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Achromatis

[Zaldimar]

As a healer in WZ's I already know the rarity I was. I have ran into maybe 3 of 4 other healers on my server. When i say healers I say people that heal over 100K a match. I used to do 450-500k pretty regularly now it's 300-350k

 

 

truth of the matter I now feel guilty if I que and take the spot of a DPS class as it's basically become who has the most AE on a spot or focus. My role is now needed only in PvE and that's ok if that's the direction they want the game. Current issue is they lowered the healing etc. based on the fact you have a tank guarding you. The real fix would have been to lower the tanks "guarding" ability on me not my ability to heal another class that was taking damage. yes it was a little borked I know Me and my tank could not die against a group of 7 for the most part if people refused to use interupts etc on me. For some reason i never got the white bar unless I was dead.

 

i never got in this game for the PvP and never counted it as a game that was a pvp game. It was something i would do on the side every now and then for fun if my team needed me. currently grab a bed pack and you'll get a better Direct targeted Heal then i could give you. I don't expect to kill anyone as a healer, but i do expect to keep my group and me up the best I can unlessed focused.

[Nisa]

Maybe I missed the memo, but exactly how is killing a healer in pvp in this MMO any different than killing a healer in pvp in every other MMO? Recognize, interrupt, focus fire. It has worked in every other MMO I've played, why should this be any different here? Like I said, did I miss a memo or something?

 

the interrupt in swtor only works against the spell being cast instead of a school. healers have more than one heal

 

w/e tho it's not that op..just 1v1 is when it bugs me

[belialle]

In a 5v2 scenario, you would have at least 2 people per player. I'm sorry that you guys had low DPS or that you couldn't figure out which spells to interrupt or how to coordinate your interrupts and other CCs to disrupt their healing. Edited January 20, 2012 by belialle

[Kyday]

I have already said this about a hundred timer but here is it again:

 

It is in the wrong game design!

 

I mean seriously trying to fix a totaly badly balanced system for pvp with a -heal buff? Come on! Now is the part where it gets tricky. Rupts dont prevent casting all healing spells - they simply lock one -> fail.

 

Secondly: Figures, all of them, hp, heal, damage are way to high for solid balance -> the effect you gain is an incalculateble variety of imbalance.

For Instance i play a Sith Assassin and even with every from the Start up bursting and I mean with every possibly imaginable perfect rupt, refocus etc. I am still noch able to kill a healer without 100% crit chance before he can heal up 2-3 times.

 

This is due to bad PvE design by our beloved fail PvE and PVP Lead Designer Gale "Failmore".

Problem is environment does way to much damage, and by that i mean it. -> Healers must heal faster stronger -> healers get high heal output due to being able to heal operations/heroics -> healing is too strong in pvp and gets nerfed by 30% standard... yeah but yet the hp pool designed to take this much damage and being healed this much is not at all adjustet. What i am saying is that damage output should be 30% less at max values, but same at minimum and average, simple let the max damage cap of every class shrink by about 30% und reduce hp to 10k for non tanks, adjust healing rates and buff tank gear to 16k -> no more problems with the pvp as it is for now. Too bad it isnt like that now -> fail