No Longer Camping Bases... Stand in Line for Free Valor...

[Scoobings]

We're not professionals. We're paying to play TOR, not the other way around.

 

And it's game theory. If you fight all out against the other team, fewer total shoes are awarded. By cooperating, you maximize the amount of shoes paid out, and have the highest chance of getting them for yourself.

 

When rewards are on the line, cooperation beats out random murder, even in video games.

 

Not if people realize that they can get more by not sharing. This is why wars are fought.

 

But you're right, bad people are always going to find a way to do trades and take advantage of the system. But this occurs in literally every single game with stat tracking and rewards based pvp matches.

 

Also, if this is some kind of backwards arguement that there shouldn't be rewards, I'd disagree with you again because even as a real PVPer I like having something to work for, and a fruits to enjoy for succeeding. I like having more shoes than other people.

 

I really don't see it as a flaw in the game so much as a flaw in enforcement. These people should get the ban hammer, or at least a temp suspension with a warning if they do it again they're banned.

[ImURmaster]

Rewards for PVP = Death of PVP.

 

Perhaps all of the MMO devs will learn this lesson about 10 years down the road.

 

And there a 100s of threads created previously that say basically "No rewards for Open PVP = Death of PvP".

[EternalFinality]

Not if people realize that they can get more by not sharing. This is why wars are fought.

 

In TOR, you do not get more by not sharing. And thus, here we are.

 

Also, if this is some kind of backwards arguement that there shouldn't be rewards, I'd disagree with you again because even as a real PVPer I like having something to work for, and a fruits to enjoy for succeeding. I like having more shoes than other people.

 

The best PvP in WoW was before they added Battlegrounds. Stranglethorn Vale was amazing. It truly was better when there was "no point."

[yukirshiro]

BW undoubtedly needs to grow some balls and start banning people instead of giving out meaningless 3 day warnings without even taking away the ill-gotten gains.

 

That said, there are serious problems with Ilum's model. The original model was stupid but the new model is also extremely stupid.

 

You need to reward players for taking and holding objectives, not for mindlessly kill-trading or objective-trading.

 

The first step is to take the daily quest element out of it. This is just a flawed system for open world PVP and it promotes a "do my daily and go" attitude.

 

Second, they need forts to take that provide meaningful rewards for taking AND for holding.

 

Third, dying needs some consequences. It shouldn't just be a 30 second respawn and run back to kill trade again sort of thing.

[-Fenix]

You edited out the bold part.

 

And that's exaclty what I was arguing against. If I just wanted "e-sports" or "straight PvP" then I'd play Call of Duty, Counterstrike, or Battlefield 3.

 

I don't get why everyone thinks you can't implement a system that offers PvP with good character progression as well.

 

I suppose that would mean the developers would have to actually put some thought and work into it. We wouldn't want that now would we?

 

I edited it out because it was wrong. E-sports is about competition, not so much about rewards (disregarding potential money from winning). PVP is not about rewards or competition. It's strictly killing other players, just to kill them. Sometimes there are extra motivations behind it, such as trash talk or owning a particular area or resource, but in the end always about killing.

 

I said Call of Duty because it has the progression from killing you're talking about. As a result it also has guns that are better than other lower tier ones. Player skill sometimes negates that, but usually an overpowered gun will trump a lone player's skill because one player can't stop his teammates from dying.

 

I could go on, but what I said to begin with summarizes it best: rewards for PVP = death of PVP.

Edited January 20, 2012 by -Fenix

[Scoobings]

No one brings up DAoC because they just want a DAoC clone. Most DAoC players, I count myself among them, HATED aspects of the game which we found relief from in WoW. Most notable of them was the Fin Tree in Hib where you spent hour after hour killing the same 3 (and every once and a while the rogue 4th) mobs to lvl from 44ish to 50.

 

The reason people, and I am included in that, bring up DAoC is because we just can't understand how one game could get PvP end game done so well yet have the MMO world completely ignore it. What all the MMOs copy is WoW's version of PvP for some reason while pretending no other game had figured out a good base concept for PvP yet.

 

It is more out of confusion people bring up DAoC then wanting to pimp the game or make SW:TOR a new DAoC. The confusion in how 10 years after its release the world of MMO developers pretend it never existed... also how Bioware, who took over the Mythic operations decided to copy the WoW version over the version they own the IP for (RvR).

 

That's a fine point. I do feel there's a lot of room for improvement to the pvp system in general, it's just that people bring the game up a lot, specifically in situations like this where it really isn't contributing to the conversation. All I'm trying to say is "yes I get it you think DAOC is the bee's knees, but we're trying to figure this game out."

 

If there's an aspect of DAOC that would function well int he confines of SWTOR that's just groovy and you should mention it as it's relevent but to just constantly complain about the lack of RVR and gear based progression is kind of stupid because you knew what kind of game you were buying (it wasn't a secret) and you knew those features weren't in. We also know that RVR wouldn't work in this game, and we also know that this is a game based around gear. These are truths that you need to accept about this game.

[Venrale]

No one brings up DAoC because they just want a DAoC clone. Most DAoC players, I count myself among them, HATED aspects of the game which we found relief from in WoW. Most notable of them was the Fin Tree in Hib where you spent hour after hour killing the same 3 (and every once and a while the rogue 4th) mobs to lvl from 44ish to 50.

 

The reason people, and I am included in that, bring up DAoC is because we just can't understand how one game could get PvP end game done so well yet have the MMO world completely ignore it. What all the MMOs copy is WoW's version of PvP for some reason while pretending no other game had figured out a good base concept for PvP yet.

 

It is more out of confusion people bring up DAoC then wanting to pimp the game or make SW:TOR a new DAoC. The confusion in how 10 years after its release the world of MMO developers pretend it never existed... also how Bioware, who took over the Mythic operations decided to copy the WoW version over the version they own the IP for (RvR).

honestly UO had best pvp any mmo has ever had and they were the first game to implement it. people pvped for the pure sake of pvping and when they added factions the pvp just got better because you had massive battles of boths sides just not caring about how many times they died as long as the pvp kept going and since there were 4 factions you would somtimes have them all in the same area all fighting each other. People played like this on UO because there was no point to having better gear in pvp as you lost it on death, so people wore basic gear, if that were the case with this game that would be annoying but their needs to be somthing in place to make it so your not pvping for to obtain an objective. Make it so you cant wear raid gear in Illum and remove expertise and the pvp gear system would work so much better, the pvp gear would have a slight edge but not the huge one and End Game raiders wouldnt be able to come in with gear that normal ppl cant obtain and just dominate.

 

yesss for posting at work with lots of typos

Edited January 20, 2012 by Venrale

[big_aug]

I edited it out because it was wrong. E-sports is about competition, not so much about rewards (disregarding potential money from winning). PVP is not about rewards or competition. It's strictly killing other players, just to kill them. Sometimes there are motivations behind it, such as trash talk or owning a particular area or resource, but in the end always about killing.

 

I said Call of Duty because it has the progression from killing you're talking about. As a result it also has guns that are better than other lower tier ones. Player skill sometimes negates that, but usually an overpowered gun will trump a lone player's skill because one player can't stop his teammates from dying.

 

I could go on, but what I said to begin with summarizes it best: rewards for PVP = death of PVP.

 

I dunno man... Counterstrike gave you money for kills and wins. That let you have better guns each round. People could still win if they were better, but better guns made it a lot easier.

 

That game has been going strong for a LONG time.

[Scoobings]

The farming mentality is human nature. I agree that we shouldn't do it. However, when systems are put into place that allow it, there is no doubt people will take advantage of it. This is especially the case when you make it VERY EASY to do or MORE REWARDING than the act you should be doing.

 

The developers should have put in place things to save us from ourselves. That sounds funny/sarcastic, but it's the truth.

 

People can claim to be high and mighty and not participate in such things, but when presented the easy road or the hard road to the SAME REWARD, people will choose the easy road.

 

You need to make the hard road more rewarding or make the easy road so tedious and boring that even though you can get similar rewards, its not worth the time. Right now, it's the exact opposite.

 

It's the saem reason why people roll "FOTM" classes and builds. People aren't going to "gimp" themselves just for the hell of it. There has to be an upside to it as well.

 

And lets just say that the PvP in SWTOR isn't so freaking awesome that it outweighs getting the rewards in a more tedious fashion.

 

Is it actually faster though? I'm skeptical of that. With DRs on kills, and the time to kill them, run back, get killed, run back etc. I can't imagine that this is really all that productive and faster.

 

Who knows though, maybe it is. Either way they should be banned, just like in any other game, for stat padding and trading.

[big_aug]

It's definitely faster for doing a daily.

 

Dailies suck anyway. They need to fix that and just give commendations for kills and make all the gear cost commendations or something.

[-Fenix]

I dunno man... Counterstrike gave you money for kills and wins. That let you have better guns each round. People could still win if they were better, but better guns made it a lot easier.

 

That game has been going strong for a LONG time.

 

Never played Counterstrike (and probably won't cause I hate Steam). Off topic, but one of my favorite old school FPS's was the original Rainbow Six. It was back before the era about rewards. It was about killing and winning and all about skill and planning.

Edited January 20, 2012 by -Fenix

[PlagaNerezza]

Why do people constantly aruge that there should be no rewards for PvP and you should PvP for hte sake of it?

 

If that's what I watned, I'd just play Counterstrike.

 

I want to PvP and progress my character.

 

This is why DAoC's system was great. You actually got skills from participating in PvP. You got your gear from PvE and gained Realm Ranks in PVP that you could then use to get more powerful skills.

 

Beyond that, DAoC had the stat tracking system. You could see what players, guilds, etc had gotten the most Realm Points, most Realm Points per death, etc, etc. It was a game designed around PvP. PvE was an afterthought for most people who played it. Update the graphics, tweak it, and put it in a futuristic setting instead of the typical fantasy BS and I'd play the hell out of it again.

 

PvP to get better gear is stupid.

 

 

Edit: And no, it was not my first MMORPG. It is not "rose colored glasses." It is not nostalgia. I played several before and after it, but it was by far my favorite.

 

The community dynamic was far and away better than any other game. The struggle between the top guilds within factions combined with the struggle between the three seperate factions was just awesome.

 

Vault boards anyone?

 

I agree with your main assertion on MMO pvp giving you a return on your time investment in terms of better stats.

 

The notion you deserve faceroll statistical advantages is absurd. Doing something that nets a 1-3% mathmatical advantage in pvp. Sure I'd be ok with that sort of edge if you devoted the time to get that edge.

 

However, you need to cap out at a fixed percentage advantage over others. Eventually, that cap is raised when many people have the same advantage. To give you a new way to create that statistical advantage by investing time, money and energy in the game.

 

What bioware has done in pvp with expertise is unbalanced top end pvp.

 

You either nerf it (easy) or let crafters make comparable pvp gear to backfill the market.

 

What I have gathered so far people like:

 

Add Expertise buff in 50 wz.

Nerf PvP Armor

Allow Crafters to Make Comparable PvP Armor

 

My solution now:

Give Crafters the ability to make the armor and weapons. to valor 65.

Have art develop a new set of PvP armor for Max Rank.

 

Give it a 2% over stat rating on the new set and make it super rare loot drop on illum pvp. Problem solved.

[Noleader]

That's a fine point. I do feel there's a lot of room for improvement to the pvp system in general, it's just that people bring the game up a lot, specifically in situations like this where it really isn't contributing to the conversation. All I'm trying to say is "yes I get it you think DAOC is the bee's knees, but we're trying to figure this game out."

 

If there's an aspect of DAOC that would function well int he confines of SWTOR that's just groovy and you should mention it as it's relevent but to just constantly complain about the lack of RVR and gear based progression is kind of stupid because you knew what kind of game you were buying (it wasn't a secret) and you knew those features weren't in. We also know that RVR wouldn't work in this game, and we also know that this is a game based around gear. These are truths that you need to accept about this game.

 

While I agree the general dynamic of MMOs have changed (no one would accept PC made armor as being the best anymore) I do not think that means a RvRish setup would not work. What bought people out to RvR, well before Realm Ranks took on a leveling tree, was the relics that were in play. Your realm was trying to control all 6 relics to get a 20% bonus to magic and 20% bonus to melee powers. The end result was people wanting those bonuses so they came out in mass to protect or take relics. Mostly because those bonuses made PvEing a lot easier too.

 

That kind of concept would even work in gear driven games like SW:TOR because the end result is to be more powerful... it also ensures both sides will not work together because it does not serve their interests. While I know there are a lot of things that would need to be worked out (I know you can't just grab a DAoC style PvP and set it in this game) I am sure it would offer a good base to develop on and expand from.

 

What we saw in that video was nothing more then an expression of Adam Smith's Invisible Hand at work. People will spontaneously organize to serve their own interests. The goal of the developers should be to make sure that serving ones interests never serves the interests of the enemy.

[murshawursha]

Here's my problem. I played SWG, and I spent more time in that game wandering around with a group of guildmates from enemy city to enemy city just looking for people to fight. If we found somebody, we killed them. Then, they sent out a call to their guildmates for support, and next thing you know, we had a good solid fight on our hands. And it was fun, dammit. There was no carrot. The only reward was the thrill of fighting other players.

 

The problem with TOR: I enjoy Warzones, but because of the impact gear has at level 50, in order to be able to compete, I basically need expertise gear.

 

I wandered around Ilum by myself for a little over an hour yesterday. In that hour, I found and killed four other solo players. Other than that, I ran into one group of three at central assault, and they killed me. I mentioned in general chat that they were there, but by the time I got back (and more Imps showed up), they'd moved on.

 

That is not fun. Wandering around for an hour and finding five fights is not fun. It's not fun because I'm doing more wandering than PvPing. If this was a game like SWG, I would just leave and come back another time, hoping more people were there. But, since I need 30 kills to complete the daily to get a champion bag, and I need champion bags to get expertise gear, and I need expertise gear to be competitive in warzones, I'm faced with either wandering around for eternity hoping I come across enough people for kills, waiting on the horribly long spawn time for armaments and hoping I can get to them before someone else does, or finding a willing Republic player and trading deaths for a few minutes so both of us can get on with our lives. And it's not the kind of thing I would even bother doing if not for the Champion bags.

 

I think 30 kills a day is too many. I think 10-15 would be more reasonable. At least it would save me from wandering. Also, shrinking Ilum so it doesn't take 5-15 minutes to get from one point to another when I hear or see Republic at one of them, so thhat maybe I can actually get there before they move somewhere else.

 

TL;DR: I agree that PvP rewards facilitate stuff like this.

[Scoobings]

It's definitely faster for doing a daily.

 

Dailies suck anyway. They need to fix that and just give commendations for kills and make all the gear cost commendations or something.

 

I'll drink to that.

[BDutch]

And there a 100s of threads created previously that say basically "No rewards for Open PVP = Death of PvP".

 

It's a little more complicated than that. It's:

No rewards for Open PvP +

Instanced PvP with rewards +

Large faction balance issues +

Most zones designed to keep factions separate =

Death of [open world] PvP

 

Open PvP has/had a lot more going against it than simple incentive. I guarantee there would be world PvP happening on every server if there were no WZ, no PvP gear, no rewards... absolutely nothing creating an incentive to PvP.

 

I'm basing this on games like WoW and AoC at release. I know it's hard to fathom for some people that came into the genre mid-WoW and WoW clones, but people actually PvP'ed for no reason other than to kill other players. Crazy, I know.

 

Illum is a perfect example of what people will do in a game, despite whatever they would have more fun doing. Nobody thinks it sounds like fun to just pile up and take turns farming eachother, but they will do it right up until the day they quit for a different MMO. What is popular doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what is best for the game or the gamer. It's kind of like turning on cheats in single-player games. It can be tempting and amusing, but will almost certainly decrease the longevity and satisfaction of the game.

[big_aug]

Never played Counterstrike (and probably won't cause I hate Steam). Off topic, but one of my favorite old school FPS's was the original Rainbow Six. It was before before the era about rewards. It was about killing and winning and all about skill and planning.

 

I played it too. The reward was "winning" the match. There is nothing to win in this game. The gameplay isn't good enough or entertaining enough to make "winning" viable as the only reward anyway. That's a problem with MMO's in general though.

[EternalFinality]

I dunno man... Counterstrike gave you money for kills and wins. That let you have better guns each round. People could still win if they were better, but better guns made it a lot easier.

 

That game has been going strong for a LONG time.

 

But it didn't make you start with guns after the next map change.

 

Doing well didn't start you with more money the next day.

 

THIS is why people play competitively in these games all the time - there's no PERMANENT rewards.

 

In MMOs, there are - so cooperation to gain permanent rewards is more important than short term competition.

[Aghar]

Rewards for PVP = Death of PVP.

 

Perhaps all of the MMO devs will learn this lesson about 10 years down the road.

 

SO MUCH THIS

 

 

I don't pvp for gear, or some kind of shiny token. I pvp because I enjoy it, I don't need a reward to bury my lightsaber in your chest. But due to the fact they associated rewards to pvp, and said rewards are required to do pvp, I have to find the most efficient method possible to get that gear/reward.

[big_aug]

But it didn't make you start with guns after the next map change.

 

Doing well didn't start you with more money the next day.

 

THIS is why people play competitively in these games all the time - there's no PERMANENT rewards.

 

In MMOs, there are - so cooperation to gain permanent rewards is more important than short term competition.

 

I agree with eveyrthing but the bolded part. My point is that rewards are not inherently bad. Systems can be designed to make them work and work well.

 

They are just implemented in a piss poor way in this game. The system has to make cooperation and reward mutually exclusive (or at least really difficult).

Edited January 20, 2012 by big_aug

[Peeppjynx]

I wasn't going to post. Honestly. I run around and I see bugs and glitches and I have a list in my head and I keep telling myself, "I'm going to write this down and make one long epic post about what's wrong and what needs to be fixed."

This MIGHT turn into one of those posts, but I will try my hardest to not go there.

 

So... I'll just start with that.

 

Call it poor game design, call it people cheating the system... but picture this: If we were all just running around ilum, chasing each other and killing the opposing faction, would it be any different than what's going on now?

It's how ilum is designed.

The only difference being, these are coordinated kills. Organized.

 

Even playing the game normally, Empire was still camping the Republic spawn point and ganking them.

 

I've discussed this in length with people who see both sides of the issue.

 

However, this is not an exploit. It's the design. However, the basketball comment summed it up. (also hilarious) But if both sides are willing, only the referees can tell them to go home and end the game.

 

There are no rewards for this either.

I, personally, like the Warzones. It gives me a chance to get commendations for rewards.

Ganking people in ilum doesn't do much. To get any real gains, though quicker, still takes up a decent chunk of time.

 

Above all else - marinate on this... what else is everyone supposed to do when the game boots you from FP's WZ's or even just bouncing around the galaxy. Even now, I'm sitting on the Imperial Fleet crafting and sending companions on missions and I've been booted no less than 3 times.

[Scoobings]

While I agree the general dynamic of MMOs have changed (no one would accept PC made armor as being the best anymore) I do not think that means a RvRish setup would not work. What bought people out to RvR, well before Realm Ranks took on a leveling tree, was the relics that were in play. Your realm was trying to control all 6 relics to get a 20% bonus to magic and 20% bonus to melee powers. The end result was people wanting those bonuses so they came out in mass to protect or take relics. Mostly because those bonuses made PvEing a lot easier too.

 

That kind of concept would even work in gear driven games like SW:TOR because the end result is to be more powerful... it also ensures both sides will not work together because it does not serve their interests. While I know there are a lot of things that would need to be worked out (I know you can't just grab a DAoC style PvP and set it in this game) I am sure it would offer a good base to develop on and expand from.

 

What we saw in that video was nothing more then an expression of Adam Smith's Invisible Hand at work. People will spontaneously organize to serve their own interests. The goal of the developers should be to make sure that serving ones interests never serves the interests of the enemy.

 

The problem with RvR is it seems unlkely to me that there is any sort of structure between servers in place to let them war with each other. On top of that there are split factions on each server, and from a lore perspective it really doesn't make any sense at all.

 

If we were just to have the 2 factions pvp over relics:

 

I think that's a fantastic idea but we would just have Ilum part2, which is that the imperials would zerg the pubs. There's probably a way to balance that out in the long run however.

 

I agree there needs to be an objective, and a point to winning Ilum. I have always thought from day one that it's stupid there is no reason to capturing Ilum.

[big_aug]

The problem with RvR is it seems unlkely to me that there is any sort of structure between servers in place to let them war with each other. On top of that there are split factions on each server, and from a lore perspective it really doesn't make any sense at all.

 

If we were just to have the 2 factions pvp over relics:

 

I think that's a fantastic idea but we would just have Ilum part2, which is that the imperials would zerg the pubs. There's probably a way to balance that out in the long run however.

 

I agree there needs to be an objective, and a point to winning Ilum. I have always thought from day one that it's stupid there is no reason to capturing Ilum.

 

If they gave a more significant bonus to Warzone valor as well as bonus commendatinos for controlling Illum, that would probably help. Add in some bonuses to standard exp and legacy exp as well. Maybe some small combat buffs like 5% dmg or something for controlling all the points. Stuff like that.

 

Add in some legacy experience and commendations for kills, along with diminishing returns. Also put in place a system that divides the rewards among groups rather than operations. Divide it equally among groups. The amount your group gets depends on the damage you do to the opponent. Something like that.

 

Pretty simple stuff actually.

 

 

Get rid of the dailies too.

Edited January 20, 2012 by big_aug

[Lavath]

Here's my problem. I played SWG, and I spent more time in that game wandering around with a group of guildmates from enemy city to enemy city just looking for people to fight. If we found somebody, we killed them. Then, they sent out a call to their guildmates for support, and next thing you know, we had a good solid fight on our hands. And it was fun, dammit. There was no carrot. The only reward was the thrill of fighting other players.

 

The problem with TOR: I enjoy Warzones, but because of the impact gear has at level 50, in order to be able to compete, I basically need expertise gear.

 

I wandered around Ilum by myself for a little over an hour yesterday. In that hour, I found and killed four other solo players. Other than that, I ran into one group of three at central assault, and they killed me. I mentioned in general chat that they were there, but by the time I got back (and more Imps showed up), they'd moved on.

 

That is not fun. Wandering around for an hour and finding five fights is not fun. It's not fun because I'm doing more wandering than PvPing. If this was a game like SWG, I would just leave and come back another time, hoping more people were there. But, since I need 30 kills to complete the daily to get a champion bag, and I need champion bags to get expertise gear, and I need expertise gear to be competitive in warzones, I'm faced with either wandering around for eternity hoping I come across enough people for kills, waiting on the horribly long spawn time for armaments and hoping I can get to them before someone else does, or finding a willing Republic player and trading deaths for a few minutes so both of us can get on with our lives. And it's not the kind of thing I would even bother doing if not for the Champion bags.

 

I think 30 kills a day is too many. I think 10-15 would be more reasonable. At least it would save me from wandering. Also, shrinking Ilum so it doesn't take 5-15 minutes to get from one point to another when I hear or see Republic at one of them, so thhat maybe I can actually get there before they move somewhere else.

 

TL;DR: I agree that PvP rewards facilitate stuff like this.

 

Appropriately worded. This completely explains the situation in a calm and logical tone. I wish I could make sure the devs got this memo because it would give them something to think about. Unfortunately, it is well thought out, logical, explanations like this that are lost to the see of "fixit noa!" whining.

 

I'm considering going to the new "server forums" and trying to start up a thread to have interested republic and empire groups meet up in ilum/Tatooine for the purpose of pvp. Not for farming valor or for a champion bag (which will only have my 14th helm or relic in it). Simply because large scale pvp is fun when both sides have the same chance.

[Rasheth]

People asked for received it now exploit it. Most of those people probably don't post anymore. Now the people are saying you don't need rewards. Can't please everyone and BW needs to realize that.

 

I say go back to no rewards for open world except social gear which does nothing but change appearance.