Why people hate arenas

[BloatedGuppy]

The argument was wither Blizz "denounced arenas", they did not, as you so eloquently put "denounce arenas" as that would imply they are denouncing them in a general sense, not just in WoW, not even just in MMO's.

 

They denounced making an e-sport game without considering the e-sport side of it from the beginning, which they didn't do.

 

Hence my uproar where one troll after another claims the devs think arena was the biggest mistake in WoW by virtue of it being arena without listing the full quote, mentioning that they would have liked (if they did it) to include it from the start with the sturcturing in place to make it succeed.

 

I don't tolerate people spreading false information very well, and the trolls constantly berating down the door with these ignorant comments get tiresome. They spread ignorance with more ignorance.

 

I understand completely where the quote came from and agree with that dev. However I don't agree with people using it as their biggest arguement against arenas in any MMO that doesn't ship with them by claiming "SEE! LOOK! ANOTHER MMO THAT DID IT SAID IT WAS A MISTAKE!" That's just silly. MMO's evolve, grow, and push forward. If they don't, they wither and die like so many others that didn't last more than a couple years.

 

The quote is not saying that arena itself is a mistake, nor that it was a mistake in WoW. Just that they would have rather taken arena into the game from launch, or not done it at all because they didn't put the proper structure in place to do both. People seem to always leave out the part where they might have rather just included it from the start as part of the core game. That's the part that makes it obvious to me that many people just don't read the quote and spam the drivel of "BLIZ HATES ARENA! BIGGEST MISTAKE EVAH!" which is 100% false.

 

But WoW is the only place it was ever called "Arenas".

 

Lol @ Arenas isn't the same thing as Lol @ e-sports.

 

I understand you're trying to defend e-sports, but I don't think e-sports are under attack. I think people are mocking Arenas, and rightfully so, they were hilariously stupid.

 

No, the fact they failed in WoW is not evidence we should never have another e-sport game.

 

But TOR? This game cannot support them. You don't need a degree in games design to recognize that.

[BloatedGuppy]

^^^^TLDR: I'm bad at skill based pvp so it shouldn't exist

 

That's not what he said at all.

 

He said he likes skill based pvp, and that it isn't properly represented by Arenas.

 

And it's not.

[KorwinOfAmber]

^^^^TLDR: I'm bad at skill based pvp so it shouldn't exist

 

What you said is certainly true for yourself - since you consider "wow pvp" "pvp" at all, and on top of that "skill based", revealing you have no clue at all and its probably the only MMO you played.

 

As someone who played and pvped since UO and Meridian 59 times and successfully fought in UO pvp (thats still best), organized Anarchy Online pvp, mass Daoc and War PvP, real world strategic and personal fps skill based Darkfall PvP, laggy FPS Neocron pvp, horrible zerg asian grinders pvp, dynamic AoC pvp, WoW since first beta before you even heard of it, even for the lulz of it Tabula Rasa "pvp" - got to say that people to refer to WoW PvP as skill based and at all as "pvp" make me smile everytime.

 

Its like teenagers making the wrong turn and landing on the wrong party, wearing Britney Spears t-shirt and pink shoes at the business gathering or a punk party - not realizing they look like fools, their topics reveal them as bigger fools, and talking to others how they Lady Gaga is the best singer ever and they were on all her concerts does not automatically raise them in eyes of the others.

[BloatedGuppy]

I refuse to accept that any such thing as Esport exists. As an athlete I find calling anything a sport where you sit on your arse clicking a mouse is retarded. Similar to Chess being called a sport. Dumbest stuff I've heard. Now I've gotten that off my chest.

 

I appreciate sports and I appreciate chess and other strategic games that require tactical thinking. There's actually a lot of overlap between the two. There's a reason some of the very best athletes are referred to as "students of the game".

[EasymodeX]

Anyone saying Arena is based solely on class composition and gear is just bad. The biggest element to arena is/was skill and I think some people have a hard time facing the fact that they didn't get 2200+ because they just weren't good enough.

 

The first 90% of arena is gear and comp. The last 10% is skill.

[EternalFinality]

If not, I bet Rock-Paper-Scissor-Lizzard-Spock, is.

 

But nothing beats Spock!

[AntoniusDelitan]

but nothing beats spock!

 

Incoming SpockFuCleave!!

Edited January 20, 2012 by AntoniusDelitan

[BloatedGuppy]

As someone who played and pvped since UO and Meridian 59 times and successfully fought in UO pvp (thats still best),

Let's not prop it up TOO much. Remember when you could run around in a leather brassiere and a wizard's cap and be immune to fire? Or when magic missile would one-shot anyone in heavy armor?

 

UO was always too freakishly buggy to be a good example of fair, balanced PvP.

 

It was fun though!

[Vulm]

Oh I'm sure there WILL be some form of rated competition in TOR. And just like Arenas, it will be completely ridiculous, and anyone who actually likes fair, balanced PvP will immediately recognize it as such, and have a good little laugh.

 

This isn't a "challenge" question at all, and it's a weird place for that particular rant. That you apparently believe WoW's Arenas represented some gold standard of "challenge", however, is frankly alarming.

 

Don't know how you jumped to that conclusion. I don't want this game to be like WoW, but I do want there to be a challenge pvp wise other than grinding a meaningless level to 60. I'm sorry but if you believe that arena wasn't a challenge in WoW (IN COMPARISON to the other things the game offered) then you are so anti-arena you're just blindly hating on it.

 

Anyway, comparing WoW arenas when thinking about arenas in this game is stupid. This isn't WoW, and taking the main problems from WoW's arena and working on them could even produce a great pvp system.

 

As for the challenge thing, I gathered from many posts in this thread: "PvPers are such a minority we shouldn't add anything competitive into this game because Bioware don't care about us, lets just be content with our meaningless WZ grinds and do some boring PvE" and this is the PvP forum.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Vulm

[Vlaid]

But WoW is the only place it was ever called "Arenas".

 

Lol @ Arenas isn't the same thing as Lol @ e-sports.

 

I understand you're trying to defend e-sports, but I don't think e-sports are under attack. I think people are mocking Arenas, and rightfully so, they were hilariously stupid.

 

No, the fact they failed in WoW is not evidence we should never have another e-sport game.

 

But TOR? This game cannot support them. You don't need a degree in games design to recognize that.

 

Well like it or not, they didn't claim arenas at all in WoW is a bad thing, which is what the majority of people who try to use that quote as a weapon tend to say.

 

I tend to agree that without massive changes to the game, arena won't work. But as I see it, the game needs massive changes anyway, so why not?

 

In all honesty though, if you're worried about micro balance in arenas, you should be worried about micro balance in Warzones. Right now, there is no incentive for a broad variety of classes in competetive PVP. There are very few unique debuffs that make you want to bring class x or y, and the same is true of buffs. In rated Warzones you will be able to "Stack" whatever is most effective, far easier than you could in WoW. This is primarily because the diminishing return system favored bringing CC's from a variety of classes. That doesn't exist in TOR because all CC's hit essentially the same DR.

 

My stance is basically that if you are going to commit to the micro balance of rated warzones, you're not losing anything by allowing some kind of "Arena" system as well. Either way, you're going to have to adress these core structural issues in the classes.

 

So, since we get rated warzones, there's really no reason not to have rated arena. They both bring with them the same amount of micro balancing, class QQ and need for massive PVP improvements.

[Zimbles]

Arenas are terrible for a multitude of reasons.

 

1 - They create endless whining (yes even more than normal PvP) because to be any good they require different class balance to normal PvP, which given most games struggle to even balance that is just asking for trouble.

 

2 - They are too much rock/paper/scissors, some combos of classes/builds always ends up being far better, so a less skilled player in the right combo can beat a more skilled player in the wrong combo.

 

3 - Shallow gameplay, really arena is dull as it gets.

 

4 - No you don't need more co-ordination you need different co-ordination, if you ever manage to play a game with RvR that has objectives & a reasonably balanced battle (yes unlikely in SWTOR) you can accomplish a lot by proper co-ordination, which is at a level / type that is just not applicable in simplistic arenas.

 

5 - Alleged skill, MMORPGs are the lowest rung when it comes to PvP and skill (especially for DPS), really play a game that requires you to aim / parry / dodge not one that does everything for you if you don't want to brag about "skill" withotu being laughed out of town.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Zimbles

[BloatedGuppy]

Don't know how you jumped to that conclusion. I don't want this game to be like WoW, but I do want their to be a challenge pvp wise other than grinding a meaningless level to 60. I'm sorry but if you believe that arena wasn't a challenge in WoW (IN COMPARISON to the other things the game offered) then you are so anti-arena you're just blindly hating on it.

 

Anyway, comparing WoW arenas when thinking about arenas in this game is stupid. This isn't WoW, and taking the main problems from WoW's arena and working on them could even produce a great pvp system.

 

As for the challenge thing, I gathered from many posts in this thread: "PvPers are such a minority we shouldn't add anything competitive into this game because Bioware don't care about us, lets just be content with our meaningless WZ grinds and do some boring PvE" and this is the PvP forum.

 

But this game IS LIKE WoW. TOR is many things, but innovative is not one of them. This game is almost stubbornly anachronistic. In some way's that's good...it's like a comfortable old boot. But the same systemic problems that rendered Arena a laughingstock in WoW are evident here as well. It's NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

 

I'm not "blindly hating" on anything. I've been playing, and PvPing, in MMOs since the genre first popped up. I don't think WoW Arenas were the death of fun or anything, but they were a bad idea, badly implemented, and the people who keep promoting them as temples of skill are so wildly off base I'm actually breathless with amazement. It is, quite literally, like they've never played competitively at anything, ever. That's not "blind". That's just calling a spade a spade.

[Talkative]

Yes. They did say not doing it at all was an option, if they could do it over again.

 

A far cry from your trollish claims that they denounced arena entirely.

 

I'm not seeing where you think you check mated anything? You made a lie, I called you on it, and now you're trying to backpedal your way into saying you didn't claim "Blizz denounced arena".

 

Sorry bud. I can read, hopefully others can too.

You play on a PVE server. Opinions on PVP invalidated.

[EasymodeX]

So, since we get rated warzones, there's really no reason not to have rated arena. They both bring with them the same amount of micro balancing, class QQ and need for massive PVP improvements.

 

No.

 

Arenas are worse than Warzones are worse than open PvP.

 

Warzones already offer an instanced PvP format. No need to make it terribad with canned arena gimmicks. All it would do is further bleed population from WZs and Ilum. Pure negative.

[Dalindran]

Let's not prop it up TOO much. Remember when you could run around in a leather brassiere and a wizard's cap and be immune to fire? Or when magic missile would one-shot anyone in heavy armor?

 

UO was always too freakishly buggy to be a good example of fair, balanced PvP.

 

It was fun though!

 

Hmm that must have come later on. I only played UO from the pre-alpha test until about a year into it. I do remember bunnies slaughtering players in the alpha testing though.

 

My fondest pvp memories are still of UO and collecting the heads and gear of those I killed. The best part was pvping "hamstrung" as part of the original "Shadowclan Orcs" rp group at the "fort" and yet still kicking the tails of those we went up against. Man I miss those days.

 

Have fun !

Edited January 20, 2012 by Dalindran

[Caffinated]

It's a lot easier to call someone low skill if they don't have a way to prove otherwise.

 

You can't though. All you have are stats, and those stats don't really reflect what a person may or may not be doing to help their team.

 

It's easier to just get carried in warzones to get gear.

 

Disagree. In all arenas in WoW, it's far easier to find a very well geared team and get carried by them.

 

You have to use more abilities, and in some cases spec weird to be optimal.

 

Irrelevant.

 

You have to actually contribute.

 

Also irrelevant as you can get carried in areas just as easily as you can get carried in warzones.

 

You have to accept some people enjoy a different playstyle then you do.

 

Irrelevant. If you don't like how some people play, find other people to play with.

 

There is a possibility they might tweak your class (they are going to do this anyways).

 

Irrelevant. All classes are going to get tweaked. This has nothing to do with warzones vs. arenas.

 

You don't have the advantage of steamrolling pugs, there are none.

 

Irrelevant. Some arena teams will also be pugs.

 

If you don't like arenas you don't like them. But to say they shouldn't exist because you personally don't care for them is ridiculous. It is an aspect of a game, it's exclusion only polarizes a demographic Bioware is trying to keep.

 

Your statement makes no sense because arenas are not currently an aspect of the game.

[BloatedGuppy]

Well like it or not, they didn't claim arenas at all in WoW is a bad thing, which is what the majority of people who try to use that quote as a weapon tend to say.

 

I tend to agree that without massive changes to the game, arena won't work. But as I see it, the game needs massive changes anyway, so why not?

 

In all honesty though, if you're worried about micro balance in arenas, you should be worried about micro balance in Warzones. Right now, there is no incentive for a broad variety of classes in competetive PVP. There are very few unique debuffs that make you want to bring class x or y, and the same is true of buffs. In rated Warzones you will be able to "Stack" whatever is most effective, far easier than you could in WoW. This is primarily because the diminishing return system favored bringing CC's from a variety of classes. That doesn't exist in TOR because all CC's hit essentially the same DR.

 

My stance is basically that if you are going to commit to the micro balance of rated warzones, you're not losing anything by allowing some kind of "Arena" system as well. Either way, you're going to have to adress these core structural issues in the classes.

 

So, since we get rated warzones, there's really no reason not to have rated arena. They both bring with them the same amount of micro balancing, class QQ and need for massive PVP improvements.

 

Well, I'm not really WORRIED about it at all. I expect TOR's PvP to remain badly balanced, and messy. It doesn't mean it CAN'T BE FUN. Messy, silly PvP can still be fun, for what it is, just like Arenas could be fun, for what they were. I stated my arguments against Arenas back on page 2, and I stand by them.

 

I guess I just have different expectations for this game than everyone else. I knew what I was getting into, and messy, silly PvP neither surprises nor depresses me because it was exactly what I expected to see. It's like I was hoping for a sandwich, and I got a sandwich, and everyone else was hoping for a 10 course meal, and they're tearing their hair out, and I'm just enjoying my sandwich.

 

I'll say again, no one MMO is going to be all things to all people. I honestly do not understand when or how this mentality started that because we paid $50 for a box and $15 a month for content patches that suddenly we'll be able to play the game for 10,000 hours without getting bored, or exhausting content, and that every conceivable method of play in the world will be equally represented.

 

If I want an e-sport, I'll just go play Starcraft 2. That's what I bought it for.

[Rehash]

Please, dont put "arena" and "pvp" in same sentance. Its like calling "golf" a "martial art". It can be considered sport of a kind, but putting it with real athletic sports or even better combat arts or real warfare is a stretch beyond belief.

 

Arena is not "pvp" - arena is glorified mini game.

 

I turn OPs argument back on him - people wishing for "arena" are people that suck at real PvP. Notice how the people asking for arena are the same people whining about "hard targeting in swtor", "gimme healbot or i quit!" and "allow macros! skill is not about your reaction speed and twitch! its about decision making and planning!"

 

You people should understand by now, that majority of internet views you as nothing more than little kids obsessed with pointless minigame. You telling others "they hate arena because they suck at it" is like you claiming we dont care about kids Beyblade or toy car tournaments since we suck at the.

 

Arena is a refugee for people that dont want to play a MMO, not even a multiplayer game, a simple metagame that has nothing absolutely to do with game at hand - but want to claim they achieved something in it.

 

Notice that people are against "WOW" Arenas - not rated PvP as whole. I for example, think GW pvp was awesome, but WoW is plain horrible.

 

People comming to SWTOR forums and asking for "arena`s" just instantly reveal themself as two bads at ones "wow players" and "wow lolpvpers" loosing all respect in the argument before they even start (a final blow being mentioning their uber rating )

 

You don't even bother to back up your claim that Arenas aren't "real pvp" you just say it and start talking about something completely irrelevant to the discussion. If you think World PvP or poorly thought out warzones are "real pvp" then I don't think your argument would hold any water anyway.

[Vlaid]

You play on a PVE server. Opinions on PVP invalidated.

 

Want me to link you to the epic PVP taking place on PVP servers?

 

PVP Servers are not PVP. They are PVE servers where PVP players get together to abuse Illum.

[Redderic]

I LOVE ARENAS.

no matter what game actually pitting yourself against another person in a duel to the death is simply fun.

just because some people get really good at dueling as well does not mean they will do great in the WZs.

Arenas increase your ability to take down an opponent and helps learn how to fight different people better.

at the same time WZs increase peoples ability to work as a team to complete and objective.

 

world pvp is the odd one out which only increases peoples ability to run in a large group and gank lone stragglers. no matter which side both do this.

 

If they add them i would personally love it if they made an instanced zone where people could actually go and WATCH the fights.

we dont even have to get anything for fighting in arenas. in fact i would prefer not to get anything except maybe TITLES maybe it would be a great way to give out MERC COMMS.

just dont turn it into a grind like the grind to 60 valor already is.

then if people dont want to duel they dont have to but simply going there and watching other people duel may cause them to want to try it out.

 

hell take a note from UO GAMERS HYBRID which has a dueling system that takes up to teams of 3 or 5 i think. everyone can watch the duels which is great. OH AND ADD A BETTING SYSTEM SO WE CAN BET ON THE DUELS AS WELL!!!!

[Slovic]

I've gotten 2100+ with a few different comps as a lock back when 2100+ was actually good. Shadow/Afflic back in bc, Resto Druid/ Afflic in WotLK. Did it take skill? No. Was it a snooze fest? Yes. It was all about fighting against the right comps. It was "almost" never about skill. The only time skill comes into place is when you fight a mirror team with the same gear and same talent spec. Other than that its class/team rng grind fest. Was it fun? No. Was it easy gear? Yes.

[Vulm]

But this game IS LIKE WoW. TOR is many things, but innovative is not one of them. This game is almost stubbornly anachronistic. In some way's that's good...it's like a comfortable old boot. But the same systemic problems that rendered Arena a laughingstock in WoW are evident here as well. It's NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

 

I'm not "blindly hating" on anything. I've been playing, and PvPing, in MMOs since the genre first popped up. I don't think WoW Arenas were the death of fun or anything, but they were a bad idea, badly implemented, and the people who keep promoting them as temples of skill are so wildly off base I'm actually breathless with amazement. It is, quite literally, like they've never played competitively at anything, ever. That's not "blind". That's just calling a spade a spade.

 

But arenas in WoW did take skill (in terms of how much of a skill cap WoW offered). As you say, this game is alot like WoW, I agree. But arenas, or maybe even arenas with an objective is all that games like WoW and ToR can offer when it comes to players competing with one and other, there isn't much flexibility there.

 

Okay, so you've been playing MMOs since forever, maybe you've come across PvP systems that make arenas look laughable at best. It doesn't mean that games like WoW and ToR shouldn't have a competitive/rated game mode. Thats like saying an MMORPG like RuneScape shouldn't have anything competitive cause the game itself is "messy" and doesn't have a high skill cap.

 

Seems like you're putting me into your "elitist arena ***" category that you've developed over the years, when I hardly did arenas myself.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Vulm

[Talkative]

Want me to link you to the epic PVP taking place on PVP servers?

 

PVP Servers are not PVP. They are PVE servers where PVP players get together to abuse Illum.

Sounds like you're mad at yourself, bro.

 

Sorry about that.

[BloatedGuppy]

But arenas in WoW did take skill (in terms of how much of a skill cap WoW offered). As you say, this game is alot like WoW, I agree. But arenas, or maybe even arenas with an objective is all that games like WoW and ToR can offer when it comes to players competing with one and other, there isn't much flexibility there.

 

Okay, so you've been playing MMOs since forever, maybe you've come across PvP systems that make arenas look laughable at best. It doesn't mean that games like WoW and ToR shouldn't have a competitive/rated game mode. Thats like saying an MMORPG like RuneScape shouldn't have anything competitive cause the game itself is "messy" and doesn't have a high skill cap.

 

Well, you know. I think they shouldn't because of the reasons I listed way back near the beginning of this thread, not because I think they're god awful. Developer resources ARE a zero sum proposal, and I do think there are better, more productive areas to focus on for a game like this. I'd rather see some functional form of World PvP, more and varied War-Zones, a proper Valor system, etc, etc, before I'd go looking to stick in glorified duels.

 

So, if we can have everything? Sure, why not.

 

But I don't really do believe we can have everything. I think we need to pick and choose, so I'll leave the most problematic elements at the bottom of the pile.

[Quesa]

The problem with arenas is that since it's super competitive, class balance is extremely important, and I've never played an MMO where classes were very much balanced.

 

Therefore if you've got a weak class, you either have to suck it up and always be at a disadvantage, or reroll.

 

This is pretty much the main reason.

 

I believe the other reason is there is alot of resentment to those who have access to the best PvP gear over others in games where PvP is nearly all about gear and many times it's not really PvP but PvGear - and that's not good.