Vlaid Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) I hope they add arenas. It will shove a gigantic spotlight on balance problems that people can't dismiss with one ludicrous excuse or another. Arena statistics don't lie. Honestly, as long as arena doesn't reward superior gear, it's fine. I'd be thrilled if Arena was just the path to moddable/cosmetically customizable gear, titles, exclusive mounts and so on. Right now the biggest lay to claim you can make in PVP is "I'm valor rank x" and even that doesn't matter with the aoe kill trading and valor exploiters now. I think it's the most ridiculous idea in the world to want to PVP, but have no desire to get better, improve, or wish to see how you're doing. Why even PVP if you don't want to compete? It's silly. The people who don't want to arena don't have to. Edited January 20, 2012 by Vlaid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdnyc Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Arenas are just multiplayer dueling. Objective based Warzones require fighting and objectives. They are more complex than just multiplayer dueling. Besides that - the classes aren't balanced to face every other class on a solely one vs one situation. Builds inevitably will focus on having multiple players of the same class to maximize advantage. This puts ownership on BW to balance said class overall in the game. IE- Nerf. In a larger battle of 8+ where premades are only up to 4 right now, this is less of an issue. As there is no guarantee of a significant edge. With less people involved in the competition - the more important individual class balance will have on overall balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoogyboog Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Did you honestly forget the part where even the developers said that creating their arena system was one of the biggest mistakes they ever made? The only reason it still exists to this day is because you simply cannot "put the poopiez back into the goose". It is also probably the reason why no MMO since has ever bothered with it. Nuff said. Have fun ! Before you go posting misleading information, the dev only said it was a mistake because it's impossible to balance pve and pvp. Obviously WoW has a lot of children who enjoy pve carebearing around. You know what else Ron said? He said "if I can go back in time before the game shipped I would have either made serious changes to basic class balance to facilitate that type of play, or if I went back to when we had the idea two years later, I would have said, "Maybe we shouldn't go there." What part of that statement does he only say "oh its a crap idea." No he just admits balance is a problem which it is... HOWEVER that hasnt been a single season every single class was able to attain gladiator. Why? Because skill > gear The argument that entry level is too hard is flawed. It is EXTREMELY easy, especially now considering you can get weapons from honor, to rank up. I got 2200 on the said to be worst class in the game right now in honor blues from s9. Fact: people who complain about arena, suck at it and it hurt their epeens cause they arent slaying internet dragons for style points Fact: Swtor will never care about arena because it's like 1% of mmo population Fact: Guild Wars 2 is the most hyped up, and exciting mmo of 2012. There is a reason it is rated above swtor on every single gaming website. It is better. GW1 sucked, gw2 alpha client runs smoother than swtor. Keep complaing that you dont want arena and drive more players away from the game. Swtor has already lost probably half their subscribers before the first month. BTW when arenas came out in BC, they were INCREDIBLY popular, and to say they werent is just lying and misleading. I would love to see another interview with a wow dev now. Here would be my question... "whats your opinion on arena now after watching so many failed mmo launches and their inability to tap into the competitive pvp market?" There is a reason there is an arena competition at every blizzcon and people get paid to play arena. You don't get paid to play something thats unpopular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoogyboog Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 You mean Call of Duty kiddies? I'll agree with you. I'll also say the majority of players hated them. Maybe not the VAST majority, but 51% or more hated them. IMO, of course, but there it is. I did arena. And I hated arena. it's because you couldnt break 1500. I'm sorry, but bind your keys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlaid Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Besides that - the classes aren't balanced to face every other class on a solely one vs one situation. Builds inevitably will focus on having multiple players of the same class to maximize advantage. This puts ownership on BW to balance said class overall in the game. IE- Nerf. In a larger battle of 8+ where premades are only up to 4 right now, this is less of an issue. As there is no guarantee of a significant edge. With less people involved in the competition - the more important individual class balance will have on overall balance. Despite what people would have you believe, you can balance a class so it works in small scale and larger scale PVP. Putting the responsibility on BW to actually CARE about arena balance can only improve pvp. A lot of people will complain about WoW, but it's still the most balance MMORPG PVP. Because it forces you to actually SEE the small things that make classes too good or too weak. No other MMORPG has this without having some form of rated small scale PVP. Why you ask? Because you will never TRULY know how imbalanced small scale PVP is without arena. This is all a good thing. It gives players the tools to see what devs already know, and forces their hand to not just let class x get a free kill against class y, or let class a heal itself forever against class b because class b doesn't have a tool it needs to deal with them. I really dislike the way PVP works in this game, where if you run into a certain class/spec in small scale or 1v1, you might as well just afk until it's over unless they are terrible. Rock paper scissors is not a good PVP system to have. Like it or not, PVP a lot of times in Warzones is basically arena. When taking a node from 2 players with yourself and a friend, that's arena with a time limit. If you don't kill them/cc them correctly you will lose the time limit and fail to take the node. In this situation if Arena existed, those two classes would have an equal chance of killing the other two classes. But....because it is NOT, you might have something like a vanguard+healer defending forever against a couple sith warriors who can't seem to kill either player because they don't have enough damage to get the job done (as an example). Simply put, Arena FORCES people to see imbalances in PVP. It strips developers of the fog of war that clouds any PVP discussions and makes focused points impossible to find because it is so easy to dismiss ANYTHING if you don't have any kind of rated rankings/statistics to back up your claim of a class being too powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdnyc Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 gw2 alpha client runs smoother than swtor. careful with the NDA break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AntoniusDelitan Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) it's because you couldnt break 1500. I'm sorry, but bind your keys. Disc priest to 1950 first arena season before i quit for this game. get out. Edited January 20, 2012 by AntoniusDelitan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazyllama Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I love the constant Arena debate that goes on. Its always "the developers said they made a mistake putting in arena" which is both taken out of context and is from one guys mouth not the entire team. What he meant was that for his specific role he actually has to work in order to balance the game better, then just "Oh I am fighting a program that always does this, this, and this." Heaven forbid you have to polish the game that much. Besides if it came to polishing the game this one would definitely lose, I think it should be blatantly obvious if you were to choose between WoW and SWTOR who is more balanced and who's system is more ready for a competitive arena PvP environment. Honestly the ability lag/response time in this game alone takes most of the "skill/quick reaction" portion of the competition out of it. If they implemented an arena system by tomorrow I will tell you now most likely the top tier would be tank/healer and maybe some gimped out operative/operative combos. Other thing is targeting, I guess if you did 2 v 2 arena it would be a bit better and maybe 3 v 3, but the targeting in this game right now is horrendous. Whether you key bound it or click the current system in place is atrocious. This would also need to be ironed out. I would love arena in this game to be honest, but the more I play it, the more I realize how many blatant holes that exist now and that if I wanted to arena I should just cancel and go back to WoW where the game is actually developed into something. This game has a LONG way to go before arena should be implemented.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoogyboog Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Disc priest to 1950 first arena season before i quit for this game. get out. it's easy to say that on a forum with 0 proof lol... I wouldnt have fun in arena though if I couldnt break 2200 so I can see where you're coming from now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabbathius Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Short version? Most people suck in PvP. Long version: Arenas are a highly controlled environment. I'm talking WoW perspective here. Some abilities (really long CD ones) are disabled, some consummables are disabled, etc. This reduces the possibility of one player using the best, most expensive consummables and winning on that alone. Gear isn't a factor - halfway through Season 2 in WoW everyone wore more or less the same gear. The "real PvPerz" like to win by having a huge gear advantage. Which is nullified in Arena. Nobody to blame - most "leet PvPerz" like to toss blame on their teammates. But when in a 2v2 (or, god forbid, 1v1) arena, or even 3v3 or even 5v5, it's really hard to blame anyone because your own ineptitude often stands out pretty glaringly. Add all of these together, and that's why people hate arenas. It's much easier to piggyback on other people and stroke your own ego as you stomp lesser geared, lower level people while using best consummables possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlaid Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 careful with the NDA break. Another company's NDA has no power on a forum they don't control. People talk about NDA stuff all the time, as long as it's not on the developer's forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternalFinality Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 WoW devs admitted their biggest mistake was adding arenas to their game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdnyc Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Despite what people would have you believe, you can balance a class so it works in small scale and larger scale PVP. No you can't. Not while retaining PvE balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoogyboog Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 WoW devs admitted their biggest mistake was adding arenas to their game. Exactly what was said ""If I could go back in time before we shipped WoW, I would have either made serious changes to basic class balance to facilitate that type of play, or if I went back to when we had the idea two years later, I would have said, "Maybe we shouldn't go there."" learn to read. quit pulling **** out of context and type a search into google. You're just making your side look stupid on the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdnyc Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) Another company's NDA has no power on a forum they don't control. People talk about NDA stuff all the time, as long as it's not on the developer's forums. You have no idea what you're talking about. A NDA is a legally binding agreement that can/will get you sued for breaking. Edited January 20, 2012 by jdnyc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iceperson Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Balancing an MMO around duels and rewarding players the best gear in the game for dueling is just silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlaid Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 No you can't. Not while retaining PvE balance. Really? I'm pretty sure in WoW every class in the game can get 2800+ AND is functional in a rated battleground. Some have to work slightly harder than others, but it's possible with every class. Some are slightly more powerful in one or the other, but it balances out overall. And there is no PVE balance without a combat log, damage meters, threat meters and better parsing support. It's just random killing NPC's until then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlaid Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) You have no idea what you're talking about. A NDA is a legally binding agreement that can/will get you sued for breaking. Go find me someone who's been sued for saying something while under NDA on a forum not related to their game. Please. Especially some random half-comment on a forum that reveals nothing about the game. Funny thing is you can find tons of GW2 videos on youtube (ones not from game shows) even with this supposed iron clad NDA that will get you sued. Edited January 20, 2012 by Vlaid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdnyc Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Really? I'm pretty sure in WoW every class in the game can get 2800+ AND is functional in a rated battleground. Some have to work slightly harder than others, but it's possible with every class. Some are slightly more powerful in one or the other, but it balances out overall. And there is no PVE balance without a combat log, damage meters, threat meters and better parsing support. It's just random killing NPC's until then. You are wrong again! LOL. Blizz denounced Arenas because of PvE balance. Thousands of players QQed and quit over changes made to their classes because of Arenas. Just wow. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AntoniusDelitan Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 it's easy to say that on a forum with 0 proof lol... I wouldnt have fun in arena though if I couldnt break 2200 so I can see where you're coming from now. Is your free month over yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlaid Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 You are wrong again! LOL. Blizz denounced Arenas because of PvE balance. Thousands of players QQed and quit over changes made to their classes because of Arenas. Just wow. LOL There's cry babies everywhere. PVE is fine, PVP is fine. People are just emotional and can't handle small changes. And Blizz didn't denounce arena, go back and actually read the quote yourself. I doubt you've ever even read the original quote you're referring to. Just spouting ignorant garbage you have no first hand experience or knowledge of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdnyc Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Go find me someone who's been sued for saying something while under NDA on a forum not related to their game. Please. Especially some random half-comment on a forum that reveals nothing about the game. Funny thing is you can find tons of GW2 videos on youtube (ones not from game shows) even with this supposed iron clad NDA that will get you sued. There are no leaked Alpha GW2 videos on youtube. I assure you. You're so full of it on every level. Your eyes must even be completely brown. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iceperson Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I'm glad BW has seen what arena trolls do to a game and doesn't want any part of them. If you think arena was the greatest thing to happen to MMOs then this isn't the game for you. No one wants you here, not even the devs. buh bye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EasymodeX Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Why people hate arenas Arenas are terrible. 1. Duels are ok as a random casual event. Duels are susceptible to a plethora of very specific imbalances between classes. Arenas are over-sized duels. 2. Due to the very small set of options (4 players in a 4v4 format for SWTOR), Arenas would be very gimmicky with only certain classes represented in very specific strategies. Much like WoW arenas. At the end of the day, Arenas try to boil down PvP into PvE -- into a scripted, predictable fight so that the combat makes sense for e-sport commentary. The disadvantage is that a "BIG" arena focus takes away from Warzones and open PvP. Warzones already take away from open PvP, but the open PvP is so terribad in this game (no surprise), that I don't think people care much. Taking away from a much more dynamic PvP format (Warzones) in order to support a narrower and less flexible ... and to be honest more boring PvP format (Arena) seems like a bad decision. It is an aspect of a game, it's exclusion only polarizes a demographic Bioware is trying to keep. Pretty sure the demographic for arenas is smaller than the demographic for PvP which is smaller than the demographic for PvE. So I'm pretty sure BioWare has arenas as a relatively low priority, all things considered. Agreed. Arenas are a "canned hunt", warzones are in the least a microcosm of world pvp with an objective which makes them somewhat tolerable. ^ This. Like it or not, PVP a lot of times in Warzones is basically arena. When taking a node from 2 players with yourself and a friend, that's arena with a time limit. If you don't kill them/cc them correctly you will lose the time limit and fail to take the node. In this situation if Arena existed, those two classes would have an equal chance of killing the other two classes. But....because it is NOT, you might have something like a vanguard+healer defending forever against a couple sith warriors who can't seem to kill either player because they don't have enough damage to get the job done (as an example). Simply put, Arena FORCES people to see imbalances in PVP. It strips developers of the fog of war that clouds any PVP discussions and makes focused points impossible to find because it is so easy to dismiss ANYTHING if you don't have any kind of rated rankings/statistics to back up your claim of a class being too powerful. You're halfway to the right answer but then you veer off course. - PvP in Warzones is, indeed, a "lot of times kind of like arena" ... except each instance is different. 2v2 arena with a time limit. 2v2 arena with a red buff. 2v2 arena with one side defending a node and the other side attacking it. 1v2 arena. 3v3 arena. 2v3 arena, 3v2 arena. 1v3 arena with reinforcements on the way. You see, in a single Warzone there are 100 different "arena-like events" that take place. QED: Warzones are way more dynamic and variable than arenas. Imbalances in PvP exist in all strata and in different situations. The issue with arena is that you are repeatedly presented with the exact same context. This does not "force people to see the imbalances" -- it repeatedly presents the exact same imbalances over and over again. In a "fog of war" Warzone, there are a thousand different conditions that may be present that highlight different imbalances. Easy example: in Huttball, knockbacks. In Voidstar, stealth. In Alderaan, durability / survivability to hold the side points. You even saw this in WoW with the different arena map layouts. Certain layouts made stealth twice half as effective, or made LOSing retardedly easy, or difficult. Even in arena, you have imbalances highlighted by the context of the terrain. In Warzones, you have ten thousand other variations of context. Get good at PvP. Deal with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdnyc Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Just spouting ignorant garbage you have no first hand experience or knowledge of. The most accurate description of yourself I can think of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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