PvP 'DPS' Immortal Build 32/7/2

[Schwarzwald]

Why roll a tank or a healer to play as a DPS? I keep having the same unanswered question in so many games...

Anyway, nice guide, considerable effort put into creating this.

 

I have a Jugg alt that just went 50 and plan on using him as a tank in PvP (I don't PvE), still this guide is nice, even for Jugs that want to play as a tank. I am using an Immortal based spec (27/14/0) and I was wondering if you have any advice about gear (for max survivability).

 

How does defense fare vs shield chance+absorb? Always talking about PvP. I know defense and shield don't work that great in PvP, but they still work and I know on which dmg types, etc each one applies. So, between defense and shield+absorb... do you think a balanced approach is the best or what?

 

As to the first part, Yeah, I see too many people wanting to be like some Mortal strike warrior death machine from wow. I view the different skill trees for juggernaut in a pretty simple way, by looking at what the tree offers in terms of Control/Defense/Offense.

 

Immortal - 2stuns, spammable aoe slow, reduced CDs on key mobility abilities / Invincible, Some added Defense, Sonic Barrier, Soresu Form Rage generation skills / Crushing Blow, Backhand, Controlled DMG Rotations w/ stuns

 

Vengeance - No added Control besides reduced CD on AoE incap (big woop) / Unstoppable (situational, not sustained, thus not very good), Reduced DMG (4% reduction is meh compared to being in soresu, and your rage generation will be crap if you go into soresu), Increased Stam (its okay, added defense is still situational and benefiting from it will break your dmg) / Impale, Shatter, Dots (all of these are meh and require that you be on your target constantly to have the SUSTAINED dmg that vengeance is geared towards)

 

Rage - Nothing besides a 'slow' that lasts 4 seconds / nothing / LOLSMASH

 

Immortal allows you to stay in the fight the longest, allows all of your defensive abilities to be active WHILE dpsing and with proper CD management and rotations you can put out faster burst then Vengeance (the damage from vengeace doesn't kick in until the dots are applied and sustained, this is not optimal for a PvP environment)

 

The point of this spec isn't just for the damage. Its that it offers control. And Control is the most important factor in PvP. Control > Damage in nearly every situation when group play is involved, and having the ability to do damage while controlling is why that Tank/DPS hybrid aspect of this build is so appealing.

 

If you were going to stack a defensive stat I would go with pure shield absorption due to the greater number of abilities that it procs off of, but the itemization for this is lousy and not really worth it at the current time.

[Schwarzwald]

@ OP,

 

I have read over all the information you have provided on this spec and the style of play but as for leveling a Jug, what would you suggest? Trying to level in the "tanking" tree while still doing PvP is probably the most painful event I've done in some time.

 

Thanks!

 

What ever you want. Unless you wanted to spend some of your time practicing rotations and playstyles while leveling, then you can go what ever build you want to. I leveled as Immortal in beta and then in live I leveled as Vengeance and still felt vengeance was very lack luster for PvP.

 

If you wanted to roll tank while leveling, bring a DPS companion, I liked Vette when I was in beta, but things may have changed. Swap to quinn if you have a hard timeon a fight.

 

But I leveled as Vengeance w/ Quinn the whole time during live launch this time around.

[FriarChuggs]

Your build is great, and the guide is great, but I think there is one talent point you should move.

 

You should take one of your points from Quake and move it to Revenge.

 

First, accuracy has questionable impact in PvP to begin with.

 

Second, the Quake debuff is loonger than your Smash cooldown, so you don't need to proc a Quake every time you Smash to have it up most of the time.

 

Third, MOAR RAGE IS GUD. Especially when it is likely to proc throughout the fight, rather than frontload when you're heavy on rage from saber/charge.

[Schwarzwald]

Your build is great, and the guide is great, but I think there is one talent point you should move.

 

You should take one of your points from Quake and move it to Revenge.

 

First, accuracy has questionable impact in PvP to begin with.

 

Second, the Quake debuff is loonger than your Smash cooldown, so you don't need to proc a Quake every time you Smash to have it up most of the time.

 

Third, MOAR RAGE IS GUD. Especially when it is likely to proc throughout the fight, rather than frontload when you're heavy on rage from saber/charge.

 

During combat you always want to have more the 2 rage but never get completely capped. With Lashout I find myself getting capped too frequently, its sort of a min maxing thing.

[Actua]

I'm not sure what's the hate on the Rage tree is coming from, or on any Juggernaut wanting to DPS.

 

Rage: You talk about group play. Rage has alot more potential for group play then you seem to think. In any given organised PvP, healers are abound, and dealing with them effectively usually makes or breaks the game.

 

What Rage can do for your team is land huge spikes of damage on multiple players, which is living hell for a healer. Given that you have teamates helping out and focusing someone else, you can easily make the healer spazz out.

 

What if I'm Smashing the ball carrier and 2 other people as well? The healer has to choose, either save the carrier or the supporters: either way, he cannot keep up with everyone. I've PvPed with another Rage Marauder, and *** are healers supposed to do when 2,3,4,5 or more people take 10k hits to the face simultanously?

 

Saying that Rage is only a LOL SMASH build thats only good for damage meters is uninformed. Plus you get armor penetration for tough targets, and force crush, which is a very nice snare and damage which should be used for other things than just damage.

 

Vengeance: probably a bad idea to use shatter in PvP, havent really tested it, but I've played a an Impale/obliterate build and it demolishes people in single target damage. Again, you might be stunning healers and whatnot, but a well played vengeance jugg will make sure healers do nothing else than try to save themselves.

 

I've played full immortal, and it's good for all the reasons you listed.

 

Dismissing the potential of other trees, though, is a bit hasty. You can still stance dance and guard/taunt whoever you want in any tree (which every Jugg should be doing).

 

And yes I'm BM as well.

[Atzel]

I dont like Crushing Blow at all.

I didnt read all the posts from above but imo its way way better to spec more into venguance tree and get some perfect pvp feats like Unstopable and Pooled Hatred.

For example you have few feats that (imo) are useless like Revenge ? ( you already have Battle Cry ) Sweeping Fury ? Such a waste of 3 points. Like i said earlier , Crushing blow is bad in my eyes , too much rage for crap dmg and armor stacks... PVE feat to stack armor reduction on boses -.-

 

Anyway i am not BM here is a pic of getting 300k medal for example

http://imageshack.us/f/444/tablegr.png/

 

This is clearly a random pug , which means that i dont relly on good team and i always charge first because i got baws!

[Elysion]

Why not tank set with dps mods? Seems as tank set has better set bonuses. Edited February 7, 2012 by Elysion

[JackTyler]

As a juggernaut who is fully immortal specced I can assure you that I do a fantastic amount of dmg. And being specced that way I can take all the abuse in the world as along as I have a healer on me. In my guild we have a dedicated healer and when he's with me were near enough invincible. I just put guard on him and with that do 5% more damage because of my champion gear. Anyone who doesn't realise how good immortal is, is clearly blind.

[Schwarzwald]

I'm not sure what's the hate on the Rage tree is coming from, or on any Juggernaut wanting to DPS.

 

Rage: You talk about group play. Rage has alot more potential for group play then you seem to think. In any given organised PvP, healers are abound, and dealing with them effectively usually makes or breaks the game.

 

What Rage can do for your team is land huge spikes of damage on multiple players, which is living hell for a healer. Given that you have teamates helping out and focusing someone else, you can easily make the healer spazz out.

 

What if I'm Smashing the ball carrier and 2 other people as well? The healer has to choose, either save the carrier or the supporters: either way, he cannot keep up with everyone. I've PvPed with another Rage Marauder, and *** are healers supposed to do when 2,3,4,5 or more people take 10k hits to the face simultanously?

 

Saying that Rage is only a LOL SMASH build thats only good for damage meters is uninformed. Plus you get armor penetration for tough targets, and force crush, which is a very nice snare and damage which should be used for other things than just damage.

 

Vengeance: probably a bad idea to use shatter in PvP, havent really tested it, but I've played a an Impale/obliterate build and it demolishes people in single target damage. Again, you might be stunning healers and whatnot, but a well played vengeance jugg will make sure healers do nothing else than try to save themselves.

 

I've played full immortal, and it's good for all the reasons you listed.

 

Dismissing the potential of other trees, though, is a bit hasty. You can still stance dance and guard/taunt whoever you want in any tree (which every Jugg should be doing).

 

And yes I'm BM as well.

 

You have to understand how I consider group viability and where the juggernaut fits into the most optimized spot he can be in.

 

1. Other classes will beat Juggernauts on DPS any day and do it much quicker and more efficiently. A sorc w/ deathfield is alot more precise and quicker when they deal their damage. The Melee requirement on smash just makes it really inconvenient compared to ranged dps.

 

2. Control > DPS. The snare from Rage offers no control IMO. You may think it does, but when you compare it to backhand and a non channeled force choke its nothing.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Schwarzwald

[Schwarzwald]

I dont like Crushing Blow at all.

I didnt read all the posts from above but imo its way way better to spec more into venguance tree and get some perfect pvp feats like Unstopable and Pooled Hatred.

For example you have few feats that (imo) are useless like Revenge ? ( you already have Battle Cry ) Sweeping Fury ? Such a waste of 3 points. Like i said earlier , Crushing blow is bad in my eyes , too much rage for crap dmg and armor stacks... PVE feat to stack armor reduction on boses -.-

 

Anyway i am not BM here is a pic of getting 300k medal for example

http://imageshack.us/f/444/tablegr.png/

 

This is clearly a random pug , which means that i dont relly on good team and i always charge first because i got baws!

 

What are you talking about?

 

Okay #1. Crushing Blow is good damage and HITS (not a crit) for 2k for me against light armor in full Champs/BM gear. Crushing Blow is not the centerpiece of this build, the stuns are, so just getting Crushing Blow along the way is icing on the cake.

 

2. The point in revenge is just a filler point. But its the best filler point along the way because you will most likely used that saved rage on a smash. Its minute, but its better then 1% shield chance and happens more frequently.

 

3. Sweeping Fury is amazing, if you disagree then you have not read the entire Skill. Its the rage generation that makes the ability great. Getting sweeping fury ensures that you will never get rage starved while in Soresu. The 2nd part of the ability is meh, but it smostly the 3 second increased frequency is why you are getting the skill and not for the Sweeping slash improvements. (although sweeping slash is an idea ability to use w/ 3+ people infront of you, Mine hit for 800-1200 on each target. multiply that by 3 and you got some good damage.

[ClaudeTaylor]

Are you still using this build? If so are you liking it as much as you did when you posted this?

[ClaudeTaylor]

also i would love to know what stats you choose when getting your gear like more strength than endurance or the other way around?

[deckatre]

Interesting take on the Immortal PvP Tank, and definitely a very opinionated OP.. Although it helps when you aren't going cookie cutter and post a guide on the forums. I am more interested in the choices you made through the Immortal tree. I won't criticize the build since I have not seen actual effectiveness (aka me actually respecing to play it) but I will say that it looks like this build you have posted is not the only way to go about this. I do have a question though. I'm trying to understand 100% the purpose of this build. From the read you said you want to play multiple roles, is it primarily Tank or CC?Or are you just trying to find an equal balance between tank, dps, and cc? Maybe off putting it with a focus on CC and then an equal secondary focus on dps and protection?

[Dracosz]

Hey guys, just weighing in here with some thoughts on the build.

 

It's a fantastic build and it absolutely does everything the OP says that it can do in group play. That last bit is important, this isn't a spec you can go in as solo queue as you need a team that can play around it's strengths and it's weaknesses (which are many).

 

As much as I've enjoyed the spec though, the biggest problem with it is that if you're already queueing with a tank (or two), then your contribution ends up being almost minimal. Yes, the OP is right, as a juggernaut you do significantly less single-target DPS than say a BH or even an assassin (Good assassins deal a ****ton of damage). If you're queueing right, you're queueing with at least one other tank already and the other two tanks (shadow/powertech) are strictly better than juggs in most situations barring huttball shenanigans. In short, Other classes can provide the control that's needed better than an immortal juggernaut and our contribution ends up being moot. Still, it was fun enough that I'll make a video sometime next week to showcase the spec in full swing.

 

 

As for the OP's points about Rage, yes, it can be seen and it can be avoided, but in reality it's not AS easy as it sounds. Good juggernauts will know exactly when and how to drop their smash bombs and position them such that they will hit as many players as possible (such as I, myself have done). I think that rage is fully viable and while it can be boring, it's got a lot of potential in the right group. Vengeance too does really well but it suffers from the unfortunate nature of a horrible ramp-up which rage really doesn't have to worry about as much (since crush ticks generate quickly and you have choke).

 

Note: Optimally as rage/vengeance, I like to queue with an assassin tank, a BH healer and a hybrid op healer. The hybrid op is the key as they can stunlock very well whilst keeping up significant damage on the player that you're trying to take down. As the immortal dps spec, I queued with a pyro PT, an assassin tank and the op healer.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Dracosz

[GrandChampXX]

As a juggernaut who is fully immortal specced I can assure you that I do a fantastic amount of dmg. And being specced that way I can take all the abuse in the world as along as I have a healer on me. In my guild we have a dedicated healer and when he's with me were near enough invincible. I just put guard on him and with that do 5% more damage because of my champion gear. Anyone who doesn't realise how good immortal is, is clearly blind.

 

Uhhh do you have any IDEA how dumb you sound? Any class with a dedicated healer can be invincible.

[Schwarzwald]

Hey guys, just weighing in here with some thoughts on the build.

 

It's a fantastic build and it absolutely does everything the OP says that it can do in group play. That last bit is important, this isn't a spec you can go in as solo queue as you need a team that can play around it's strengths and it's weaknesses (which are many).

 

As much as I've enjoyed the spec though, the biggest problem with it is that if you're already queueing with a tank (or two), then your contribution ends up being almost minimal. Yes, the OP is right, as a juggernaut you do significantly less single-target DPS than say a BH or even an assassin (Good assassins deal a ****ton of damage). If you're queueing right, you're queueing with at least one other tank already and the other two tanks (shadow/powertech) are strictly better than juggs in most situations barring huttball shenanigans. In short, Other classes can provide the control that's needed better than an immortal juggernaut and our contribution ends up being moot. Still, it was fun enough that I'll make a video sometime next week to showcase the spec in full swing.

 

 

As for the OP's points about Rage, yes, it can be seen and it can be avoided, but in reality it's not AS easy as it sounds. Good juggernauts will know exactly when and how to drop their smash bombs and position them such that they will hit as many players as possible (such as I, myself have done). I think that rage is fully viable and while it can be boring, it's got a lot of potential in the right group. Vengeance too does really well but it suffers from the unfortunate nature of a horrible ramp-up which rage really doesn't have to worry about as much (since crush ticks generate quickly and you have choke).

 

Note: Optimally as rage/vengeance, I like to queue with an assassin tank, a BH healer and a hybrid op healer. The hybrid op is the key as they can stunlock very well whilst keeping up significant damage on the player that you're trying to take down. As the immortal dps spec, I queued with a pyro PT, an assassin tank and the op healer.

 

Just weighing in, I usually play with 2 Sorcs and a BH healer more often then not. Or its 1 assassin, 1 sorc dps, 1 sorc healer.

[Schwarzwald]

Are you still using this build? If so are you liking it as much as you did when you posted this?

 

Yes, this is still my main pvp build.

 

FOr your 2nd question, get offensive stats. Think Vindicators sets.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Schwarzwald

[Hptmakira]

Enjoying the build, any thoughts of updates on the shield vs offensive offhand?

[sithkllr]

Immortal is a joke. You do no damage. You're a sponge. You can be a better sponge anyways as Vengeance while actually having damage.

 

Umm no. Please show me a Vengeance build (that means 31 pts or more in Vengeance) that provides more mitigaiton and survivability than Immortal.

 

This should be good.

Edited February 10, 2012 by sithkllr

[dcjoker]

Umm no. Please show me a Vengeance build (that means 31 pts or more in Vengeance) that provides more mitigaiton and survivability than Immortal.

 

This should be good.

 

Actually if you pvp'd at all you'd know that vengeance does mitigate damage far better than immortal. Even the 31 version, and especially the 14/27 version.

[sithkllr]

Actually if you pvp'd at all you'd know that vengeance does mitigate damage far better than immortal. Even the 31 version, and especially the 14/27 version.

 

Oh yeah thats prolly why Vengeance is the tanking spec.

[sithkllr]

Uhhh do you have any IDEA how dumb you sound? Any class with a dedicated healer can be invincible.

 

Wow. If you really beleive this I am dumbfounded.

[dcjoker]

Oh yeah thats prolly why Vengeance is the tanking spec.

 

It is. A lot of people tank as 14/27. Immortal may be bw's intended tank tree but they sure put aome of the best tanking talents in vengeance.

 

Have you actually looked at the talents in immortal in terms of actual pvp mitigation?

[dcjoker]

Wow. If you really beleive this I am dumb.

 

ftfy

 

Btw he's right to extent.

[sithkllr]

It is. A lot of people tank as 14/27. Immortal may be bw's intended tank tree but they sure put aome of the best tanking talents in vengeance.

 

Have you actually looked at the talents in immortal in terms of actual pvp mitigation?

 

Yes. No Dark Blood, no Sonic Barrier, no Shield Specialization = crap tank. Srsly, whats the point? Huddle and Defening Defense are no replacement.

Edited February 10, 2012 by sithkllr