Merlict Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Good post. MMOs continue to cater to these players and continue to fail because of it. I'm not saying current wow pvp is fun, balanced or fair, but it is pretty easy to get geared up to a competitive level Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tirrexx Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Same incompetents game developers from MMO to MMO....They dont learn from their past mistake = fail game. Like the new level 50 pvp bracket....it doesn t take a genius for to see long queue if the change is implemented whit no cross server q........ really..... anyone from Bioware have seen that coming???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KhealThar Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) If you want PVP that is actually good, wait for Guild Wars 2. SWTOR is just a fun game to mess around with friends. Edited January 20, 2012 by KhealThar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tikume Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Same incompetents game developers from MMO to MMO....They dont learn from their past mistake = fail game. Like the new level 50 pvp bracket....it doesn t take a genius for to see long queue if the change is implemented whit no cross server q........ really..... anyone from Bioware have seen that coming???? just crossed my mind, since Empire has more players on virtually ALL servers we would get 99% Huttball with crosserver warzones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xsorus Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) Look, Obvious WoW players talking about MMO progression. Bloody hell, Yes.. in MMO's you might actually be at a disadvantage on a new character vs someone who's played a character for a while. lets see what games were like that? Oh wait.. all of them.. DAOC, Fresh 50.. RR1, was at huge disadvantage to RR10 players WoW, Fresh 60, huge disadvantage to every other player with PvP gear Same with Rift, AoC, EQ, pretty much every MMO in existence.. Some people don't seem to grasp the concept of how RPG's actually work, let alone how an MMORPG works. I could only imagine how the old Final Fantasy RPG's would of been if they were MMO's "I just hit level 20, and this level 99 just cast ultima on me, and killed me.. QQ" Edited January 20, 2012 by Xsorus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almghty_gir Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=201843 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pashgan Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) Good post. And yes - this is fun when the same guy who failed Warhammer hired to fail Bioware's game. Edited January 20, 2012 by Pashgan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xsorus Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=201843 Moronic post. Anyone who advocates removing the PvP stat clearly doesn't grasp the concept of PvP and while it will not have any effect on the end situation. This is with a fairly tame PvP stat at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Istvar Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 lol the excuses never stop coming.... i only lost cause that jerk doesn't have a job/friends/private life.... i only lost because that guy has better gear than me... i only lost because the game's devs suck and can't make proper pvp that i can win in... warhammer was maybe commercially a flop but by no means was it;s pvp bad. i rerolled multiple times in that game and even without gear always managed to be competetive. you guys don't want to put in the time/ effort to get gear or learn how to play your class? well *********** deal with the fact that you will lose than and stop blaming everything else for your suck.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almghty_gir Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Moronic post. Anyone who advocates removing the PvP stat clearly doesn't grasp the concept of PvP and while it will not have any effect on the end situation. This is with a fairly tame PvP stat at that. lol... okay i'll bite. anyone who advocates keeping a pvp stat clearly doesn't grasp the concept of pvp, especially since they didn't real the alternative that would work better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teacosy Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 difference between BM gear and Champion gear isnt even that big. not like it was in WAR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almghty_gir Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 difference between BM gear and Champion gear isnt even that big. not like it was in WAR. the difference in stats (not including expertise) between basic level 49/50 gear and battlemaster gear isn't even that big. the difference in expertise is. and it breaks pvp, full stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Istvar Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 the whole "pvp should be about skill not gear" argument so many ppl bring up seems to be only brought up by ppl that don;t have "the skill" to begin with, gear helps and thats about it. it's not a guaranteed insta win and the guy that just wiped the floor with your *** didn;t do so because you were the better and more "skilled" player, just wake up to yourselves ppl lol. news flash: if u suck at playing your class you will still suck at it in better gear! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almghty_gir Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 the whole "pvp should be about skill not gear" argument so many ppl bring up seems to be only brought up by ppl that don;t have "the skill" to begin with, gear helps and thats about it. it's not a guaranteed insta win and the guy that just wiped the floor with your *** didn;t do so because you were the better and more "skilled" player, just wake up to yourselves ppl lol. news flash: if u suck at playing your class you will still suck at it in better gear! absolutely, i completely agree. so why do so many "pro" pvp players insist that a pvp stat is needed to help them beat pve raiders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilthor Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I like how no one posts actual tangible solutions. I don't know about you but when I've played my character for a while I want to be able to get better stuff. The problem isn't that there is better stuff its just that its way to easy to get. I never had issues with being level 40 with non high renown gear because a lot of it was harder to get than this crap, you actually had to roll against a crap ton of people just to get a back to then roll on a piece again. You people need to quit making hapless complaints and maybe suggest ways to fix it. Mine is simple make gear harder to get and make more gear options. Make true open world PvP happen similar to what WAR did. I enjoyed getting my realm together and pushing through areas, and again it was frustrating when one side was imbalanced and over played. The favorite side switched a lot in warhammer and it will in this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almghty_gir Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I like how no one posts actual tangible solutions. I don't know about you but when I've played my character for a while I want to be able to get better stuff. The problem isn't that there is better stuff its just that its way to easy to get. I never had issues with being level 40 with non high renown gear because a lot of it was harder to get than this crap, you actually had to roll against a crap ton of people just to get a back to then roll on a piece again. You people need to quit making hapless complaints and maybe suggest ways to fix it. Mine is simple make gear harder to get and make more gear options. Make true open world PvP happen similar to what WAR did. I enjoyed getting my realm together and pushing through areas, and again it was frustrating when one side was imbalanced and over played. The favorite side switched a lot in warhammer and it will in this game. man, i remember those days. i was the second full sovereign disciple of khaine IN THE WORLD, i was also part of the worlds first king kill back when dragonback mountains were still open... i wasn't one of the world, continent, or even countries first rr80's though, i took my time getting there, i enjoyed it a lot. i remember having to rally the entire realm to push for the fort, and then for the city, and then coordinate different city instances to try and get to stage 2, and then to get to stage 3... i remember it all, it was AWESOME. but it was also frustrating... anyway... wall of text incoming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raeyk Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Don't compare warhammer's pvp to the pvp in this game. Warhammer at it's worst was 100 times better than the pvp in swtor. Granted this game has a better story, but how many times can you listen to the sidequests before you turn off the voice acting scenes and play it like every other mmo you've played. Actually, if you don't believe me, go try the free trial of warhammer and see for yourself that even only tier one is better than the pvp in this entire game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Istvar Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 absolutely, i completely agree. so why do so many "pro" pvp players insist that a pvp stat is needed to help them beat pve raiders? because pvp always has been and always will be about min/maxing. is the expertise the deciding factor in who wins a fight? no. does it give an advantage? yes... i agree with you, if you wanted to pvp for the sake of pvp you'd welcome the challenge of even footing alas the pvp comunity these days ain't about enjoying pvp or looking for a challenge, it;s all about epeen now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almghty_gir Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 this is a selection of ideas that both i and others have come up with that could help with the problems that exist in the game. they are by no means a "one tool fixes everything", and certainly they are just a starting point to go on. so let's start with the current problems, some are fixable, others aren't... this is a two faction game - this cannot be fixed, it's way too late to change it, and it will be there forever... if you don't like that, there are other games that are different. find them.there are population imbalances - due to being a two faction game, this will always be apparent, whether the difference is large or small depends largely on the playerbase but there are things Bioware can do to remedy it somewhat.faction pride - because you can roll both factions on the same server, the majority of players will feel very little pride in their own faction, there is no ownership or accountability. if you don't like how things are going... just alt on the other faction for a while! rather than actually try to push the rest of your faction to rally together.the powerful get more powerful - currently due to game mechanics, the dominant faction has an easier time becoming more powerful, this has the knock on effect of making the underdog side feel even less inclined to compete... why compete when you're almost certain to lose, right?pvp stats - a controvertial issue to be sure, many people feel it's necessary, many feel the opposite, we can explore it but it's doubtful that there will ever be a solution that everybody likes. sometimes the minority might have to tip it's head to the majority.vertical progression - intrinsically tied into MMO's nowadays, especially ones that heavily involve pve content, is vertical progression... this is due to the mindset of most players that they simply "want bigger numbers". this is something that is quite possibly the biggest problem in PVP in any game, and always will be. so let's tackle each issue one at a time, make some sense of it, and see what we can do to potentially solve the issue. 1. two faction game. As i stated above, this will not change, it's too late to even think about it, sorry... however it is heavily tied into... 2. population imbalance. Because this is a two faction game, one side will invariably outnumber the other. there are a few things that the developer can do to remedy the issue, such as imposing hard-caps on server factions, giving bonuses to the underdog faction, give penalties to the overpopulated faction, imposing instance limits per faction. but ultimately it all comes down to the players choice. regardless of anything the developer does, it's the player who makes the choice to roll on either faction. 3. cross faction players. the ability to roll both factions on the same server is the most detrimental thing in any pvp game. it promotes "spying", and it also dissolves any form of "faction pride" that could ever have existed. it results in a fractured community of players who neither trust each other, or even in some cases want to even talk to each other. it makes organising the underdog realm very difficult as any potential gathering could be leaked to the dominating faction with disasterous results. 4. the great snowball. this actually ties three things in together, each one is bad on it's own but when combined they make for a snowball that just gets bigger and bigger until it becomes unmanageable. it's sad to say that we're almost at that point already! but what are those three things? pvp statsvertical progressionimbalanced populations we've already covered population imbalance to a degree, but in this context it's important to note that due to current game mechanics, the overpopulated realm is just reaping huge rewards with little penalty. they're able to capture and hold all the objectives, whilst simultaniously dominate the underdog faction due to pure numbers, on top of all this, when (for example) 40 people "tag" a single enemy combatant, when that person dies all 40 people get the same reward as if only one person had made the kill... this is unacceptable by ALL standards. combine this with vertical progression, and not only do the dominant faction have an easier time getting higher tiered gear, but when they get there they become more powerful, making them not only harder to kill but also making it easier to kill the underdogs. and to top it all off, there's a pvp stat involved... one of the worst things to grace mmo's everywhere has been addopted here, and what it means now, is that because higher tiered gear has higher base stats, AND a higher allotment of pvp stats, the dominating realm is well and truly on its way to being unbeatable. when "new 50's" come into the fold, there really will be no place for them, and no means for them to challenge the overpopulated side. But what can we do about allof this? nothing, it's in Biowares hands... and god i hope they can fix it. I'm sure they have ideas of their own, but then i'm also sure they thought the ideas they've already tried were good ones. disregarding the fact, of course, that those ideas both tried and failed in other games... So, here are a few suggestions that might make BioWares life easier. a couple of things they could do to make things more enjoyable for players and make the game a better place all round. 1. Heavily incentivise the underdog faction by doing the following: when the serverwide population is imbalanced by 1.5:1 or greater, grant a +100% valor bonus SERVER WIDE to the underdog faction.when the instance population is imbalanced by 1.25:1 or greater, grant a 25% valor bonus which scales up to 400% when the population imbalance reaches 4:1.make valor per kill, and the bonus attached to it, become divided by the amount of players involved in the kill. so rather than 40 players gaining (20 valor + 180 valor bonus) for killing a single player, they would instead recieve (1 valor + 5 valor bonus) each. this will round UP to the nearest whole number. this will grant a NON stat oriented incentive for the underdogs to get out there and fight. it will mean that in the absolute worst case scenario of being outnumbered by 4:1 or greater, the underdog will recieve the same valor per kill than the dominating faction will, even if the dominating faction controls all the objectives. it will also promote the idea that you are better off roaming in small groups looking for good even fights, than you are blobbing up in an almighty zerg, since you will gian less valor per kill as a zerg. 2. remove pvp stats from the game immediately, and do the following for a patch in the near future: tag Tionese, Columi, and Rakata gear, so that as soon as they enter a warzone, or initiate pvp, they recieve a 5% debuff to all stats. this would work similarly to how a player gets tagged with a trauma debuff when fighting, and the debuff vanishes when combat ends. i realise many people see pvp stats as a way for pvp players to compete with pve players who have better stats on their gear due to the progression of pve gear. i get that, it's a reasonable argument. but it's been dealt with in completely the wrong way. what it's ended up doing is alienating any and all players who don't have the gear now, or in future, who are going to be faced up against high level players, probably on a dominant side, and it just all mounts up to having too much work to do, for too little gain. there is still "progression" for all of those who wish to have it. the pvp gear still has tiers of stats, so you still get more numbers. but you will still struggle to complete high end pve content due to having lower stats than the pve sets. while at the same time, the pve gear will be great for pve, but will be on-par with the pvp sets, so there is no unfair advantage in that regard. due to the way the bolster system works in warzones, this would also allow them to remove the 50 bracket, decreasing queue times to a globally accepted level, with minimal problems (after all, without expertise, there's little difference between fighting a 49 or a 50 with the bolster system as it averages out stats, moving high stats down where needed). thanks for reading, i hope someone somewhere takes some notice. cheers. 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Kyrandis Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Nah, next Warhammer Online Failure will be Dark Millennium. Made by Relic who failed almost utterly at Warhammer Space Marine, and now they are making an MMO. Still going to play it though because I love WH40k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleightly Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I keep hearing people talk about starter gear. It existed. There were level 50 blues, I think I did the math and the whole set was something like 3300 warzone comms. They removed it from the game. It was sold on dromund kaas at the "<classname> pvp" vendor. I was checking it out and starting to grind warzone comms for it the day before the patch. When they removed it I hit the pvp really hard 'cause I could see the writing on the wall. I still got my head caved in a lot trying as hard as I could to play catch up. If you're not 50 yet, I really feel for you. Someone hit the nail on the head here. Experienced players dont need a numbers advantage, they already have a skill/strategy advantage. And as for the champion bags giving tier 2 pieces, but but tier 1 currency... <facepalm> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almghty_gir Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Nah, next Warhammer Online Failure will be Dark Millennium. Made by Relic who failed almost utterly at Warhammer Space Marine, and now they are making an MMO. Still going to play it though because I love WH40k. Vigil are making WH40K, not Relic. and it will fail because THQ are going bankrupt, not because of bad developers. Vigil are an awesome studio (check out Darksiders). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KonduitX Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) Agreed. PvP has just become yet another grind where gear > skill. Edited January 20, 2012 by KonduitX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyrandis Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) Vigil are making WH40K, not Relic. and it will fail because THQ are going bankrupt, not because of bad developers. Vigil are an awesome studio (check out Darksiders). Isn't relic still the producer? As for vigil added some hope there. Sad day for THQ they did make good RTS's atleast. Edited January 20, 2012 by Kyrandis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almghty_gir Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Isn't relic still the producer? As for vigil added some hope there. Sad day for THQ they did make good RTS's atleast. THQ are the publisher Relic is a studio (which made those good RTS's, like Dawn of War) Vigil are another studio (which made Darksiders) THQ funds both studios (and others). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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