PvP unplayable as a Sentinel

[thejingle]

They aren't impossible to play but they're most definitely the hardest to get a feel for as a relatively ungeared 50 with the new 50 bracket I would say, if you're pugging that is. They aren't as reliant as heals as some say but they do make a huge difference and they are more important to you than to most and if you don't have much gear you will absolutely explode if the enemy team focuses you while you're stunned and you don't have your stronger defensive cooldowns up. The class probably suffers more from chain stuns than any other in the game because its defense is so cooldown dependant and it's so vunlerable to cc.

[Laikacosmo]

You have a free cast slow... that u can keep up 100% of the time. You have a Force Crush that removes SPRINT from councelors/sorc class(ONLY one in game). You have mortal strike. You have Multiple leaps. You have temp vanish to close the gap. You have Stun imunnity. You are not helpless. I am sorry.

 

Snare is helpful, won't lie. "Force Crush" is a touchstone ability in a tree that is not very good with DPS, so not many Sentinels will ever take it, same with the second leap. Mortal strike is on a completely different tree, so unless you are insinuating that we can spec up fully two different trees...

 

As for stun immunity...am I missing something, because I am stunned all the time, within my resolve's 2min CD...

Edited January 19, 2012 by Laikacosmo

[enderandrew]

Check out my sig link. Plenty of footage of sentinel pvp and being successful.

 

Its frustrating as hell but also rewarding. Fyi im not fifty yet and all of the footage is pre 1.1, there is still plenty of killing.

 

Playing a melee class without stealth and in happy knockback land means knowing when and how to engage, and who to engage. Going in, murdering a healer and popping cooldowns to get out or survive long enough to be healed is just one example.

 

The resolve system does **** us hard, getting stunned multiple times and never reaching full resolve before dying sucks. Killing people after they use everything and get you to 15% and then they go from full to dead makes up for it.

 

I pvp as watchman, I tried out combat and I just didn't like the eng nature of burst from status form, and bladestorm cries not being enough to compare with watchman zenith + merciless slash. Focus i'll try out when im geared.

 

If you want something easier just go watch that epic bounty hunter video where he has one ability on his bar.

 

Sigh. It sure seems like I need to repeat this with every new page.

 

Stating that some have had success in certain scenarios does not counter any of my logic. We're now a full 8 pages in and not a soul has attempted to counter my actual points.

 

You are correct that if I target a healer specifically, and can get them alone, I can ruin their day. But even if I concede that, we're only establishing that a Sentinel can only be effective in one particular use case. My overall point stands that the classes are far from balanced.

 

If I go against ranged DPS, I am sadly outmatched no matter what I do. They can knock me back or stun me easily. They can simply move out of my range. They can run-and-gun. I've yet to discover any strategy that does anything here, save perhaps for the suggestion earlier to use Force Camo, except on a JK I think our stealth is only good for 6 seconds. I had better take full advantage to get in range, and surprise a ranged DPS well enough to chain something before they move, or get enough focus for Force Stasis.

 

If I go against a tank, I Force Leap, and they knock back. My ability to get in range is now wasted while I took the brunt of the damage. Assuming that we're truly 1-on-1, I come out slightly worse here, but might be able to make up the difference assuming they are a melee tank. A ranged tank can now simply own on me at range while I crawl back into range. In any scenario where other players are present, getting knocked back and wasting my Force Leap just ruined my day.

[Choocha]

Please tell me which of the three specs (I've played with two of the maxed) addresses the points I raised.

 

The answer is none. Why am I not surprised that pretty much the only responses I'm getting are ad hominem attacks?

 

Not a soul has tried to explain why and how the classes are truly balanced as designed, because I don't think you can make that argument logically.

 

Watchman Spec with full pvp gear = death to almost anyone. Unless you're stupid and trying to take on 3-4 people at once by yourself.

 

Can't get close? Force Leap, it's 12 second CD or something pathetic if you spec it and also has no minimum range = free focus.

 

Get stunned, Resolute.

 

Get stunned again? 4 second immortality from force camo,

 

Someone running from you? Valorous call + Trancendance and just smash their head in with mercilous strike

 

Someone too far ahead of you? Blade storm / crippling throw.

 

Still to far ahead of you? Force Stasis will help you eat time until force leap repops...

 

Need someone to die real fast? give this a try... as you're heading to your target, pop a pvp relic, rebuke, saber ward, overload saber and valorous call. Force Leap, Zen, Cauterize, Zealous Strike, Strike, Merciless Strike. From here the dots will eat through them and heal you and you need to decide what to do next. If they're dumb enough to stay in range spam slash to reset cauterize or if they run you still have Blade Storm/Crippling Throw and Dispatch.

 

Lots of buttons but takes about 4 seconds of in combat time if you hotkey everything. Obviously you can only bomb trinkets and rebuke/saber ward every 1-3 minutes but while you're waiting on those to reset you still have survivability in force camo, resolute, etc.

 

If you can think on your feet you can deal with almost any class with ease 1 on 1.

 

Between Force Sweep, awe and 2 point specced kick you can drop a healer solo without him getting many, if any heals off.

 

I'm full Champion gear and my Merciless Slash alone crits for 3.7-4.7k. Also with, 100% guarenteed crit dots eat through health fast enough that the person usually panics and screws up.

 

You picked a class that requires about 20-25 skills used together to be successful... If you're force leaping into crowds and expecting to stab everyone to death because you're a jedi with 2 sabers and that's how it should be... well that's your problem.

 

There is no middle ground with the sentinel class. You'll either absolutely destroy people or you will be terrible cannon fodder, it's not exactly a friendly class to learn but it is very, very rewarding if you do learn it (and have gear).

Edited January 19, 2012 by Notannos
use of retarded

[TheRealBrave]

I now see the light. All of my points are meaningless. I'm an idiot. I've never played an MMO in my life. I have no idea what I'm talking about. You have bestowed wisdom on me that I can never repay.

 

I now suddenly realize that it is absolutely fine that I do zero damage at range, and I'm fine with that. I realize that it doesn't matter if I don't really have any means to keep people in range with me. I have one stun, that does require me to stand still to activate, and can easily be interrupted. It also requires focus that is hard to rack up when I can't stay in range in the first place, but why should that matter?

 

Sentinels are godly. Anyone who disagrees is just frankly an idiot, which I was until reading your post.

 

I will spread the gospel now that you have shared it with me.

 

Sounds good. Stay bad and mad. You don't want to improve yourself, you only want to whine. When rated warzones come out every team will be rolling with probably two Sentinels.

[EcGBorn]

The only time I think melee has an unfair advantage is in the zergfest which is Ilum. In warzones I do just fine. When I try and jump into a mass of 100 imps, well lets be smart here, I prolly wont live but a second. Heck with the craptastic lag I dont even see myself force leap, i just see the "return to medcenter" msg.

[Maxxacre]

Marauder/Sentinel isn't for everyone. Melee, in general, generally takes more skill than ranged... and Marauder/Sentinel is definitely the most difficult melee class to play properly in this game. It may be that this class just isn't for you. But I certainly don't find the class unplayable. If anything, it rewards good play more than any other class. You can sit back and spam Tracer Missile as a Mercenary and top damage charts with ease... or you could be in people's faces constantly and use a variety of skills as a Marauder/Sentinel and top damage charts. Just try an easier class maybe.

[Laikacosmo]

If I go against ranged DPS, I am sadly outmatched no matter what I do. They can knock me back or stun me easily. They can simply move out of my range. They can run-and-gun. I've yet to discover any strategy that does anything here, save perhaps for the suggestion earlier to use Force Camo, except on a JK I think our stealth is only good for 6 seconds. I had better take full advantage to get in range, and surprise a ranged DPS well enough to chain something before they move, or get enough focus for Force Stasis.

 

Force Camo is 4 secs, with a 30% speed increase. More than enough time to sneak up on a RDPS, making it invaluable to starting the fight. It's CD is relatively low, too, so it will be up pretty reliably. If they get the jump on you, hit it as well. Either it will break your snare that they put on you, or at least negate any damage and keep them from targeting you. Hit them with Pacify, which basically means they can hardly hit you for 6 seconds, and wait for them to KB you. Force leap and unload again. It's rather formulaic, and very effective. Give it a try.

[Edrlin]

OK, so I'm a fool. Please disregard my page long post. I really need to brush up on my

 

Republic class = Empire class

 

Jedi Sent = Sith Marauder not Jedi Sent = Sith Juggernaut

 

I'm dummy, thanks for not flaming.

 

But, I haven't played a Marauder or Sent, but I have read a lot of posts from them saying they have DPS and rotation issues. Maybe, maybe not, but from my many many games of PVP they are the class I fear the absolutely least. If I see one? Force push them away and go kill a real threat.

 

But, to the OP, I see you are trying to build an argument here with your Range DPS/ Melee DPS stance, but it is a hard one to take.

 

Your argument = Ranged kill me all the time, and that is not fair.

Everyone else = I am melee and I kill ranged all the time

 

1. Be aware of your environment, don't pick fights you can't win. Run in center on on Civil War with a Merc/Merc/Sorc in a triangle def on high ground and you are solo is just a no no.

 

2. Force leap, slow, stun, and for the love of god interrupt. Interrupt is the #1 most helpful ability melee has, and I would say the #1 must under used skill.

 

That is all I got. In the end, if you really are so upset, it is so easy and so fun to level up in this game, just roll a ranged DPS.

 

Good Luck

Edited January 19, 2012 by Edrlin

[velgian]

im usually either top dmg and kills or at least in the top 3. force leap to whoever and go to town with whatever spec abilities you got use defensive cooldowns like blade barrier or resolute as often as possible ya you will die but thats how it works unless you got a healer with you then you are golden

[Laikacosmo]

Caveat Emptor: You will probably not win against a Sniper in cover...

 

****'s broken... :\

Edited January 19, 2012 by Laikacosmo

[orson]

I'd love to write a huge post on how to be a good player as a sent.

 

But I think it would be easier if I just came over there and played your toon for you.

 

Seriously sents are amazing and there is tons of info on the web on how to play one, the class doesn't have a problem, it's quite possible you are just not a very good player or maybe that class is just not for you.

[Pureanabolic]

Between your slows and roots you should have no problems.... your master strike and force status stent your only abilities.... I have no problems beating down troopers or ranged.

[Daecollo]

Sentinel has more ranged attacks then Vanguard.

[Notensack]

Watchmen is all fluff damage. I've cut their damage in 2/3 with my melee train.

Focus is legitimately a better spec on Guardian.

[Pureanabolic]

Caveat Emptor: You will probably not win against a Sniper in cover...

 

****'s broken... :\

 

Lol i hate to refer to WoW but its like a warrior vs frost mage... Run away well at least for my little 30 sentinel

[kyaris]

Sentinel needs mechanics to compete in Huttball, but in terms of raw damage numbers is pretty balanced. You basically have to be biochem for the medpacks though, even with the recent nerfs.

[enderandrew]

Watchman Spec with full pvp gear = death to almost anyone. Unless you're retarded and trying to take on 3-4 people at once by yourself.

Calling people retarded? :facepalm:

Can't get close? Force Leap, it's 12 second CD or something pathetic if you spec it and also has no minimum range = free focus.

I am Watchman full spec. I Force Leap, get knocked back and then can't do anything for 12 seconds while I limp back into certain death. But as you stated, that makes me retarded.

Get stunned, Resolute.

Which has a 2 minute cool-down, which I can literally be killed within 3 seconds of being stunned. In practice, I find I'm often killed 3-4 times before I literally get a single attack, and that is usually when Resolute is done with cool-down.

Get stunned again? 4 second immortality from force camo,

I literally have 3.5 toolbars filled with abilities I need to be able to activate for every scenario. Managing that quickly is another disadvantage I haven't addressed yet. But I usually only keep 3 toolbars on the screen at once, and one of the abilities I don't have room for on my screen usually is Force Camo. It only lasts 6 seconds. I probably would reconsider adding this to my staple of abilities and remove something else, but it still doesn't change the fact that others can simply run-and-gun, and I can't stay in melee range long enough.

Someone running from you? Valorous call + Trancendance and just smash their head in with mercilous strike

Valorous call requires you to be level 50. I don't have it. Anyone who isn't level 50 is SOL. And even if you have it, it is a 3 minute cool down. So any other time someone is running from you, you're screwed. And if you took the Combat or Focus skill trees, you're SOL. But otherwise, I completely agree that this ability alone that most Sentinels can't use, and even Watchman can use sparingly, completely balances the class.

Still to far ahead of you? Force Stasis will help you eat time until force leap repops...

This takes a few seconds for me to get off, and is usually interrupted. I also can't cast it unless I'm in melee range (10m). So saying that I can use Force Stasis to get in range is pretty much a lie.

Need someone to die real fast? give this a try... as you're heading to your target, pop a pvp relic, rebuke, saber ward, overload saber and valorous call. Force Leap, Zen, Cauterize, Zealous Strike, Strike, Merciless Strike. From here the dots will eat through them and heal you and you need to decide what to do next. If they're dumb enough to stay in range spam slash to reset cauterize or if they run you still have Blade Storm/Crippling Throw and Dispatch.

I don't have PvP relics and gear, because I pretty much can't play PvP as a Sentinel as it stands. But what you describe is a perfect scenario that you can use once every 3 minutes that would be pretty effective to take down one person, assuming I'm not stunned and Resolute isn't on cool-down, and I'm level 50, and I have PvP gear, and I'm Watchmen spec. Who cares if in any other scenario a Sentinel is useless?

 

If you can make for one-off perfect scenarios where you can contribute, that completely means the classes are balanced.

 

If you can think on your feet you can deal with almost any class with ease 1 on 1.

I completely disagree with this sentiment, and have explained why with reason. Even if what you said was true (which it isn't) I need to be able to manage 30 abilities quickly to keep up with every scenario. Sentinels are simply designed at a disadvantage. Stating that it is possible in theory to overcome disadvantages with exceptional play does not mean the classes are balanced.

Between Force Sweep, awe and 2 point specced kick you can drop a healer solo without him getting many, if any heals off.

In PvP, a healer should have 12k of hit points easily. How am I doing 12k of damage with Force Sweep and a kick? Are you seriously in fantasy land?

I'm full Champion gear and my Merciless Slash alone crits for 3.7-4.7k. Also with, 100% guarenteed crit dots eat through health fast enough that the person usually panics and screws up.

And I've seen ranged DPS crit for 5k frequently, which is the core issue. Ranged DPS should not burst for as much damage as the melee DPS which has to overcome obstacles to do anything.

You picked a class that requires about 20-25 skills used together to be successful... If you're force leaping into crowds and expecting to stab everyone to death because you're a jedi with 2 sabers and that's how it should be... well that's your problem.

Designing a class that is harder to play, and yet doesn't offer rewards such as higher burst DPS damage is Bioware's problem.

There is no middle ground with the sentinel class. You'll either absolutely destroy people or you will be terrible cannon fodder, it's not exactly a friendly class to learn but it is very, very rewarding if you do learn it (and have gear).

A well executed DPS should destroy quickly, and a perfect scenario a Sentinel can do that. The issue is why it should be so much harder for a Sentinel to have any value at all, when a ranged DPS character can do just as much damage that much easier. Edited January 19, 2012 by enderandrew

[KronikInsomniak]

Sentinel and Marauder is just highly gear dependent. Until you get the gear to increase your survivability and damage the mechanics of the class will hold you back against 50s with moderate gear. Its like hitting a tipping point with the class where you will be able to live long enough to out damage them before they bring you down.

 

For all the pvp videos people are linking, keep in mind the player is almost always A) Geared B) fighting people with less gear or C) All of the above. (referring to 50's bracket here)

Edited January 19, 2012 by KronikInsomniak

[Pureanabolic]

The med packs share a CD with the pvp ones tho... Or does biochem get better than the pvp ones?

[velgian]

Sentinel needs mechanics to compete in Huttball, but in terms of raw damage numbers is pretty balanced. You basically have to be biochem for the medpacks though, even with the recent nerfs.

 

 

thats why you work as a team you can get the ball and take it almost to the other side and just have someone to pass to. you have def cds to help mitigate dmg you got speed boost if you got 30 centering and 10% dmg reduction.

[Internicio]

lets reread that sentence over and rethink the meaning of the word balanced. Melee shouldn't do more dps because they need to be in melee. They should just have the ability to get into melee range. Called a gap closer. You have that...

 

The OP's point is that once the gap is closed the two are equal - so why did one have to close the gap (an added step) and the other did not?

 

either:

1) once the gap is closed the melee should have an advantage

either a) more damage for the melee

or b) less dmg for the ranged

Or

2) there should be no extra step (disadvantage)

 

that's the OP's point no one has directly refuted. The best we've gotten is that the extra step isn't that big of a deal.

 

I'd submit that the real answer is that it's more complicated than this simple evaluation. The abilities a sentinel gets are more complicated (defensive cooldowns, group help, heal debuff, etc.).

Edited January 19, 2012 by Internicio

[enderandrew]

The OP's point is that once the gap is closed the two are equal - so why did one have to close the gap (an added step) and the other did not?

 

either:

1) once the gap is closed the melee should have an advantage

either a) more damage for the melee

or b) less dmg for the ranged

Or

2) there should be no extra step (disadvantage)

 

that's the OP's point no one has directly refuted. The best we've gotten is that the extra step isn't that big of a deal.

 

I'd submit that the real answer is that it's more complicated than this simple evaluation. The abilities a sentinel gets are more complicated (defensive cooldowns, group help, heal debuff, etc.).

The problem is that if you can be stunned and killed in 3 seconds before activating a single ability, then frankly you're never going to build centering and do much to get to the point where you're helping.

 

Even if you aren't stunned and then killed in 3 seconds, since you can't stay in melee range, you can't get to the point where you've built focus and centering to contribute.

 

If I find someone solo who is just standing there, sure I can be useful. But we're establishing a caveat that you only have balance when you're an excellent player, and the opposing player isn't very good. That basically proves me point that the classes aren't balanced intrinsically.

[KonduitX]

The problem is Sents and Maras need to work 5x harder to put out the same dps as say, a BH can by spamming tracer missile over and over and over or a Sorc can by spamming lightning.

[LiveandDieinLA]

I also play a sentinel, and I know where you are coming from, couple of weeks ago i was ready to throw my keyboard out the window when I did wzs, but it has gotten better. I watched a bunch of video on youtube of mara/sents playing at a very high level, refined my rotations, learned to use all of my cds in their own rotation, and I have seen vast improvements in my performance ever since. I went from doing maybe 75k damage a round to about 125-300k damage.

I am still by no means a master of this class, but even soloing through the entire game up to level 50 didn't teach me what i needed to know as a sent.

 

 

either l2p, or cmn