Why WoWs and SWTORs PvP cannot succeed

[Vindor]

no, get real urself. i talk about daoc in its prime. not its dying breath. MLs and artifacts where what? right, pve trash that killed the game.

 

So RR and RA had nothing to do with the success of daoc RvR , L M A O

 

Either its gear or ability or whatever, its character progression. It give you an advantage over other lower level/gear players. Its how it is.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Vindor

[Fairell]

So RR and RA had nothing to do with the success of daoc RvR , L M A O

 

learn to read. i mentioned RAs. yes they were powerful, yes they made me stronger. yet the strongest abilities had cooldowns. Still, as a good premade you COULD beat others higher than you in rank.

 

in swtor there is no way in hell your fresh 50 premade is going to put a dent on full battlemasters or even champions if they are not absolute *******

[Vindor]

learn to read. i mentioned RAs. yes they were powerful, yes they made me stronger. yet the strongest abilities had cooldowns. Still, as a good premade you COULD beat others higher than you in rank.

 

in swtor there is no way in hell your fresh 50 premade is going to put a dent on full battlemasters or even champions if they are not absolute *******

 

Well if you think the reward are too powerfull thats another debate entirely which i dont care for.

 

I m only saying that asking for an mmorpg without any character progression either through gear or ability or anything is a non sense. And picking Daoc as an exemple of such is BS as it had one the longest grind i recall.

[Razot]

Well if you think the reward are too powerfull thats another debate entirely which i dont care for.

 

I m only saying that asking for an mmorpg without any character progression either through gear or ability or anything is a non sense. And picking Daoc as an exemple of such is BS as it had one the longest grind i recall.

 

Nothing wrong with gear progression at all.. Just the magic stat that needs to get dumped imo.

[karcyon]

They implement the gear grind because grinding = you playing longer = more money. They don't care about balance, skill etc. They care about your money! Yes it is dump, especially in an story driven MMO. Edited January 19, 2012 by karcyon

[Fairell]

Nothing wrong with gear progression at all.. Just the magic stat that needs to get dumped imo.

 

it is not only the magic stat, thats overall stat increase and huge jump in weapon dmg

 

but when thinking about it again..scrapping expertise would make professions viable, so you could just take moddable gear and fill it with appropriate mods to get the same stats

[Broxer]

I agree. Although if you have PvP gear that is equivalent to raiding gear then you will have pvers in the wz's trying to gear up for raids.

 

I think reducing the effectiveness of expertise would be a viable solution as well. I mean, being a fresh 50 last week. Trying to kill someone in full champion gear was pointless.

 

Make PvP gear primarily for PvP but reduce expertise so its not a god mode stat.

[Broom]

You got star wars galaxies, alirght ( calling this game a success is borderline but that let me some space )

 

Ok my turn :

 

Everquest

Everquest 2

World of warcraft

Dark age of camelot

Swtor

AoC

Warhammer online

 

.....

 

If a game has 220K stable subs in a time when other games consider 150K subs to be a great success, then yes, that game is doing very well.

 

In its initial incarnation, City of Heroes (150K subs), didn't have gear or loot either, and PVP points evaporated if you didn't actively PVP. It worked quite well that way too.

 

And the point that I'm making is really this: back when there were maybe a million people in TOTAL playing MMO, there was a significant number of players who were quite happy to play in a game without gear progression, or in the case of SWG even levels. People who furthermore engaged in PVP not for loot or rewards or being entered on a ladder (although there were player organised ladder competitions), but for fun and rivalry.

 

MMO are not all about gear progression, questing and loot, that's just what many of them have become when everyone jumped the WoW bandwagon.

[BaxAttack]

The "magic stat" is obtainable by everyone I have no idea why everyone is complaining. Be lucky that there isn't some sort of rating system yet where you need a certain rating to get pieces of gear. Then you guys would really cry. God forbid people have to earn something in an mmo.

[Jyzai]

Really I find cowd control like stuns mostly to be the biggest problem. If theres more than one player with a stun then being able to break them is just pointless.

[Mackuss]

You could have saved yourself form posting that entire wall of text, OP, by saying:

 

Look no further than games like Call of Duty.

 

The gear curve is non existent, so everyone is rushed to equality - and to a point that only skill matters.

 

And does the lack of gear progression get old?

 

Just ask yourself how many play those games and continue to play them...............

[Oscito]

I don't get this at all... people that enjoy pvping will have battlemaster rank fast... and therefor they will have the gear fast.. if people dont wanna play pvp then ur gonna have crap gear in it... basicly ure saying u want to be as good as everyone else without putting any effort into it.

[Thiussat]

It was not the BG's that killed World PvP. It was the Rewards of BG's (and then Arenas) gave the players. Compared to World PvP you only do that 1 to 5 Times to get you Faction Mount for killing the other factions bosses.

 

But I am in the boat for PvP gear that does not have a special stats like Expertise. If you don't know what it does reduces the damage on you and increases the dps/heals. That is really lame in my book.

 

They can just use the normal stats in this game just fine.

 

Later

 

Fine. But then you'll have to stop giving out PvE gear as well. Otherwise, it will be a faceroll once the progression guilds with their superior gear decide to PvP. Sure, in WZ's you could tone down their stats, but what about OPvP? There you're screwed.

 

As another guy said, we all may as well just play naked.

[Fairell]

it is a pointless discussion regardless.

 

the real gamers, skilled and good at gaming, demanding challenge. we are few. most of the MMO players are average, bad or just plain r.eta.rded. They want the shiny stuff for a bit of daddling around, no threats that could affect their gaming experience. now this is the majority of the customer base.

 

guess what? developers realised it very fast. thats why wow became pointless and is adding ridiculous stuff like pandas and pokemons and games are made idiotproof.

[Broom]

I don't get this at all... people that enjoy pvping will have battlemaster rank fast... and therefor they will have the gear fast.. if people dont wanna play pvp then ur gonna have crap gear in it... basicly ure saying u want to be as good as everyone else without putting any effort into it.

 

I tend to have high-ranking, well-equipped PVP toons in the games I play, and I'll tell you this: it is a BAD idea to make the advantage gear or PVP level gives you too big. New players tend to get rolled hard by geared old-timers and as a result, many of the new ones will quit PVP altogether. And as old-timers leave for other games, this means an ever-smaller pool of players, until PVP dies altogether.

 

Personally, I take no pleasure in demolishing someone who literally doesn't stand a chance, I'd much rather have a real fight. And I don't think a baddie who's afked themselves through wargames or who's just been carried all the time, should be winning just because they got geared. SKILL should matter a lot more than it does. (And please note, that means I'll lose a lot more duels too... I'm a strategist, not a duelist. =p )

Edited January 19, 2012 by Broom

[Vindor]

If a game has 220K stable subs in a time when other games consider 150K subs to be a great success, then yes, that game is doing very well.

 

In its initial incarnation, City of Heroes (150K subs), didn't have gear or loot either, and PVP points evaporated if you didn't actively PVP. It worked quite well that way too.

 

And the point that I'm making is really this: back when there were maybe a million people in TOTAL playing MMO, there was a significant number of players who were quite happy to play in a game without gear progression, or in the case of SWG even levels. People who furthermore engaged in PVP not for loot or rewards or being entered on a ladder (although there were player organised ladder competitions), but for fun and rivalry.

 

MMO are not all about gear progression, questing and loot, that's just what many of them have become when everyone jumped the WoW bandwagon.

 

Back when they were 1million people ? you mean when the mmo were Everquest, everquest 2, dark age of camelot and star wars galaxies ? well i rest my case.

 

 

 

Most succesfull mmorpg are about character progression, through level, PvP level, alternate abilities, gear etc

 

You failed to even dent my statement, try again

Edited January 19, 2012 by Vindor

[Tristita]

Expertise needs to stay.

 

Hello, I'm the other side of this absurdly bias arguement. I PvP, I hate raiding. I find endgame PvE to require all the ability as a child following a line behind teacher in Pre-school. No functional gear rewards in PvP? So what happens in a few months (JUST LIKE IN WOW for years) when the nerd virgin basement dwelling losers get decked out in full nightmare raiding gear. Should they be able to just walk into warzones with their tricked out raid gear and 2 shot everyone? Why shouldn't I, a full time PvPer have an advantage over people who kill digital dragons, something that has NOTHING to do with PvP when they are allowed to wear their super dragon gear in Warzones?

 

Want to take gear progression out of PvP? Then take Gear progression out of PvE as well, exact same justification. Raiding is about fun after all.

 

In 'another game' that I still PvP in time to time, I've been Gladiator 6 times and High Warlord. I've seen this arguement happen time and time again and it's always raiders and bad pvpers who want to wear raid gear in Warzones and destroy EVERYONE without a stat like Resilence or Expertise in place to protect other players, never once thinking about everyone else who doesn't want to get TWO SHOT because they hate raiding. So heres an idea. Offer the best gear for PvPing to people who PvP, and offer the best gear for nerd virgin basement dwelling dragon slaying to raiders.

 

 

Oh. Wait.....

[dadamowsky]

so no point in crying now you have or had 50 lvls to get points for gear what happened ?

Woah, wait a second. 50 lvls to gear up? Seriously? Bracket was introduced yesterday, before it was like "lololol, I have much free time so I was grinding past week, got 50 got gear and now I'll just steamroll you". Or at least "don't play PvP if you're not 50, you ruin our grind" comments.

 

I'm not really missing 50s, low bracket is so much better without OPed inquis with tons of expertise, 2-3 shooting my 47 main just because I did not have any expertise gear at all. It would be just more enjoyable and relied on skill and understanding of your role on the field without gear grind at all.

 

Expertise needs to stay.

 

Hello, I'm the other side of this absurdly bias arguement. I PvP, I hate raiding. I find endgame PvE to require all the ability as a child following a line behind teacher in Pre-school. No functional gear rewards in PvP? So what happens in a few months (JUST LIKE IN WOW for years) when the nerd virgin basement dwelling losers get decked out in full nightmare raiding gear. (...)

Your argument is a little bit irrelevant since you did not read carefully what did OP write, or did not understand it. The solution is: SAME STAT GEAR FOR EVERY PVP PARTICIPANT. Only thing that would differ players are skill builds and... well skills of a player himself. Simple? Simple. Brilliant. And perfect.*

 

*Of course if we're talking about truely competitive PvP, not the steamroll fest for people who actually have too much free time to play this game all day long.

Edited January 19, 2012 by dadamowsky

[Razot]

Expertise needs to stay.

 

Hello, I'm the other side of this absurdly bias arguement. I PvP, I hate raiding. I find endgame PvE to require all the ability as a child following a line behind teacher in Pre-school. No functional gear rewards in PvP? So what happens in a few months (JUST LIKE IN WOW for years) when the nerd virgin basement dwelling losers get decked out in full nightmare raiding gear. Should they be able to just walk into warzones with their tricked out raid gear and 2 shot everyone? Why shouldn't I, a full time PvPer have an advantage over people who kill digital dragons, something that has NOTHING to do with PvP when they are allowed to wear their super dragon gear in Warzones?

 

Want to take gear progression out of PvP? Then take Gear progression out of PvE as well, exact same justification. Raiding is about fun after all.

 

In 'another game' that I still PvP in time to time, I've been Gladiator 6 times and High Warlord. I've seen this arguement happen time and time again and it's always raiders and bad pvpers who want to wear raid gear in Warzones and destroy EVERYONE without a stat like Resilence or Expertise in place to protect other players, never once thinking about everyone else who doesn't want to get TWO SHOT because they hate raiding. So heres an idea. Offer the best gear for PvPing to people who PvP, and offer the best gear for nerd virgin basement dwelling dragon slaying to raiders.

 

 

Oh. Wait.....

 

I am sorry for your poor selection in games.

[asetylene]

I'm sure evening out the playing field like this sounds like a great idea to all the purist pvp for pvp's sake people out there. But if you take away the progression and all the meaningful rewards most people are going to lose interest.

 

Call of Duty, League of Legends, the dreaded WoW. They all have their own form of progression, they also happen to be the most successful games of their class. Its not a coincidence.

 

If you really want even ground hardcore pvp action go find a free pre-age of shadows Ultima Online server, max your magery skills and have at it. Mage duels will test your quick thinking, reflexes, and strategic skills to the max. More so than any other game i have played (i've played a lot of them).

[Darth_Philar]

It seems that a lot of people (including the developers at BW) are missing a very important point: PvE is an MMORPG, PvP is just MMO and should not have any RPG elements in it at all. First and foremost, PvE is a misnomer. In an RPG it is never player versus anything, it is character versus environment or CvE. Secondly, PvP stands for Player versus Player. I know that some of you are confused, but you are the player. The character is not. Therefore in Player versus Player it is supposed to be your skill versus the skill of another person. Third, what we have in SWTOR and WOW and other similar games is CvC or Character versus Character. It is completely unbalanced and 100% impossible to balance. Therefore, if you want actual PvP in SWTOR then you will ask BW to remove all stats from gear in Warzones. By removing all forms of progression from your character, you make the character a representation of your skill and can achieve actual PvP.

[prinses]

I like the idea that instead of gear that you can unlock unique pvp skills instead (note, only useable in pvp) and bolster just gives everyone the same stats.

 

Those skills may give you a slight advantage over others, but shouldnt make you overpowered compared to them.

With mmo`s like this i like that you work on something more rewarding then just stats (which we`ll see in march?!?) cause i like to see progression and work towards something usefull.

[Fairell]

i didnt say gear progression needs to go. it has to be changed. i think it is much better wanting to acquire something because i WANT it, not because i NEED it to be remotely competitive.

 

there are many other incentives to rank up. be it darth vader armor, titles, virgins, or satele shan as a pet, own star destroyer or passive skills making everyone else warship you as you are passing by.

 

but that will make pvp competitive. why are so many asking for arena? (not that i support it)do they want competition and recognition of their skills or just gear looking the same with 5% better stats?

 

 

gear progression stat wise is nice for pve, so someone cannot go and kick lich kings a.s.s on hardmode as soon as he dings max lvl.

 

but statwise gear progression for pvp is BAD in the long run. imagine the game lasting for several years and there now are 6 or so different tiers of pvp gear based on ranks, RNG and pure grind. this is will highly discourage from leveling new toons and thus staying in game, fighting max out people will become impossible.

 

the solution would not affect pve, but give even casuals who are skilled chances and incentives to test themselves without taking on another year long grind to just have a chance of winning.

[asetylene]

Pvp rewards that are solely aesthetic wont keep enough people wanting to pvp.

[UA_Wookie]

1. WZ pvp is not the best way to get valor anymore get a group and defend the base spam aoes and pulls and enjoy 70-140 valor every kill.

2. once everyone spends 2 weeks being level 50 they are pretty well geared and will have at least 300 expertise.

3. if pvp gear is gone then people who spend time doing PVE will do better than the people who purely do PVP like myself.

 

if you want pvp gear gone then i want pve gear gone how is that for fair.

just give everyone 0 armor and have everyone play naked.

 

-10 for another rage post from someone unwiling to gear up a level 50.

 

Or, everyone just picks a set of armor from default choices (the only differences would be cosmetic) when they queue up for a WZ. Think of it as "suiting up" for a football, baseball, or basketball game. You don't get to keep the WZ armor...it's just something you use when you do that WZ.