So this patch is very telling about the future of SWTOR

[Nagolias]

PlanetSide was an MMO that had working world PvP!

 

Because it had 3 factions. And without anything but visual skins appeal to pull someone to either side.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Nagolias

[Grammarye]

Because it had 3 factions. And without anything but visual skins appeal to pull someone to either side.

An excellent point. Two-faction games always seem to have more problems.

[Calhoun_Solo]

Previous to the release of 1.1, a guildie and I were having a discussion about the importance of 1.1, and how the handling of it will basically dictate how all future patches will probably go. With that in mind, here's my initial scorecard:

 

Flashpoint/Operation PvE -- Fantastic set of bug fixes, with some good content additions. Looks like this one is being handled very well. Grade: A-

 

Instanced PvP -- Needed changes which will be good for both the game as a whole and warzone balance specifically. Some tweaking still needed, and new warzones are a must for next round, but not a bad set of changes to start. Grade: B

 

World PvP -- An absolute horrible mess and a disaster for the game as a whole. Not only is Ilum (still) terrible, but exploits are poised to ruin other parts of the game. Grade: F

 

In total, in the future, expect PvE and warzones to be good, world PvP to fail miserably.

 

Of course, the REALLY interesting thing to look for now is how the Ilum mess will be handled....

 

Give it some time..will ya?

[Scoobings]

Ilum is beyond broken right now, on pretty much any server repilic is getting spawn camped and the only way to escape is to log on a alt.

 

my server it's 4:1, i don't see how bioware didn't see this coming. I'm pretty sure they recieved feedback that this would happen. Empire will farm valor 3 times as fast cause rpublic can't cope with the amount of zerg empire produces.

 

Not to justify spawn camping, because it's not justifiable, but if you que for a WZ and go AFK it teleports you to fleet. Good way to get off ilum when you're locked down.

[wbtusmc]

Yes, because everyone is going to leave the game because of the issue of faction imbalances on Ilum. That's the only problem, is that Empires outnumber Repunlic by 2:1 or 3:1 ratio. If people quit because there is a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio on Ilum, then whatever. I mean they were okay with this pre-patch, why the sudden change of heart? Oh wait, no more free gear.

 

No. Im unsubscribing because of the secondary effects brought on by ilum. It is SO tilted toward the Empire that it will spill over into warzones and all future pvp content.

[Rhinoplat]

havent seen a big mmo with working world pvp since... ehem forever i guess?.... closest we got was old pre-bc wow and even then it favored numbers and people who put work into raiding to get ahead of lazy masses. anyway... moving on.

 

Working games with true world PvP:

 

UO

DaoC

Shadowbane

EvE

Darkfall

Mortal Online

 

WoW does not have open world PvP - not the good kind at least.

 

The games that weren't successful due to financial success doesn't mean they weren't successes for the genre. Shadowbane was a great game and is the only game to date with the best siege/city management system. I left DF because of bugs and exploits/grind. The biggest complaint I had with DF and MO were they didn't give guilds the utilities that SB did in allowing them to build cities anywhere the guilds wanted. That was what made SB unique, the power was given to the players.

 

EvE is still a success and has the same type of foundation that Shadowbane does; a PvP centric guild/corp based power struggle game.

 

The suggestion/solution is to create a planet that has the SB/EvE style of gameplay. Allow guilds to build their own mini cities, and then let the guilds fight over resources. It's too long to type out now, but after copying so much from WoW (while financially successful is a poor implementation of PvP) start copying from PvP games that actually made things interesting for years.

[eRoN_]

Very telling about the future of SWTOR indeed... Just like Failhammer their priorities are backwards.

 

Don't bother fixing anything thats broken, even if its as fundamental as the game engine, just keep chucking new content at them.

 

Bioware is not the same company it used to be, and unfortunately as we can see from the pvp and programming quality, Mythic still is.

[FlameLancer]

Why should I if the devs don't have the common sense tor realize what changes will DO?

 

I'm not paying money for months or years on end for these people to figure out how to do their job,sorry.

 

So what your saying is your gonna leave after the first month of a game that already has surpassed games like WoW and EQ on its initial release and go have everything handed to you in these games that have had years of developing new ideas and implementing ideas people have presented.

 

All I can say to everyone going to leave, it won't hurt this game, its better off without people who want everything at once and can't understand what developers and programmers go through on initial releases. Despite it all WoW is still the best choice on this, it gives people who are too lazy or too dumb everything they need to be less fail now, I know for a fact that when that game was released, the same stereotypical people trolled the forums complaining they couldn't find this and content was hard and too many bugs, every game has it

 

So for all those leaving, good luck and make it quick, stop complaing because we all know those people will be back, or go play games that are free to play or go play with panda's and pokemon

[Azlad]

This is a SOE and SWG level mistake

[Punnyjunior]

lol seriously there is nothing wrong with ilum

 

you guys are just losers dont wanna get farmed ? just beat them

[ErrantMercenary]

Flashpoint/Operation PvE -- Fantastic set of bug fixes, with some good content additions. Looks like this one is being handled very well. Grade: A-.

 

I'll allow the other two grades, it's this one in particular I want to speak to. Especially as a Commando, I will not give BioWare an A of any kind for PvE corrections when my Full Auto loses damage if I get hit, and a Bounty Hunter's Unload does not. My Mortar Volley takes a full second longer to register any damage than the Bounty Hunter's Death From Above. Sage and Sorcerer healing and utility vastly outstrip that of any other class in the game, and this wasn't examined, or even acknowledged, much less addressed.

 

I know that "New Content Produced" is a metric that producers and executives are monitoring (because it's easier to advertise than "This game is totes balanced! We promise!") but BioWare needs to get two things straight immediately: "Separate but equal" is a fantasy. Most high schools have an entire unit in history class dedicated to this concept. Mirror classes need to be EXACT MIRROR classes. No wiggle room. No heat where others have ammo. No 60 second slow cooldown instead of a 90 second stun cooldown. No purple crystals that are easier to attain for one side than the other. This is not a public school circa 1957 and it should reflect that.

 

Secondly: New content is great and all, but unless the fundamentals of the game are in good working order, all you're doing is adding stuff to your heaping pile of garbage. Get your house in order first, THEN add new content. As an added benefit, this will make future content easier to balance. If you fix your underlying game, and then something doesn't work with something you add to the game after that, all you have to retune is the additions. If you add stuff to your broken pile of crap, you just have extra considerations to make while retuning the underlying mechanics.

 

C-, a passable enough grade to move forward with. But lots of room for improvement.

[YourFutureEx]

Feel the rage, embrace it.

I also agree with the previous comment that for a game for 2012 it should not be having issues and systems from 2004-2008.

 

And what kind of expert on the MMO's of 2012 are you? I haven't seen any yet. You are not a computer programmer with a degree are you? Probably not. What a game SHOULD or should not have is your opinion and unfortunately for alot of us, is allowed on these forums.

 

If you don't like it, don't play it. You won't be missed by Bioware or these forums.

[LX_Theo]

Do you really think they will spend money to support this game with everybody leaving... they aren't gonna lose money willingly..

 

This isn't the WoW forums. That comment doesn't apply to this game.

[Amp_]

I've been able to look past just about issue I've had with SWTOR so far with the exception of when I was having error 9000 problems because that was game breaking for me. But I haven't had an issue with that in a couple weeks now.

 

Ilum post 1.1 is the first thing that has seriously turned me off because world pvp was what I was looking forward to the most. The warzones are cool and all, but I am rooted in open world pvp and not instanced pvp. The current state of Ilum is just terrible.

 

I think this is the first serious black eye for the game and the first major patch always sets the tone for the game. At this point I'm not sure if it's worth it for me to stay subbed right now and it might be better to just wait a few months till this all gets sorted.

 

I am very interested in seeing how this situation is handled and what they plan to do from here before I go making my final decision.

[Localhost]

And what kind of expert on the MMO's of 2012 are you? I haven't seen any yet. You are not a computer programmer with a degree are you? Probably not. What a game SHOULD or should not have is your opinion and unfortunately for alot of us, is allowed on these forums.

 

If you don't like it, don't play it. You won't be missed by Bioware or these forums.

 

Did you just use that broken *** English to call someone out?

 

I'll tell you what kind of expert I am. I'm an expert that has been playing and beta testing MMO's for 15 years. I'm also a person who knows the 30 years history of MMO's. I'm also a person who know's first hand and through research the systems and mechanics that successful MMO's field as well as the failed and horrible mechanics others have used.

 

30 years or history to work with. 15 years of commercial success and failures to learn from and still companies produce the same broken and I say 100% predictably fail systems into their games.

 

 

So, what do you have for us YourFutureEx. I'm guessing nothing.

[Cameirus]

Personally I am lol'ing so hard right now, all those FBs saying that patch 1.1 was the holy grail....lol.

 

This is just such a **** up on a practually unpreceedented scale I cant believe it. BW you NEEDED this patch to be good to show people you could deliver content....but what do you put out instead? This pile of crap.

[Doki]

I'll allow the other two grades, it's this one in particular I want to speak to. Especially as a Commando, I will not give BioWare an A of any kind for PvE corrections when my Full Auto loses damage if I get hit, and a Bounty Hunter's Unload does not. My Mortar Volley takes a full second longer to register any damage than the Bounty Hunter's Death From Above. Sage and Sorcerer healing and utility vastly outstrip that of any other class in the game, and this wasn't examined, or even acknowledged, much less addressed.

 

I know that "New Content Produced" is a metric that producers and executives are monitoring (because it's easier to advertise than "This game is totes balanced! We promise!") but BioWare needs to get two things straight immediately: "Separate but equal" is a fantasy. Most high schools have an entire unit in history class dedicated to this concept. Mirror classes need to be EXACT MIRROR classes. No wiggle room. No heat where others have ammo. No 60 second slow cooldown instead of a 90 second stun cooldown. No purple crystals that are easier to attain for one side than the other. This is not a public school circa 1957 and it should reflect that.

 

Secondly: New content is great and all, but unless the fundamentals of the game are in good working order, all you're doing is adding stuff to your heaping pile of garbage. Get your house in order first, THEN add new content. As an added benefit, this will make future content easier to balance. If you fix your underlying game, and then something doesn't work with something you add to the game after that, all you have to retune is the additions. If you add stuff to your broken pile of crap, you just have extra considerations to make while retuning the underlying mechanics.

 

C-, a passable enough grade to move forward with. But lots of room for improvement.

 

I didn't cover class balance in my original post, and I probably should have, although this should probably be a seperate item since it affects both PvE and PvP equally. While not much class balance was covered, the nerfs to Cybertech (the crew skill on my main) and to Biochem were definitely needed, and these changes may significantly alter the balance of classes, so they really needed to go in first and class state reevaluated after. Therein, I agree with the pace that this is being handled -- crew skill adjustments in 1.1, class adjustments in 1.2.

 

The one area I do agree with is that class mirrors should have been exact mirrors outside animations and other flavor items. To not do so causes all sorts of headaches (WoW racials, WAR "mirrors, etc). Fortunately for me, my Medic Op is very close if not an exact match to the Sawbones Scoundrel, so I'm not nearly as affected as some others.

 

Still, considering the above, class balance is pretty good for a game that just launched. No class sticks out as the "Bright Wizard" of SWTOR -- even the Concealment Ops isn't way overpowered in my opinion (could use a some downtuning, though with the lack of utility the Concealment Op should stay the undisputed king of 1v1 burst damaging, just not to the effect it is now), and the Biochem fix may go a bit to balance this class out better.

 

Lag and performance is an engine issue, which I would expect to take awhile to fix, so I wasn't expecting any miracles in 1.1 on this issue.

 

Class Balance Grade: B -- They're doing the right things in the order I expect them to do it. Some "mirror" issues could be covered sooner however...

Edited January 18, 2012 by Doki

[pherball]

Just in time for us early access people to unsubscribe.

[ptwonline]

I think the OP is reading a lot more into the 1.1 than is really there.

 

The game is new. The bugfixing and implementation process is without rolling out an entirely new build (like beta) is new. Content updates are new.

 

Anything as large and complex and with this many people working on it will have alot of kinks that need to be worked out. Whether they will do that successfully or not remains to be seen. but trying to judge what things will be like down the road based on their first larger patch is pretty much just a guess.

[ErrantMercenary]

I didn't cover class balance in my original post, and I probably should have, although this should probably be a seperate item since it affects both PvE and PvP equally. While not much class balance was covered, the nerfs to Cybertech (the crew skill on my main) and to Biochem were definitely needed, and these changes may significantly alter the balance of classes, so they really needed to go in first and class state reevaluated after. Therein, I agree with the pace that this is being handled -- crew skill adjustments in 1.1, class adjustments in 1.2.

 

The one area I do agree with is that class mirrors should have been exact mirrors outside animations and other flavor items. To not do so causes all sorts of headaches (WoW racials, WAR "mirrors, etc). Fortunately for me, my Medic Op is very close if not an exact match to the Sawbones Scoundrel, so I'm not nearly as affected as some others.

 

Still, considering the above, class balance is pretty good for a game that just launched. No class sticks out as the "Bright Wizard" of SWTOR

 

Class Balance Grade: B -- They're doing the right things in the order I expect them to do it. Some "mirror" issues could be covered sooner however...

 

Sage/Sorcerer healers in PvE are your Bright Wizards. I know i sound bitter, but I also come from the class most heavily affected. Imagine the following timeline:

 

1) Begin playing, take up Slicing as a crewskill (unawares of it's imbalance at launch)

2) Slicing Nerf occurs. Switch to Biochem (still unawares that I had taken a crew skill that was also broken). Take up Commando as my Advance Class, spec healer because it's what I do in MMOs. Always has been.

3) Take note of Trooper/Bounty Hunter imbalances, decide I'm going to ignore it because I'm a healer in the second place and I wasn't planning on PvPing in the first place.

4) Hit 50, begin running hard modes and ops.

5) Get ABSOLUTELY LAMBASTED by Sages in the healing and protection department, despite equal gear.

6) Switch to DPS to allow another Sage into the Ops group. Eventually end up sitting out Ops because of a full DPS roster.

7) No problem I'll just jump into PvP until class balance is restored and I can get back into being optimally effective in Ops. Step 3) comes back to bite me in the ***. Furthermore PvP is usually a parade of losses punctuated by a handful of wins at a time.

8) 1.1 sweeps in, destroying Ilum, nerfing Biochem (admittedly fair, even I can see that), adding MORE content but not addressing ANY of the shortcomings I face

 

Now, I know how MMOs work. I know that class balance will be an ever swinging pendulum, and in a year we'll all be saying "Boy do I remember when" but this game gets tougher and tougher to swallow when ONE aesthetic choice (being Republic as opposed to Empire) has dictated that I get the short end of every stick. I can either abandon an already sunken ship and waste the time invested to point, or simply wait for the time I've put in to payoff, neither of which let's me enjoy the fruits of my labor any time in the next 3-6 months or so.

[FlameLancer]

Did you just use that broken *** English to call someone out?

 

I'll tell you what kind of expert I am. I'm an expert that has been playing and beta testing MMO's for 15 years. I'm also a person who knows the 30 years history of MMO's. I'm also a person who know's first hand and through research the systems and mechanics that successful MMO's field as well as the failed and horrible mechanics others have used.

 

30 years or history to work with. 15 years of commercial success and failures to learn from and still companies produce the same broken and I say 100% predictably fail systems into their games.

 

 

So, what do you have for us YourFutureEx. I'm guessing nothing.

 

So wait, your an expert who, because he has done nothing but play video games for 15 yrs and have researched 30 yrs of MMO history? Pretty much half the gaming population can boast that same thing.

 

Only difference is you are no expert, you just play alot of games and your view on this game is exactly that, your view. If you want to complain so much about a game, why not just leave, stop complaining and find something else to add to your expert opinion

[YourFutureEx]

Did you just use that broken *** English to call someone out?

 

I'll tell you what kind of expert I am. I'm an expert that has been playing and beta testing MMO's for 15 years. I'm also a person who knows the 30 years history of MMO's. I'm also a person who know's first hand and through research the systems and mechanics that successful MMO's field as well as the failed and horrible mechanics others have used.

 

30 years or history to work with. 15 years of commercial success and failures to learn from and still companies produce the same broken and I say 100% predictably fail systems into their games.

 

 

So, what do you have for us YourFutureEx. I'm guessing nothing.

 

LOL... sure. Considering 30 years ago was January 1982 and there was no such thing as an MMO to speak of, I'd say you're full of it. The amount of common sense I have compared to your "beta testing MMO's for 15 years" puts it to shame. You won't dazzle any of us with your knowledge dude. Go Google something else that is pertinent to the conversation here. Just because you can tell us what the best kind of Hot Pockets are and the ingredients of Mt Dew by heart doesn't make you and expert on anything. Self proclamation is so 80's. Oh wait...

[Virre]

ROFL Yup the FIRST will certainly depict how the rest will go, this is Bioware's first MMO, I'd hardly say this will show in any way what the future holds for this game.

[YourFutureEx]

ROFL Yup the FIRST will certainly depict how the rest will go, this is Bioware's first MMO, I'd hardly say this will show in any way what the future holds for this game.

 

Agreed, these are the guys behind Mass Effect for cryin out loud. That was once step away from being an MMO, just needed the MMO part. LOL

[Bluetickone]

its unreal. BW could not have ****ed a 300m investment over faster than they did...wow! :eek: