Bracket Rage... only yourself to blame

[kevlarto]

Said it before, and I'll say it again - EXPERTISE HAS GOT TO GO!!

 

I'm sorry, but the idea of a PvP stat was idiotic when it was introduced in other games (especially WoW). It broke a ton of stuff back then, it breaks a lot of stuff now.

 

If Expertise was removed, we wouldn't need the bracket at all.

 

EDIT: And another thing, now people who are JUST hitting 50 (which is about 80% of the population, as far as I can tell based on what I see in my guild) are being thrown into WZs with decked out level 50s. It's not quite as horrible as fighting a geared 50 when you're 20, but it's still bad enough. This "fix" ultimately fixed nothing.

 

It just created another problem. One...drumroll please...once again IDENTICAL to the one people experience in WoW. Good job not learning a thing from watching Blizzard repeatedly blow its toes off with a shotgun, Bioware! Now you're doing it, and it's spectacular.

 

I agree 100% the problem was not bolstering it was always with expertise. Why companies seem they need to add such stat to armor is beyond me, it has never worked well in any other game either. At one point in beta when you could get expertise through all the levels, 50's in the warzone were not that much pf a problem, I enjoyed killing them on my level 20 or 30 toon. But when they removed the expertise from everyone but 50's, what were they thinking

[Kryptorchid]

First of all, calm down you're acting like a child. I can barely read your point through all the *s.

 

Secondly, that's great in a game where Stats aren't the main form of progression but they are. I could argue all I want for them to remove raids from the game because I want PVE progression to be based on how many gumdrops I can fit in my mouth but at the end of the day PVE is based on raids.

 

If you think the game should have a new kind of progression, that's a COMPLETELY different thread and is irrelevent to this one because this game is what it is. In the frame work of this game, with stat progression, a PVP stat is neccesary.

 

I appologize for the tone, and sorry for the profanity. That was just the culmination of me, literally, saying the exact same thing to people, who's only frame of reference is the broken stat progression model you see in WoW, on these forums since October 21, 2008.

 

To your last paragraph, I have shown countless times, that in a stat-progression game, a PvP stat is NOT the way to go, rather a scaling PvE-only stat (read no scaling of Endurance, Cunning, Aim, Crit, Surge, etc.) that works in Operations is a whole lot better for keeping PvP balanced AND keeping the current "grow in statistical strength" progression model that PvE is designed for.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Kryptorchid

[Zaskaszh]

So why are raiders more deserving of an advantage in PVP than people who PVP?

 

...cuz this is a PvE game first and foremost?

 

...because PvP is (rightfully) a secondary consideration?

 

...because the bulk of the playable content is PvE-oriented?

 

PvEers do more things ingame than PvPers who just hit warzones all day and then go and (until now) trade cap points on Ilum with zero risk or effort.

 

Face it, PvPers in SWTOR haven't done diddly to "earn" the gear they have; Bioware just threw it at them.

[Trackeri]

Said it before, and I'll say it again - EXPERTISE HAS GOT TO GO!!

 

I'm sorry, but the idea of a PvP stat was idiotic when it was introduced in other games (especially WoW). It broke a ton of stuff back then, it breaks a lot of stuff now.

 

. Good job not learning a thing from watching Blizzard repeatedly blow its toes off with a shotgun, Bioware! Now you're doing it, and it's spectacular.

 

1) you must not know the idea behind a pvp stat, e.g, to stop people from using one to steamroll the other ( walking into a op for the first time decked out in the equivalent of full Rakata gear, or people using top end pvp gear to face roll pvp by way of superior items, no pve item will ever be as useful for pvp because there's no expertise, no pvp item will be optimal for pve as expertise is a wasted stat pve)

 

Secondly, no, blizzard never made the same mistake, there's always been ways to acquire gear before hitting the level cap, and more recently gear up outside of it, through craftables or buying outdated pvp gear (several tiers down) through pve rewards, as opposed to the gated/grinded slow release you get from dailies here, not to mention at the time of release resilience helped prevent people from being killed so fast(defensive stat only), here it helps you kill people FASTER.

[Scoobings]

I appologize for the tone, and sorry for the profanity. That was just the culmination of me, literally, saying the exact same thing to people, who's only frame of reference is the broken stat progression model you see in WoW, on these forums since October 21, 2008.

 

To your last paragraph, I have shown countless times, that in a stat-progression game, a PvP stat is NOT the way to go, rather a scaling PvE-only stat (read no scaling of Endurance, Cunning, Aim, Crit, Surge, etc.) that works in Operations is a whole lot better for keeping PvP balanced AND keeping the current "grow in statistical strength" progression model that PvE is designed for.

 

That's an interesting way of looking at it, that I hadn't thought of. The problem that I see with that, from an ex-hardcore raider is that my friends and I used to joke around that WoW was dumbing down MMOs so much that eventually they would just add an "Awesome" stat and we would farm for the "chest piece of awesome" with "+6 to awesome."

 

It kind of sounds like, what that stat would impliment, is a dumbing down even further of stat progression in PVE. Which, from a PVP stand point, doesn't matter but from a PVEr's stand point the dumbing down of stats is progressing so fast that I would really be remorseful to see it progress to that point.

 

I think, as someone else mentioned, probably adding expertise on the lower level PVP gear would have been the way to go. It honestly never bothered me that people who PVPed more, or achieved a higher rank, had better gear than me because it really felt like they deserved it to me. The PVP stat is just a byproduct of a system that gives rewards to characters for progression.

 

There has to be some kind of incentive in MMOs I'm afraid. That's just what the public wants.

[Scoobings]

...cuz this is a PvE game first and foremost?

 

...because PvP is (rightfully) a secondary consideration?

 

...because the bulk of the playable content is PvE-oriented?

 

PvEers do more things ingame than PvPers who just hit warzones all day and then go and (until now) trade cap points on Ilum with zero risk or effort.

 

Face it, PvPers in SWTOR haven't done diddly to "earn" the gear they have; Bioware just threw it at them.

 

I used to be a hardcore raider and pvper in WoW back in college and I can tell you that your view is grossly mis-informed.

 

I will admit that gearing in SWTOR is a lot easier than in WoW (for PVP) however they invested probably more time than you did into getting their gear. Normal mode Eternity vault isn't very difficult and you're kidding yourself if you try to tell me otherwise.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Scoobings

[Dymensia]

Bottom line is - what do you want?

 

Do you want COMPETITIVE and FAIR and FUN PvP? Or do you want to steamroll over someone because you spent 138 hours grinding gear and they haven't yet? That's the main question.

 

Currently, it is overwhelmingly the latter. In order of importance, things are:

 

Gear -> Class -> Skill

 

What I want to see happening is,

 

Skill -> Class, and Gear being not a factor at all.

 

And I can't help but wonder about the people who object to this. Why, exactly? Maybe because without an overwhelming gear advantage you know deep down they're just scrubs?

 

What I was saying is that removing PvP stats doesn't fix that. You'd still have people at max level grinding out stronger gear as long as gear is a factor at all and gear is treated as a primary progression at max level.

 

Personally, I'd love to see all players of a class brought to the same stat levels for competitive PvP (warzones). However, PvP stats aren't the problem.

[gunslinger]

just laughing at all the whiners finding something new to whine about. i'll keep playing and being happy and enjoying the game. probably more so now that my level 25 toon does not have to face fully geared 50s in my state.

[Scoobings]

What I was saying is that removing PvP stats doesn't fix that. You'd still have people at max level grinding out stronger gear as long as gear is a factor at all and gear is treated as a primary progression at max level.

 

Personally, I'd love to see all players of a class brought to the same stat levels for competitive PvP (warzones). However, PvP stats aren't the problem.

 

I agree with your point about competitve PVP, however I disagree that WZs will be where competitive PVP happens. I think that should be in the RATED WZs, where it really is more official and should have the sanctioned stat tracking. Un-rated WZs I think gear should be factored in and no stat tracking.

 

That's just my 2 creds.

[Vant]

Someone didn't play PVP in wow before resilience, or has a really short term memory. Or maybe you played a mage or rogue? 2 Shots in MMOs aren't normal and that's why there is a PVP stat.

 

Actually, 2 shots are the way MMOs SHOULD BE!!!

 

The best PvP games I have ever played made it possible for players to be 2 shot essentially. When WoW went away from this, PvP in WoW was ruined. It turned what was fun into nothing but a gear grind, only less interesting, however all be it, more challenging (than boss fights).

 

Remember Asheron's Call? Ultima Online? Dark Age of Camelot?

 

In DAoC, My Scout would slaughter people before they could get within 10 meters of me. My Minstrel could do almost the same thing but just up close.

[DJStix]

This problem is the inherit problem in any MMO. People want new gear so they can stomp on less geared players. They feel that by spending more time playing the game, they should have a natural advantage over those who play less. This is true of pretty much any MMO that has a gear progression system. The problem is that this system is never fair. Skill isn't taken into account as much as gear is. That is just the nature of MMO's. Time spent is always greater than skill. Expertise is just a byproduct of this. Now whether or not it gives too big of an advantage or not is another issue. That can easily be fixed by messing with the % bonus to player damage dealt/received per point of expertise.

 

The main problem is in matchmaking. The game matches less geared players with more geared players. What should happen instead is that the game takes your average item level into account and matches you based off that. Heck, you could probably just match based off your valor level. I would go so far as to have two queues, one queue where gear is a factor, another where all players are given normalized stats. This would give players the choice of what they want to go up against. People who want their gear to matter will be happy and those who want a fair fight will be happy. Now whether one will be more popular than another and have less queue times, that's a different story, but I feel that players should have the choice to queue up with gear mattering and with gear not mattering.

[spicycookie]

I think you didn't play WOW vanilla. It was a lot worse without resilience. People who raided use to 2 shot full time PVPers 24/7 type. It was ridiculous.

 

Then they started with Resilience and PVPer's who PVP had the better PVP gear compared to full time raiders.

 

Expertise is a way to allow an upper advantage to those who PVP full time compared to hardcore raiders who just come in to PVP couple games and completely destroy PVPers.

 

Memory is a tricky thing, you only remember Resilience.

 

 

Said it before, and I'll say it again - EXPERTISE HAS GOT TO GO!!

 

I'm sorry, but the idea of a PvP stat was idiotic when it was introduced in other games (especially WoW). It broke a ton of stuff back then, it breaks a lot of stuff now.

 

If Expertise was removed, we wouldn't need the bracket at all.

 

EDIT: And another thing, now people who are JUST hitting 50 (which is about 80% of the population, as far as I can tell based on what I see in my guild) are being thrown into WZs with decked out level 50s. It's not quite as horrible as fighting a geared 50 when you're 20, but it's still bad enough. This "fix" ultimately fixed nothing.

 

It just created another problem. One...drumroll please...once again IDENTICAL to the one people experience in WoW. Good job not learning a thing from watching Blizzard repeatedly blow its toes off with a shotgun, Bioware! Now you're doing it, and it's spectacular.

[Halifax]

...cuz this is a PvE game first and foremost?

 

...because PvP is (rightfully) a secondary consideration?

 

...because the bulk of the playable content is PvE-oriented?

 

PvEers do more things ingame than PvPers who just hit warzones all day and then go and (until now) trade cap points on Ilum with zero risk or effort.

 

Face it, PvPers in SWTOR haven't done diddly to "earn" the gear they have; Bioware just threw it at them.

 

PvE is a joke. It's a static challenge that requires that rarely requires mastery to succeed and once its defeated its very rarely ever a challenge again.

 

PvP on the other hand is a dynamic encounter with other thinking players. They do things in unpredictable ways you are forced to constantly readjust your current strategy in order to succeed.

 

Hardest part of PvE? Is getting an ops with enough competent players who also want to complete PvE content.

[Dogfatherxx]

Am I the only one that thinks they fixed everything this patch. Great job to BW!!

[spicycookie]

They tried to match gear in the other game, but its flawed too because players would just take off their gear before they qued up.

 

There is no easy solution. No matter how many times you whine or complaint, every MMO is the same... you solve one issue, another arises.

 

If you play a MMO, you just hope for a somewhat balance based on your effort. If you pvp alot... you got the gear... you get to slaughter newbie 50s... simple they work their way up to the point where they can do the same to others.

[Kellindell]

You are correct sir !

 

The funny thing is, if you are level 40 with all the level 40 PvP gear, purple mods etc you are better with bolster then a fresh 50 is without bolster.

 

I noticed that with bolster, if your gear is the best it can be for your level you get alot more out of it, doesnt matter what level you are.

 

So a level 20 who has top of the line level 20 gear will be more powerful then a level 40 with older level 30-35 gear.

 

Expertise poops all over that system, because even if you have top of the line gear, that gear wont have expertise, which will make any level 50 with any kind of level 50 gear murder your face.

 

If they had done away with expertise, one bracket would have been fine. You would have just been responsible for keeping your gear up to date so you werent a liability against 50s. But having up to date gear is just a part of PvP, PvP stat or no PvP stat.

 

 

Said it before, and I'll say it again - EXPERTISE HAS GOT TO GO!!

 

I'm sorry, but the idea of a PvP stat was idiotic when it was introduced in other games (especially WoW). It broke a ton of stuff back then, it breaks a lot of stuff now.

 

If Expertise was removed, we wouldn't need the bracket at all.

 

EDIT: And another thing, now people who are JUST hitting 50 (which is about 80% of the population, as far as I can tell based on what I see in my guild) are being thrown into WZs with decked out level 50s. It's not quite as horrible as fighting a geared 50 when you're 20, but it's still bad enough. This "fix" ultimately fixed nothing.

 

It just created another problem. One...drumroll please...once again IDENTICAL to the one people experience in WoW. Good job not learning a thing from watching Blizzard repeatedly blow its toes off with a shotgun, Bioware! Now you're doing it, and it's spectacular.

[halltw]

Am I the only one that thinks they fixed everything this patch. Great job to BW!!

 

nope, count me in. Loving it.

[Parckie]

Said it before, and I'll say it again - EXPERTISE HAS GOT TO GO!!

 

I'm sorry, but the idea of a PvP stat was idiotic when it was introduced in other games (especially WoW). It broke a ton of stuff back then, it breaks a lot of stuff now.

 

If Expertise was removed, we wouldn't need the bracket at all.

 

EDIT: And another thing, now people who are JUST hitting 50 (which is about 80% of the population, as far as I can tell based on what I see in my guild) are being thrown into WZs with decked out level 50s. It's not quite as horrible as fighting a geared 50 when you're 20, but it's still bad enough. This "fix" ultimately fixed nothing.

 

It just created another problem. One...drumroll please...once again IDENTICAL to the one people experience in WoW. Good job not learning a thing from watching Blizzard repeatedly blow its toes off with a shotgun, Bioware! Now you're doing it, and it's spectacular.

 

Go get your pvp gear, and stop complaining about people being better than you rofl.

[Lokai]

expertise is a needed stat with out it raiders would roll into our warzones/illum and wreck us because they had gear and we didnt. PvP gear is a nightmare to balance with pve stats and never seen it done successfully in mmo's i've played(which is alot) expertise/resilence/toughness set a pver apart from a pvper and prevent pvers dominating pvp it also stops pvpers from rolling into pve and stoming things do to lack of certain key stats(or way it should be).

 

issue is that insteadof fixing bolster they used brackets so now we imperials have two choices roll republic, or deal with ques.

[iphonemilk]

Said it before, and I'll say it again - EXPERTISE HAS GOT TO GO!!

 

I'm sorry, but the idea of a PvP stat was idiotic when it was introduced in other games (especially WoW). It broke a ton of stuff back then, it breaks a lot of stuff now.

 

If Expertise was removed, we wouldn't need the bracket at all.

 

EDIT: And another thing, now people who are JUST hitting 50 (which is about 80% of the population, as far as I can tell based on what I see in my guild) are being thrown into WZs with decked out level 50s. It's not quite as horrible as fighting a geared 50 when you're 20, but it's still bad enough. This "fix" ultimately fixed nothing.

 

It just created another problem. One...drumroll please...once again IDENTICAL to the one people experience in WoW. Good job not learning a thing from watching Blizzard repeatedly blow its toes off with a shotgun, Bioware! Now you're doing it, and it's spectacular.

 

 

LOOK AT THE ROOT CAUSE THOUGH..

 

Why are those 50's decked out?? b/c for WEEKS now they've been getting free wins against lowbies.

 

The original problem was allowing 50's to pvp against lowbies in the first place. Should have never happened.

 

and actually if you had a bracket from day 1? maybe people wouldn't have rushed to 50 so fast.

[Tikume]

PvP gear should be for looks only, all stats should be the same for everyone and standardized for each class.

 

PvP should be fun competition all in itself, progession can surley be there, through levels, titles, cool looking gear etc. Server-wide fame wouldnt hurt either.

 

Giving the best gear to the players who have played the longest is a bad idea beacuse those players should not need a gear advantage in the first place, they already have experience, and it makes it a pain for new players when they reach lvl 50 to compete, beacuse they have to compete with players who not only have more eperience but also vastly superior stats and gear.

 

its a BAD idea.

[iphonemilk]

Go get your pvp gear, and stop complaining about people being better than you rofl.

 

having Gear doesn't mean you're better then someone who doesn't...

 

that's not a complaint that's a fact you moron.

[ColdSunHoth]

LOOK AT THE ROOT CAUSE THOUGH..

 

Why are those 50's decked out?? b/c for WEEKS now they've been getting free wins against lowbies.

 

The original problem was allowing 50's to pvp against lowbies in the first place. Should have never happened.

 

and actually if you had a bracket from day 1? maybe people wouldn't have rushed to 50 so fast.

 

^ This. Most of the 50s really suck, at least on my server. Its the gear that helps them.

[Covinous]

Someone's first MMO must have been WOW. 2 shots in MMOs never existed in the past when gear wasn't the sole progression model. UO, DAOC, and AC are games that had amazing PvP and no PvP stat.

 

So again, I am sorry your only experience in this genre is WoW and you think having a PvP stat is dogma, because you, along with the BioWare development team, are just some of WoW's sheeple that have ruined every game since it.

 

I doubt you ever played DAoC, because you could 1-2 shot people easily as a stealth class at 50.

[iphonemilk]

^ This. Most of the 50s really suck, at least on my server. Its the gear that helps them.

 

I see 50's who keyboard turn, walk into the fire. some of them even sometimes bring the huttball back to their own side confidently and they are geared up.

 

the other funny thing is, especially on my Server The Dead Weight these guys actually THINK they are good at PvP... it's very amusing.