KitRoakr Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 (edited) First I would like to say that I am enjoying this game. I am playing the game with some old friends from Star Wars Galaxies and some friends that are local (fellow college students and neighbors). I also would like to thank BioWare for keeping the Star Wars gaming alive. I am a huge Star Wars fan and love to enjoy the many aspects of its story. With that said, I would like to point out some thing that I see as a continuity and lore error. These are just how I see it and I do not want to pretend that I am some sort of authority on Star Wars, but I am a fan that has my own point of view. First, Imperial speciesism (not racism). Now… I know that the Empire was very discriminatory against non-human species in the movies and the Empire era Expanded Universe, but it seems to me that this ideal does not fit in this storyline period. Here is why: So... In this period, the Sith species (Sith Purebloods) are not yet extinct. These people are the origin of the Sith name and when combined with the Dark Jedi outcasts became what is to eventually become the Sith as we know them. So at this point in the timeline, the Sith are a mix of humans, sith pure bloods, and other species. Also, the Sith are the rulers of the Empire (hence The Sith Empire). But the Empire discriminates against non-humans? If I were a Sith pure blood Sith Lord, I think I might be pretty pissed to find one of my minions saying that I am beneath him because I am not a human. What do you think? Edited January 18, 2012 by KitRoakr I cought a spelling error. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikModi Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Yeah, that rings a bit of a false note with me, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zantul Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 (edited) At this time for the Sith Empire its 1.Sith Pure Blood/ which has human in it by the time of the game Sith and Humans mingled so much there is no such thing as a REAL pure blood. 2. Human in that order and only those species. everyone else is an alien. Remeber the Sith are foce sensitive and a Sith Lord is about parallel with a GRand Moff and he can NOT command a Sith (species) to do anything only ask him to. No idea where you picked up on other races or that Sith are considered alien? Where did you read that? Later on Sith of course became targets because of the rule of ONE. That only made us stronger because the backstabbing against eachother made us weak. With the rule of two.... Edited January 18, 2012 by Zantul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KitRoakr Posted January 18, 2012 Author Share Posted January 18, 2012 It would be cool to see if this catches the attention of the BW staff. I'd love to see what they have to say on the subject. If there is an element I am missing or if they see it as an oops as well. One thing is for sure. If they do recognize it as a mistake, then it would be extreemly expensive and dificult to fix, since it is so infused into the game through quest lines and voiceovers, just to name a couple reasons. Still... I would like to get some input from the developer team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxfirega Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 So... In this period, the Sith species (Sith Purebloods) are not yet extinct. These people are the origin of the Sith name and when combined with the Dark Jedi outcasts became what is to eventually become the Sith as we know them. So at this point in the timeline, the Sith are a mix of humans, sith pure bloods, and other species. Also, the Sith are the rulers of the Empire (hence The Sith Empire). But the Empire discriminates against non-humans? If I were a Sith pure blood Sith Lord, I think I might be pretty pissed to find one of my minions saying that I am beneath him because I am not a human. What do you think? Caveat: They don't have preference for just humans. They have high preference for humans and Sith Purebloods, as well as anyone that has Sith blood (the majority of those that intermingled with the Sith were human, courtesy the Dark Jedi outcasts and others). If you're human with no trace of Sith blood, you are trash to the rest of the Sith and a number of them will inform you of that fact (there's a number of quests in Korriban that suggest this very fact). If you're pure enough to show Sith traits, you're better then anyone that doesn't (supported by quests, as well). If you're neither of those, you're pathetic alien rubbish that doesn't deserve to grace the halls of the true Empire... unless you can use the Force. If you can at least use the Force, you rank above everyone else but true Sith. And they're going to tell you constantly that the only reason you matter is because of your Force sensitivity. I think it's perfectly fine as a system, honestly. Sith Pureblood > Human with Sith blood > Everyone else, even other humans that don't have Sith blood. Force Users > Everyone else. Totally works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruliya Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Well the Sith Purebloods are actually at the top of the Imperial pile. The Emperor is one for instance, as is half of the Dark Council. The rest are, as you rightly said, Human, and so are slightly lower than the Sith, but just as self-important and self-righteous as the Sith Purebloods. These two races are on pretty equal standing overall though. To all the other "alien" species in the Empire, well most of them are descendants from conquered worlds who were subjugated as slaves. Of course you'd look down on them, since they were bred from "mongrel" races - in the eyes of the Imperial Nobility anyhow. The Chiss are a secretive race, but actually have a somewhat okay standing within the Empire, but are still seen as a lesser race overall. To the best of my knowledge anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KitRoakr Posted January 18, 2012 Author Share Posted January 18, 2012 At this time for the Sith Empire its 1.Sith Pure Blood/ which has human in it by the time of the game Sith and Humans mingled so much there is no such thing as a REAL pure blood. 2. Human in that order and only those species. everyone else is an alien. No idea where you picked up on other races? Where did you read that? It's not a matter of reading it. It's a matter of playing the game. Between the Sith Inquisitor and Sith Warrior, you can play 6 species. So you can be a Zabrak or even a Twi'lek. Neither of which are Human or part human. So... No. Sith PBs and Humans are not the only Sith you can play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxfirega Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 It's not a matter of reading it. It's a matter of playing the game. Between the Sith Inquisitor and Sith Warrior, you can play 6 species. So you can be a Zabrak or even a Twi'lek. Neither of which are Human or part human. So... No. Sith PBs and Humans are not the only Sith you can play. And quest-givers generally (or have for me at least) given both my SW and SI some static for being aliens (they're both Zabraks). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zantul Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 It's not a matter of reading it. It's a matter of playing the game. Between the Sith Inquisitor and Sith Warrior, you can play 6 species. So you can be a Zabrak or even a Twi'lek. Neither of which are Human or part human. So... No. Sith PBs and Humans are not the only Sith you can play. Well since you are a Sith ans passed your trials you earned some respect. However climbing the ranks in the real empire not the game would have been dificult as even though you are force sensitive you are still a alien race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KitRoakr Posted January 18, 2012 Author Share Posted January 18, 2012 And quest-givers generally (or have for me at least) given both my SW and SI some static for being aliens (they're both Zabraks). I'll bet that playing Zabrak Sith has got to produce some cool visuals in the gameplay! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KitRoakr Posted January 18, 2012 Author Share Posted January 18, 2012 Well since you are a Sith ans passed your trials you earned some respect. However climbing the ranks in the real empire not the game would have been dificult as even though you are force sensitive you are still a alien race. That does not make sense. It is not the Sith that are discriminitory. It was Palpatine. And he passed that on to the Empire. In this story arc, the Sith are still ruled (in part) by non humans, and those non- humans are the revered forfathers, so to speek. So the speciesism still seems way out of place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zantul Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 (edited) That does not make sense. It is not the Sith that are discriminitory. It was Palpatine. And he passed that on to the Empire. In this story arc, the Sith are still ruled (in part) by non humans, and those non- humans are the revered forfathers, so to speek. So the speciesism still seems way out of place. Please name a few high ranking imperial from this time that are of non Sith or Human origin?? What books are you referring to? If I remember correctly the Sith empire started with Sith pire bloods and humans that were fleeing the republic. They founded the dark council and the Sith empire on Korriban and remaind silent for 2000 years building up their empire.... . They had to conquer other worlds with alien races, however they had zero to do with the founding of the empire. Suer they were slaves and aliens but not founding fathers or anything special.. ? Here is the skinny im afraind ur mistake sir Find in the empires history where you see a founding fathers are only sith and human http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_Empire I win thank you next question please... Edited January 18, 2012 by Zantul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KitRoakr Posted January 18, 2012 Author Share Posted January 18, 2012 Please name a few high ranking imperial from this time that are of non Sith or Human origin?? What books are you referring to? If I remember correctly the Sith empire started with Sith pire bloods and humans that were fleeing the republic. They founded the dark council and the Sith empire.... there were NO other races even remotely close to them. They had to conquer other worlds with alien races.. ? Here is the skinny im afraind ur mistake sir Find in the empires history where you see a founding fathers are only sith and human http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_Empire I win thank you next question please... I was just looking at that very same website. Vitiate is the current Dark Lord of the Sith and Emperor of the Sith Empire. He is NOT Human. Darth Howl is not Human (species unidentified). Darth Jadus's species is unknown. Darth Marr is not human (species unknown). The other 5 members of the Dark Council are Humans. So the Emperor is not human and 3 of the council are not human. How does that mean that human are the only species worthy of respect in the Sith Empire? Especially when you include the point that Humans are only 1/6th of the species that can be played as a Sith (only considering SIs and SWs). So... No. You don't automatically win. Especially when you cite a reference that supports my thought process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KitRoakr Posted January 18, 2012 Author Share Posted January 18, 2012 I can see individual characters being descriminitory, but not the Empire itself. After all... In a galaxy spanning environment, you WILL have all types. But an entity that is ruled by mixed species does not seem likely to discriminate against all but one species, especially when the Emperor is not that 'superior' species himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zantul Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 (edited) I was just looking at that very same website. Vitiate is the current Dark Lord of the Sith and Emperor of the Sith Empire. He is NOT Human. Darth Howl is not Human (species unidentified). Darth Jadus's species is unknown. Darth Marr is not human (species unknown). The other 5 members of the Dark Council are Humans. So the Emperor is not human and 3 of the council are not human. How does that mean that human are the only species worthy of respect in the Sith Empire? Especially when you include the point that Humans are only 1/6th of the species that can be played as a Sith (only considering SIs and SWs). So... No. You don't automatically win. Especially when you cite a reference that supports my thought process. But they are Sith Vitate is Sith? that is what I said? I said the Sith empire was founded by humans and Sith? Vitate is Sith pure blood race. I asked you to name high ranking imperial officials that are not Sith or Human not Darths. You named Darths, I didnt ask for you to name Darths as being a Darth and being part of the Sith Empire can be two different things especially when trhrough out history HUNDREDS of Sith Darths stasrted their own empire or tried to. Its the Sith way. Darth does not mean high rank in the Sith Empire. A Darth can leave the Empire alltogether and call himself a Darth. So again name me some HIGH ranking imperial officials from the Sith Empire that are NOT humans OR Sith. Well its abvious you are trolling this post here is your info on Darth Howl... You didnt even give me an alien race LOL Darth Howl is HUMAN cut and paste frmo the WIKI Darth Howl was a male Human Dark Lord of the Sith who served the resurgent Sith Empire as a member of the Emperor's Dark Council during the Cold War. In 3,643 BBY, Darth Howl and his fellow Councilors granted permission for a lesser Sith Lord known as Darth Chratis, and his apprentice, Eldon Ax, to pursue and eliminate an Imperial fugitive known as Lema Xandret. Thank you I win. Edited January 18, 2012 by Zantul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asrei Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 (edited) I can see individual characters being descriminitory, but not the Empire itself. After all... In a galaxy spanning environment, you WILL have all types. But an entity that is ruled by mixed species does not seem likely to discriminate against all but one species, especially when the Emperor is not that 'superior' species himself. You're right,the empire discriminating against non-humans wouldn't make sense, but, as others have pointed out a few times in this thread, the empire doesn't do that. The "superior" Species it the Sith pure bloods, humans are a close second due to the Dark Jedi that inter-bread with the Original Sith. Edited January 18, 2012 by Asrei Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhudian Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Limiting the number of species that can hold powerful positions is extremely useful in consolidating power. The interests, desires, and emotional reactions of humans are narrow and predictable. Further, these facets of humanity can be manipulated en masse much more easily than if you had to deceive and manipulate Duros, Gran, Wookiees, Trandoshans, Mon Cals, Rodians, etc. The best you can do to attain power in such diversity is to rise above the infighting that you also work to inspire. In the end, though, you aren't going to have the kind of galaxy-dominating power you want as a Sith Lord if you can't wield the people as a cohesive weapon. That doesn't mean you have to hate or feel threatened by the aliens, but the impossibility of integrating their needs with your goals does limit them to being useful as outsiders--mercenaries, contractors and the like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zantul Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I was just looking at that very same website. Vitiate is the current Dark Lord of the Sith and Emperor of the Sith Empire. He is NOT Human. Darth Howl is not Human (species unidentified). Darth Jadus's species is unknown. Darth Marr is not human (species unknown). The other 5 members of the Dark Council are Humans. So the Emperor is not human and 3 of the council are not human. How does that mean that human are the only species worthy of respect in the Sith Empire? Especially when you include the point that Humans are only 1/6th of the species that can be played as a Sith (only considering SIs and SWs). So... No. You don't automatically win. Especially when you cite a reference that supports my thought process. Well its abvious you are trolling this post here is your info on Darth Howl... You didnt even give me an alien race LOL Darth Howl is HUMAN cut and paste frmo the WIKI Darth Howl was a male Human Dark Lord of the Sith who served the resurgent Sith Empire as a member of the Emperor's Dark Council during the Cold War. In 3,643 BBY, Darth Howl and his fellow Councilors granted permission for a lesser Sith Lord known as Darth Chratis, and his apprentice, Eldon Ax, to pursue and eliminate an Imperial fugitive known as Lema Xandret. Thank you I win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kekkles Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 To be fair, over 98% of the Sith Empire's population has Sith blood, regardless of species. Don't believe me? Run the Foundry on the Empire side and listen to a certain droid. However, yes, the Sith Empire is consciously speciesist. If you are not Human or Sith Pureblood (which are a mix of human and the original Sith race... Pureblood is a misnomer - their description even says as much) you are looked down upon. Even though my Zabrak is a Sith Warrior, he is still looked down upon - but he is Sith, so he has some respect. To quote Darth Baras about Nomen Karr's Padawan, "Is she human, or one of the Jedi's damned aliens?!" Even the Republic is pro-Human, as when running quests with my Jedi Knight, this was brought up during several quests. Humans run the galaxy - everyone else is our *****. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weezyfb Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 You are mistaken, it does fit. The sith empire are the ones who fled korriban after the great hyperspace war, mostly human and red skin sith, who intermarried. The redskins you see know are human with some or little "sith pureblood". So they are the main power and have been isolated for a long time. The aliens they have encountered have been eitehr slaves or conquests. Most other aliens are from the republic, so yes the speciesm is understandable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediArchives Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Sith Purebloods are above Humans in the Sith Empire. Anything other than Purebloods and humans are treated like dirt...unless they are powerful Sith Lords. So no, there is no continuity error here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zantul Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 You are mistaken, it does fit. The sith empire are the ones who fled korriban after the great hyperspace war, mostly human and red skin sith, who intermarried. The redskins you see know are human with some or little "sith pureblood". So they are the main power and have been isolated for a long time. The aliens they have encountered have been eitehr slaves or conquests. Most other aliens are from the republic, so yes the speciesm is understandable Think of it as USA lets say tommorow an ALIEN on human spieces arrives at earth and says hay I want to be a high ranking official? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gereon Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 it is more like: force sensitives>humans>all other races thats the reason why you can be an alien sw or si Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckmann Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Let us also not forget that Zabraks can also belong to the Imperial nobility. So yeah. Imperial Speciecism doesn't really make sense in this part of galactic history at all. I've got no idea why they went for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceciltaru Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 While the idea of species-ism may not make sense to most, it is there, and as others have pointed out, it goes Sith -> human -> all other aliens. I'm going to wrap the below in spoiler tags, simply because it involves my experience playing a Chiss operative. At points in the Hutta class quests, I have gotten a sense that my Imperial status is somewhat unique, and the other aliens are wary of my position. When I got to Dromund Kaas, more of the same, even from other Imperials. Fast forward to meeting Keeper and Darth Jandus, and all of a sudden, I'm feeling honored to be in the position I'm in, even though from some of Keeper's reactions, which may just be to my dialogue choices, I can tell that he doesn't respect me as much. Actually, maybe its not really species-ism, but elitism. You have the ruling class (Sith), the military (Imperials), and then everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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