Malastare Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Actually the swedish courts have already ruled that a mouseclick isnt leagally binding and dont replace a signature. And to have a legal contract of any sort you need a signature Feel free to argue that. If you never agreed, then you're saying you shouldn't have access to the account and Bioware is free to cancel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malastare Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Probably only works in america where the people lacks rights against the corporations. As much as I agree with you, you'll find that its easier to apply than you think. My experience with this comes form Steam, which deals with far more international customers than Bioware does. The situation is very simple: Bioware (or Steam) is not required to provide you with service (games). They agree to provide you service if you agree to the terms. If you say that the terms aren't legally binding, then you are saying that they are not legally required to provide you with service, either. People used this to get refunds for Steam games... at the cost of losing the rest of their account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudbynight Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Correct, yes we do. And those laws say that if you agree to a legal document and undersign that you accept itr, WHICH YOU HAVE TO DO IN ORDER TO PLAY THE GAME, then you are accepting of the agreement and are still bound by it. You can't turn around, a month later amd say, "oops, changed my mind..." The EULA is a binding agreement, which you have accepted. Did you bother to read it? No, then you commited fraud my friend and in doing so just nullified all of you rights. That's part of EU law as well. /thread! Incorrect. In the EU that only applies to businesses. Individuals cannot sign away their rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudbynight Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Er... you're missing the point. 10am to 4pm in Austin, TX would be 5pm to 11pm in Paris. That would be putting the maintenance period over the real peak times in Europe. Here's an idea: Why don't we ask Bioware to pick the stretch of time where the lowest total number of players --across the entire world-- are playing the game and do it then. I wonder what time range that would be.... I think you are missing the point. Why don't we ask Bioware to run separate maintenance windows for the US and the EU like, you know, so many other MMORPGs do (like WoW for example) PST = GMT -8 EU goes from GMT to GMT +4 So there is a 12 hour time difference from one end to the other. Thinking you can choose a time suitable across such a wide time spread is just silly. Sorry, when I say silly what I actually mean is stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudbynight Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I think right now they simply don't have the people to maintain 2 separate schedules on server maintenance. EU servers are in Ireland. Ireland has a high number of suitably educated people with relevant expertise. Ireland has seen huge number of IT companies go under recently. Ireland has one of the highest rates of unemployment in Europe. - I don't think finding the people will be much of an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skarion Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Lets compromise EU can have a seperate maintenance however eu sub price can raise. That basically sums up this entire thread (which is now on its 4th or 5th reincarnation..thats over 500 posts ? correct me if i'm wrong). European players asking for fairness with scheduled mantainence times. Americans coming here(see above quote) and...i dont know how else to put it...talking CRAP. (there are actually rules for constructive posting so i dont know how half of you dont get your posts deleted anyway). I'm waiting to see what they are gunna do in Oceania..i mean, if they get seperate mantainence times then BW are in for a **** storm. The fact that this thread has run and run, and shows no sign of ever disappering (unlike x amount of european players already) means that they will have to address this at somepoint. The lack of communication from BW is actually staggering. SWG back in the day had better communication from its Devs...much better actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HolyGigi Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I've already canceled my sub because of this. I can deal with crappy end game, unbalanced stuff. They can work that out. But I cant deal with paying for a game and being unable to play it. We have at least 2 maintenance windows each week during EU day time. And on top of that, we didnt have any communication from a dev regarding this. We were a group of 4 that started playing swtor at the same time. Now only one of us plays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinge Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Didn't Bioware say they were looking at this issue and would be providing an update soon? Be nice to get an update on if anything will ever change so I can make an informed decision about whether or not to carry on paying for this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oneirophrenia Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) Correct, yes we do. And those laws say that if you agree to a legal document and undersign that you accept itr, WHICH YOU HAVE TO DO IN ORDER TO PLAY THE GAME, then you are accepting of the agreement and are still bound by it. You can't turn around, a month later amd say, "oops, changed my mind..." The EULA is a binding agreement, which you have accepted. Did you bother to read it? No, then you commited fraud my friend and in doing so just nullified all of you rights. That's part of EU law as well. /thread! Sorry but various U.S. district and 7th/8th circuit courts disagree with you, on several occasions. Do some research on the subject before commenting. The EULA as a whole is not *automatically* legally binding. The enforceability of the EULA varies from case to case, court to court. In fact, many EULAs were ruled to be contracts of adhesion or flat out unconscionable, thus losing all legal backing offered by contract laws. This should be common sense because like most contracts, EULAs aren't subjected to State/DoJ judicial review when it is written so it could very easily contain clauses that runs contrary to consumer protection laws or worse. The reason why shrinkwrap licenses are hot debated and contested is because the end user has already purchased the product before being allowed to read the actual agreement. The flip side of the coin is that if the user disagrees with the agreement, they do reserve the right to return the product. Still, there are still many cases where returning the product is simply unfeasible, such as when a company orders software in bulk for commercial applications or if an individual purchased the software from an overseas vendor and the cost of shipping is prohibitive. Some stores won't even accept the return of opened software packages because the customer has already had access to the product registration code/CD key. Yet, if the customer does not open the package and install the product, how can he make the informed decision of whether to accept the EULA or not? The bottom line is that no side has the final word on this issue which is why it is decided on a case by case basis. That is a fact. The /thread is premature and certainly untrue, particularly when it involves armchair legal opinions. Edited February 10, 2012 by Oneirophrenia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maidel Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 That basically sums up this entire thread (which is now on its 4th or 5th reincarnation..thats over 500 posts ? correct me if i'm wrong).. Actually 5000 posts, they remake after each 1000. And all these people saying that the Eula is binding in the EU (specifically the UK in my case) really do need to get a clue before posting. People have posted quite a few reasons why its not binding, but THE most important one is that contracts have to be signed at the point of sale. The Eula is not signed at the point of sale, its imposed after the sale has taken place. This is applicable if you are buying the game online or in the store. Its also applicable for renewing your subscription because it appears after you have already paid. Therefore its utterly unenforcable in law for either the game being bought, or a subscription being paid for. Not to mention it overides statutory rights of the consumer, all of which have to be specifically agreed with the consumer before the sale takes place, and even then arent legally binding in most cases. Statutory rights tend to only be overridable in the case of corportation to corporation contracts where statutory rights are overidden on both sides, not imposed on one side by the other. Bascially, the eula aint worth the kilobites its written on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudbynight Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Still no update after their discussions on this last week? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aavarn Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I am pleased BW are patching frequently to address the issues found. However as an EU player I am getting frustrated by the insistence on patching EU servers at the same time as the US. They have presumably chosen the time slot for US patching to minimise disruption to US players. Patching typically starts at 8am GMT in Europe and finishes at 1pm. I live in eastern europe currently so that means 10 am to 3 pm. The same consideration should be given to EU players as is given to US players and we should also be patched starting from 2 am GMT. Other MMOs (especially the big one) manage to understand this. The only reasonable alternative is to reduce the price of the EU subscription relative to the US subscription since we have less playtime available (variable discount based on daylight hours lost) e.g. using sample numbers: 29 days in february, 4 patches. patches finished at 10am CST, 5pm CET - thats 7 hours of day time play loss in the EU compared to the US). 7*4 = 28 total hours of play lost relative to the US = a 4% discount (or a free day added) to all EU players. When it gets cheaper to patch at different times compared to the discounts being given then different patching times could be implemented - in the mean time EU players are being penalised (they are paying for the policy) If there is a considered reason for this policy it would be helpful to hear it officially. Maybe its the issues around different areas having content before each other - although actually the time of day its available in the relevant countries is more relevant, maybe its just easier (and cheaper) to do it this way for now and there are plans to change in the future when the game is more stable - but it would be good to see that this is recognised as an issue and is either being considered or has already and what the rationale behind it is. Either way I would advocate patching of servers being carried out at a time zone relative to the geographical area that the server is located in (which even could table the idea of separate patching times for west coast and east coast us servers.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aavarn Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) And for those people that have suggested that this would lead to EU players creating characters on US servers to play in downtime - seriously? Yeah sure I would want to create some character that I play for like, 16 hours a month, inevitably would be unguilded and wouldn't have the benefit of having a level 50 character on the same server to twink them. It has to be said that the vast majority of posts from US players on this thread are simply troll posts. It is not your issue, please don't post. As the bulgarians would say: да ти го на чукам. Edited February 12, 2012 by Paralassa content Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudbynight Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Anyone else going to mention this topic in response to the SWTOR feedback request emails? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamsterboom Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 i was ticked with server downtime considering timezones. but then a freind pointed out to me that we all get the same content at the same time. no matter what timezone. thinking of this made me think it's not so bad and having it off means that people like me who genrally don't have lie in's.. quite good .. conisdeing i sleep during the day anyhow due to night shifts but still. people are still gonna complain , yes it's a US company so they are gonna run downtime for their people to work, not because a few people here and there need the game to be running when their awake .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gokkus Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Is this thread still here? Maintenance is always going to be at a bad time for someone. And I think its clear that the maintenance is not during peak houres, since it is during the day on a week-day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadpooled Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 bumping this so BW dont think they can make a 'quick, pacify the EUs' comment on the 29th Jan - http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=2280995#post2280995 we're still waiting 2 weeks after your 'we are discussing it this week' comment, even more so now you've announced the Aussies release date and they have maint in the middle of the evening slap bang in the middle of what the NA players call 'prime-time' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tridius Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Keep this thread going until there really is only 1 patch/maintenance window in a week. Betting 50k credits on Space Slug West server that another downtime will occur before next Tuesday. Another 100k credits that it will start between 2am-4am CST. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudbynight Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 yes it's a US company so they are gonna run downtime for their people to work, not because a few people here and there need the game to be running when their awake .. Yes, getting staff in Texas to come into work in the middle of the night sounds like just what they all want. With this game now launching in Asia/Pac are Bioware going to try and still run with a single maintenance window globally? They can't make a mistake that stupid can they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oneirophrenia Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) people are still gonna complain , yes it's a US company so they are gonna run downtime for their people to work, not because a few people here and there need the game to be running when their awake .. That's not how it works in the business world. BW may be a U.S. based company but the moment they start taking on international clients, they are subjected to the rules and regulations of those foreign nations. In the globalized economy of today, there are few companies that can make it big without expanding their international presence, as well as adjusting their strategies to the ever changing foreign environments. This includes mass market gaming companies. Being based in the U.S. is no excuse for companies to force international customer to adhere to their schedule. That is a recipe for dissatisfied customers and failure, guarenteed. I sometimes deal with Asia based departments within my company (not even clients) and I even have to adjust my schedule to reflect theirs. I will even go a step further and say that if I had international clients, I would without a doubt be working "around their schedule" and not around mine. If I didn't want to work those odd hours from time to time, I wouldn't have bothered to take those clients on in the first place. You can't have it both ways and you can not tell your customers "hey, I know you pay me money but you also have to work around my hours". This is simply common sense in the business world. Edited February 16, 2012 by Oneirophrenia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudbynight Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) I have US based customers and I talk to them at times convenient to them. If I asked US based customers to talk to me at times convenient to me I would go out of business. Funnily enough that is the reason why I am able to play SWTOR sometimes during the morning. Edited February 17, 2012 by spudbynight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandrax Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) bumping this so BW dont think they can make a 'quick, pacify the EUs' comment on the 29th Jan - http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=2280995#post2280995 we're still waiting 2 weeks after your 'we are discussing it this week' comment, even more so now you've announced the Aussies release date and they have maint in the middle of the evening slap bang in the middle of what the NA players call 'prime-time' Indeed. Stephen Reid promised some info, we've received none, not even a 'sorry folks but this is an issue taking longer to look at than we thought, update coming, just not soon'. I'm done here now. I have three days left on my sub and I will not be renewing until the EU maintenance times are adjusted. Fun game, but all the downtime is a joke, I'm not paying for downtime during the daytime and sometimes during peak hours whilst US players get theirs at night time. BioWare just refuse to engage with their EU customers and treat them equally to their US customers. Fine if they want to do that, but I will not be paying to be treated as second best. Edited February 17, 2012 by Mandrax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlakrar Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) "No info before 31/1/12 update! Here we are on the 17/2/12 ... still no update/info on their discussions? :mad: Edited February 17, 2012 by Vlakrar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kthx Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 It has to be said that the vast majority of posts from US players on this thread are simply troll posts. Any change that affects the allocation of developer resources affects the entire player base, not simply those who play in Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kthx Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) Actually the swedish courts have already ruled that a mouseclick isnt leagally binding and dont replace a signature. And to have a legal contract of any sort you need a signature I don't believe this to be true at all. From Svensk Distanshandels Branschregler: 5.2 Beställning via Internet Om säljaren publicerat en hemsida för beställning via Internet skall en beställning kräva att köparen åtminstone - Markerar sitt köpintresse i ett särskilt steg. - På ett enkelt sätt får möjlighet att läsa igenom både detaljerna i beställningen och avtalsvillkoren och att bekräfta detta i ett andra steg. - I ett tredje steg bekräftar själva beställningen och accepterar avtalsvillkoren. Information om vilka steg som krävs, enligt ovan, ska klart och otvetydigt anges innan köparen behöver lämna ut personuppgifter eller påbörjar sin beställning. Too long; don't read Swedish: No requirement for a signature. Edited February 17, 2012 by Kthx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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