Why be mediocre when you can be exceptional? How about some innovation?

[TheHeadCapper]

Phantasy Star Online did it before DCUO, in fact they released Phantasy Star Universe, which flopped massively before a year was up.

 

When I tried DCUO all I saw was "PSU with DC character skins", lo and behold 11 months later they went F2P "as it was always intended to be", as the lead designer said.

 

In their defense there was actually stories a year before it came out that it was going to be Free to play. That was the initial plan. I remember reading about it shortly before champions lost their marvel license and well before DC was released.

Edited January 18, 2012 by TheHeadCapper

[Dreossk]

With that level of technology, there is no reason to think that they can't have material that float and electronics that can take water with no problem. You just have to stop for a minute and start using your imagination and you'll come up with a solution to the whole thing. Edited January 18, 2012 by Dreossk

[Abriael]

The game DOES innovate. It applies to the genre concepts that have never been applied to it, which is part of the literal meaning of "innovation".

 

It may not be the kind of innovation you're looking for, but that's a different story.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Abriael

[TheHeadCapper]

With that level of technology, there is no reason to think that they can't have material that float and electronics that can take water with no problem.

 

Still sounds lame IMO. It's just my opinion though you are free to have your own, just don't try to force it on me

[Dreossk]

It's enough for it to be in the game and it's all it takes. They will have to go there eventually, they can't stick to the bare minimum we currently have. Edited January 18, 2012 by Dreossk

[Zannis]

I love how people ask the Bioware 'simply innovate'! Like it's something that anyone can casually do.

 

If innovation were so easy to come by, every game, song, movie, book, and tv show ever produced would be a perfect 10.

 

The OPs ideas for end game planets sound terrible in my opinion. Grinding out waves of PvE bots to capture map based objectives doesn't sound as mind shattering as he makes it out to be.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Zannis

[GOCOLTS]

UI flaws, bugs, and other issues aside, the leveling process in this game is enjoyable and refreshing. No, this isn't the first MMO to have a story (that's what is in those little paragraphs of text that most of you disregard), but I did find the quality of the story for the Jedi Knight and Consular to be above average when compared to other titles. Great job!

 

By far my largest problem with the game (other than the missing UI features that are standard in just about any other AAA title) is that it all comes to a screeching halt at level 50. It is almost like I am taken from a galaxy far, far away and tossed back into Azeroth/Telara/Hyboria.

 

Suddenly all I have to do is:

 

• Grind daily quests for commendations.
  
• Grind "PvP" arenas for commendations.
  
• Grind raids for a chance at progressing my character and commendations.
  

 

There is no more story progression. There is no more non item-based character progression. This is where SWTOR becomes a carbon copy of every other loot treadmill out on the market. Why?

 

Why should I stay here and do the exact same crap I can do in all of those other games I quit when I was faced with the same predicament? Why is it that you chose the same shallow excuse for an end game as every other hyped-and-flopped* loot treadmill that has come out in the past eight years? I get the sneaking suspicion that people burn through MMOs because they're looking for something new and innovative rather than the same old stuff that they were doing (and obviously grew tired of) in their previous game of choice. Not only are more and more players growing absolutely sick of this lazy end game design, it takes far more time and effort to develop static, scripted content than it does for players to consume it. You'll never outpace the hardcore and/or the competent mainstream players.

 

You have the Star Wars IP. The game is set during a time of great conflict between the Sith Empire and the Galactic Republic. Numerous other factions are involved that are trying to take advantage of the situation and sew chaos or make a hefty profit. Use this potential for something other than making a World of Riftaionconancraft clone.

 

Why not have entire PvP planets where the sole purpose is to control valuable crafting resource nodes for your faction so that you can craft "raid quality" gear and prevent the opposition from doing so themselves? What if by capturing this planet the entire faction gained a buff that allowed them to gain high amounts of legacy XP, or gave them higher chances to successfully reverse engineer crafted goods, or even gave them massive credit boosts? Why not have player-created fortifications that must be defended/sieged but generate rewards for the faction who built and maintains them such as rare crafting schematics and resources?

 

Why not have entire PvE planets where the mobs (let's say White Maw pirates) have AI and actually assault your faction's bases as your faction struggles to regain control of that sector of the world? Why not have points of interest on this planet that must be captured and held from the AI (that gets progressively more challenging) that give you control of valuable resource nodes or maybe even access to extremely difficult but short dungeons and/or raids.

 

On top of this, why not have an alternate advancement system (or turn the Legacy system into this) that gives even more purpose to playing after the level cap? You could open this up and make the rewards be new abilities (including the ability to equip blasters as Jedi/Sith, etc.) in addition to statistical bonuses and other perks.

 

You can do so much more than be yet another mediocre grind-or-quit MMO, yet you've chosen to go down this road. Your stated goals are to pump out more daily quests, flashpoints, and operations for people to grind. Is that it? Do you really think that will hold a long-term audience when every single game that has attempted to emulate this World of Warcraft style of end game has lost a majority of their subscribers after a short time?

 

I'm very disappointed with this game the level cap. I want this game to succeed, but the lack of wisdom and apparent lethargy on the part of the developers genuinely makes me angry. I'm tired of seeing the genre stagnate with nothing but loot treadmill after loot treadmill being released. It makes me wish I had gone into game design rather than architecture. I honestly expected better from the people that brought us Baldur's Gate, KOTOR, and other great titles. Please say you'll actually do more than ensure this is just another mediocre game in an ocean of mediocre games.

 

*Flopped meaning suffered massive subscription losses shortly after launch. See: Rift, Warhammer, AION (NA), Age of Conan, etc.

 

TL;DR: Please innovate. Don't release nothing but operations and flashpoints. Use the IP to its fullest. Make open-world content for PvE/PvP players that is dynamic, engaging, and not grind-based. The longest-lasting content is player-impacted (dynamic) content, not scripted flashpoints and operations that we blow through in a fraction of the time you spent developing it.

 

It's funny, when I posted this exact same thing, I got flamed and told to go back to wow. huh...

 

The pvp solar system idea is one I posted about a month ago, and several times since. I envisioned open world battles with speeders and walkers. They could have space missions that actually impact the ground battle (aka take out the AA guns, take out walkers, other fighters etc.) and an actual reason to do it.

 

If your faction controls a planet, your companions get special missions they can go on that give you uber loot that can be used to make gear that's actually worth wearing. If you control all the planets in a certain system you get uber UBER missions and corresponding loot.

 

Races on Tattooine that you can bet on. And even better than that, YOU CAN RACE TOO! Just think of the possibilities with crafting if you could make a speeder that you can either race in, or sell on the galactic trade thingy.

 

I mean c'mon, the possibilities are literally endless!

[GOCOLTS]

I love how people ask the Bioware 'simply innovate'! Like it's something that anyone can casually do.

 

If innovation were so easy to come by, every game, song, movie, book, and tv show ever produced would be a perfect 10.

 

The OPs ideas for end game planets sound terrible in my opinion. Grinding out waves of PvE bots to capture map based objectives doesn't sound as mind shattering as he makes it out to be.

 

just because other companies have apparently signed a strict "no innovation, must follow the wow/rift/conan/warhammer/aion mold" agreement, doesn't mean BW has to sign it.

[Dreossk]

In fact, one of their chief said that going away from WoW would be stupid because WoW was like the best thing in the world. Edited January 18, 2012 by Dreossk

[BadgeredMushroom]

The game DOES innovate. It applies to the genre concepts that have never been applied to it, which is part of the literal meaning of "innovation".

 

It may not be the kind of innovation you're looking for, but that's a different story.

 

How does it do that? Please share.

[BadgeredMushroom]

I love how people ask the Bioware 'simply innovate'! Like it's something that anyone can casually do.

 

If innovation were so easy to come by, every game, song, movie, book, and tv show ever produced would be a perfect 10.

 

The OPs ideas for end game planets sound terrible in my opinion. Grinding out waves of PvE bots to capture map based objectives doesn't sound as mind shattering as he makes it out to be.

 

It actually is pretty easy to do. This is what makes me so angry with the genre in general. Few people are trying to do anything innovative at all, and when they do they don't utilize it to it's full potential. See Rift for a perfect example of what I mean when I say wasted innovation.

 

Sorry you don't like the PvE alternative. See, the problem with PvE is that in some way or another it will involve constant attention from the developers. As players we will likely consume the content faster than they can add more or add to the existing content. Once we learn the AI's tactics it will become somewhat grind-like, I agree.

 

However, players are a different animal. The PvP alternative would remain fresher for longer (until players grew bored with the terrain) due to our ability to adapt and adjust on the fly and learn from our mistakes. Until we make a suitable AI it will eventually feel like a grind, but I much prefer capturing and holding points for guaranteed rewards to farming the same exact bosses every week for a chance that I might get a reward. I strongly dislike Skinner Box design that leads players on with a carrot on a stick.

[BobTheTeepo]

How does it do that? Please share.

 

Fully voiced.

Multiple dialogue choices (that are voiced) for the main character, that change rewards and story outcome.

Legacy system (allows your main to be related to alts e.g. main character married to alt, other alt is their son, other alt is a family friend).

Companions that give sidequests and reward you based on relationship.

Edited January 18, 2012 by BobTheTeepo

[Norumaniac]

Man, im glad you liked the story of the Consular, but for me it was so lame i couldn't believe it.

 

The ending... Dear god.

 

 

BTW, everyone was naked in the ending, not sure if that was a bug or they were really happy about finishing the story.

[weisen]

I love how people ask the Bioware 'simply innovate'! Like it's something that anyone can casually do.

 

I think that is a reasonable expectation given Bioware's credentials and available resources. Look at the difference between DA and DA2 combat, they are certainly capable of making something different. The problem is they don't want to.

[Abriael]

Fully voiced.

Multiple dialogue choices (that are voiced) for the main character, that change rewards and story outcome.

Legacy system (allows your main to be related to alts e.g. main character married to alt, other alt is their son, other alt is a family friend).

Companions that give sidequests and reward you based on relationship.

 

You forgot crafting and gathering by proxy and the item mod system.

 

Those are all innovations, by definition, therefore the game is innovative, no matter how much the haters hate this simple fact.

 

I think that is a reasonable expectation given Bioware's credentials and available resources. Look at the difference between DA and DA2 combat, they are certainly capable of making something different. The problem is they don't want to.

 

Not really, considering that they did, as explained above.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Abriael

[BobTheTeepo]

You forgot crafting and gathering by proxy and the item mod system.

 

Those are all innovations, by definition, therefore the game is innovative, no matter how much the haters hate this simple fact.

 

 

 

Not really, considering that they did, as explained above.

 

Very true, those were just off the top of my head.

 

I think people confuse innovation, with "new shiny thing that I like". People need to understand, just because you do not like an innovation, or just because it's not innovative enough for you, that does not mean that it is not an innovation, or that it isn't enough for others.

[Kurnea]

just because other companies have apparently signed a strict "no innovation, must follow the wow/rift/conan/warhammer/aion mold" agreement, doesn't mean BW has to sign it.

 

For future mmos, maybe Bioware will use some of your ideas. But this is finished and released mmo. At best we can hope to see the added tool here and there, as well as bug fixes and new content down the road. It's unlikely they're going to change the entire nature of the game post-launch.

[BadgeredMushroom]

Fully voiced.

 

Sure, this is the first fully voiced MMO. There have been voiced over parts in numerous other games, but this game does it for just about everything except mission boxes. However, this doesn't really impact the game or the story quality IMO. It just replaces the quest text for some of the conversations in the game.

 

I don't really count the aliens as voiced since you still have to read their dialogue (unless you are fluent in wookiee ****** pinchy), but I'll give you that one.

 

Multiple dialogue choices (that are voiced) for the main character, that change rewards and story outcome

 

This falls under fully voiced, but the latter part is only partially true. Your choices (other than declining side quests) have virtually no impact on what happens later. The story will still be the same, but you might not get a letter (because you killed someone) or you might not get a few extra credits. It doesn't actually impact your class story at all.

 

Legacy system (allows your main to be related to alts e.g. main character married to alt, other alt is their son, other alt is a family friend).

 

This is completely unfinished. I won't count this as anything until it actually does something. The family system IMNSHO is completely hokey and nonsensical. How is my Sith Inquisitor related to my Jedi Knight when he is human and the inquisitor is a pureblood? No comprende. I would have much rather been able to give each character a unique surname.

 

Companions that give sidequests and reward you based on relationship.

 

Your pets give you missions. Cool? I kind of feel like you're stretching for things to list off. This is really no different from getting a mission from a random NPC.

 

You listed a bunch of small stuff. I could do the same for any other game, but none of that really has an impact on the actual gameplay. At its core, this game doesn't innovate. It's the same as every other loot treadmill out there. It has a lot more fluff, yes, which is nice but doesn't amount to much in the long run. I'm not discounting the fluff, but it doesn't do it for me, nor is it going to keep players long term.

Edited January 18, 2012 by BadgeredMushroom

[Tehroth]

Fully voiced.

Multiple dialogue choices (that are voiced) for the main character, that change rewards and story outcome.

Legacy system (allows your main to be related to alts e.g. main character married to alt, other alt is their son, other alt is a family friend).

Companions that give sidequests and reward you based on relationship.

 

Voicing: In AoC, and a few other titles.

Legacy system done in other mmorpgs like Adellion

Companions is new, but its more of a single player aspect.

 

All that you listed was just polishing and mediocre fluff.

 

An innovative crafting system would be something akin to Mortal online. This crafting system is luck based that you unlock 3 different variants of a earpiece.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Tehroth

[Hyperionthethird]

There's only so much content they can have at endgame at launch. I guess you could say they could've put the level cap at 40 and have the last few planets be all for max levels to enjoy story wise, but I'm pretty sure the only result of that is tons of people not bothering to do it.

[Abriael]

Voicing: In AoC, and a few other titles.

 

No. AoC and the "few other titles" have only partial voicing that covers only a minimal part of the game. They also don't include any kind of meaningful choice and the player character isn't voiced. So yeah, it's an innovation.

 

Companions is new, but its more of a single player aspect.

 

False. Companions can used, and are are useful in a group.

 

All that you listed was just polishing and mediocre fluff.

 

No, it's not. They're, quite literally, innovations. What you think about their utility or importance is completely irrelevant.

 

An innovative crafting system would be something akin to Mortal online. This crafting system is luck based that you unlock 3 different variants of a earpiece.

 

No. An innovation is something new, or something new in a given environment. That's all there's to it.

 

"Innovation" =/= "Innovation you like"

 

Sorry, but you're being disingenuous.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Abriael

[BobTheTeepo]

Voicing: In AoC, and a few other titles.

Legacy system done in other mmorpgs like Adellion

Companions is new, but its more of a single player aspect.

 

All that you listed was just polishing and mediocre fluff.

 

An innovative crafting system would be something akin to Mortal online. This crafting system is luck based that you unlock 3 different variants of a earpiece.

 

Age of Conan was NOT fully voiced.

 

Could you please link a source to confirm that Adellion's legacy system was indeed the same as this one?

 

Companions are still innovation.

 

No, what I listed was innovation, innovation is innovation regardless of how large or small it is. A bird is still a bird, even if it's wing span is 4 inches or 3 feet long.

[Tehroth]

There's only so much content they can have at endgame at launch. I guess you could say they could've put the level cap at 40 and have the last few planets be all for max levels to enjoy story wise, but I'm pretty sure the only result of that is tons of people not bothering to do it.

 

Why do we need endgame content that we have to do a vicious cycle for? Be innovative, we don't want to grind battlegrounds or instances to get gear or have any meaning.

[BadgeredMushroom]

Age of Conan was NOT fully voiced.

 

Could you please link a source to confirm that Adellion's legacy system was indeed the same as this one?

 

Companions are still innovation.

 

No, what I listed was innovation, innovation is innovation regardless of how large or small it is. A bird is still a bird, even if it's wing span is 4 inches or 3 feet long.

 

That's nice and all, but didn't start this thread to complain about a lack of fluff, even though that does exist. Why can't we sit in chairs again? Anywho, back on subject.

 

This thread is about the core mechanics of the game, specifically the end game, which is where the majority of the player base (excluding altaholics) will be spending their time. There is nothing even remotely innovative at the end game. It is a carbon copy of any of the myriad of loot treadmills currently out on the market.

 

Most of us are giving suggestions or supporting the ideas I outlined in the OP, not white knighting for BioWare. I'd appreciate it if you'd get on topic or stop trolling my thread. Thanks!

[Abriael]

That's nice and all, but didn't start this thread to complain about a lack of fluff, even though that does exist. Why can't we sit in chairs again? Anywho, back on subject.

 

This thread is about the core mechanics of the game, specifically the end game, which is where the majority of the player base (excluding altaholics) will be spending their time. There is nothing even remotely innovative at the end game. It is a carbon copy of any of the myriad of loot treadmills currently out on the market.

 

Most of us are giving suggestions or supporting the ideas I outlined in the OP, not white knighting for BioWare. I'd appreciate it if you'd get on topic or stop trolling my thread. Thanks!

 

Sure there is something innovative in the endgame. Fully voiced story driven choice-enabled content. That IS innovative. It may not be the kind of innovation you want or like, but it sure works for me.

 

It was about time for someone to actually go out and implement this factual innovation.

 

PS: You discount the possibility of the fact that the majority of the player base may be, or become altaholics. In pretty much every single MMORPG, including wow there are points in which you run out of content, or content becomes stale. That's when people create alts. But this is a different story.