TheTurniipKing Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 The more games cater to solo players, the worse the MP aspects of that game become. Isn't this self-evident? We've been trying to prevent this for years, but you anti-social types, for whatever reason, can't stand to just play Oblivion or Skyrim. No, you have to take over MMO's too, constantly griping that "Zomg, I can't believe I have to play with OTHER PEOPLE in this multi-player game!! I pay $15 a month, this should be a giant single player game!!" Oddly enough, my biggest wish for Oblivion and the likes is that they'd GAIN multiplayer. Not massively multiplayer, just support for playing with 2-4 of your real-life friends, over LAN or Internet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSwamper Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 When MMO's came out the whole point to them was "you can play online with thousands of other people!" And for some reason, the more they "advance," the more players demand that the developer remove other people from the equation. I mean, seriously, why even make an MMO in the first place? Regarding early MMO's; they had NO group content. None. No raids, and not a single quest where the words "Find 5 friends" could be found. I'd be quite content if EVERY group quest had a soloable option (multiple companions?). Why pay for an MMO? 1. I like the auction house; it let's me acquire rare loot it'd take me years to find (if ever) in a single player game. It also gives me the option to sell rare loot or crafted gear that would otherwise be vendor trash. 2. I like seeing other players go about their business, questing, chatting, etc. It makes the game feel more alive than any SP ever can, regardless of how many NPC's it has. 3. The world is way more massive and progressive. Constant content additions. I can (and have) done every quest in the ME's or KOTOR's or DA's in less than 50 hours. I would estimate it would take 10 times that in this game, if not 100. 4. I like the option of grouping up from time to time. Just to change things up. I can't do that in an SP either. 5. PvP. OK, not my thing, but again, something that doesn't exist in SP games. There are plenty of ways to interact with others that do not fall into the category of 'group up for combat'. As long as BW lets me slowly, continually progress my character without forcing me to group up to do so, I will happily keep paying my sub. And to hell with anyone who says it's wrong to enjoy an MMO this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmud Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 lol, oh, so you "groupers" are victims, right? God forbid a game, with the STAR WARS IP, have options for the casual, solo players. Sorry to tell you, but if you wanted hardcore grouping (sounds dirty), this was never going to be your game. I never wanted hardcore grouping , there should be a mix of single player and grouped stuff , tho this game is like playing a single player 80-90% of the time ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainscarbeard Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Hey all! I've played the game a lot already, and I think I know enough to critisize it and suggest what can be improved about it. So in our guild we talked that the game is really a lot single player and not enough MMO. And here's why I think so: - Instances on the planets Why do you keep us all divided? All other games have managed to put all the players into one realm, it won't hurt if we'll have to wait 1-2 mins for some mob to respawn because there were lots of people there... PROS Single player missions are a little bit easier... CONS Less online experience and socializing with other peopleLess world pvp I agree. Problem is, they would have to make quest items multi clickable and maybe even expand some of them. I don't see it happening but new areas should allow more bodies. - Too many instanced areas Yes I know the meaning of this is that you can progress easier in the quest. But still, what if in an instanced area for 4ppl there are 2x3 sized parties and any of them could use additional member? And what if this member is inside the area and they can see him? Will be lot easier. And I doubt this would prevent story progression or something, since when a mission is being turned in or being in progress players are invulnerable to outer things (enemy player for example) PROS Hard to kill mobs wont spawn again once they are killed CONS Less online experience and socializingKinda harder to get another member if someone from the group leaves I think there needs to be more open quest areas. Like on tatooine we were doing one of those heroics with the jawas and ended up teaming with a guy who was trying to solo it with his companion. We all got out of there faster, it was great. The instanced stuff is there to give you a feeling like you aren't just another sith warrior saving captain bunghole from rampaging rancors. They both have their place. - No chat bubbles Call me paranoid, but I get the feeling this isn't implemented intentionaly... I mean this is the VERY FIRST thing you must do if making online game, where players are supposed to talk to each other and understand/hear the others easily. And I don't even see if this feature will be implemented in the next patches... PROS None CONS Less online experience and socializing againPlayers can hardly see that someone next to them is talking... I hate these because I am old and afraid of change. Just give me the option to turn them off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matic Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 its a singleplayer game with multiplayer aspects and im ok with that. I am loving the fact that i can do a lot either by myself or just with a friend or 2. hopefully SWTOR stays this way and not go toward the "raid or die" mentality of progression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mineria Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Guild Wars isn't an MMO. It also doesn't charge $15 a month to continue playing. It required a good amount of money for each expansion thou. Plus some randoms you can buy from the ingame shop. GW2 will be more MMO and still not charge $15 a month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam_Nox Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 endgame will already be raidordie. Most of us who want a more massive experience want it outside of raiding, and even before level 50. Most people simply are not going to pay a monthly fee for a single player experience. In the end the only subscribers will be people who are gear grinding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elysith Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I am big fan of the game the way it is. To say it is not multiplayer or a single player RPG is ridiculous. This is exactly the game they promised us from the beginning and its the type of game I have been waiting for, for a very long time. I have played a couple the prototypical MMO's and I do not enjoy the format. I do however love SP RPG's, but I have always wanted the ability to group up with friends to enjoy said RPG's. Thus SWTOR. Now a group of friends and I have created a guild, help eachother on mish's, run instances and get to enjoy the game together. I honestly do not care about grouping with people I do not know, not that I don't simply to do a FP or HM from time to time, but that is not what makes the game for me. I also have no desire to grind or farm so that I can be competitive in PVP. This game allows me to play MP or SP at my leisure and I enjoy the ability to choose and not be forced into doing something. ...<sniped>... Thats just me though. Well said, and that is not just you As for the bubbles as "chat text over head" (not necessarily comic-like bubbles), I'm for it because I find them visibly convenient unlike a chat window with many stuff going on. As long as they are optional of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeln Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 The more games cater to solo players, the worse the MP aspects of that game become. Isn't this self-evident? We've been trying to prevent this for years, but you anti-social types, for whatever reason, can't stand to just play Oblivion or Skyrim. No, you have to take over MMO's too, constantly griping that "Zomg, I can't believe I have to play with OTHER PEOPLE in this multi-player game!! I pay $15 a month, this should be a giant single player game!!" When MMO's came out the whole point to them was "you can play online with thousands of other people!" And for some reason, the more they "advance," the more players demand that the developer remove other people from the equation. I mean, seriously, why even make an MMO in the first place? Take TOR for example. The only thing TOR's MMO aspects do is bring the game down. It would have been much better as a purely single-player game with some kind of a gathering hall for co-op. They could have made the SP part of the game even better. What has Bioware accomplished with this hybrid? The SP part of the game isn't as good as it could be, and the MP part of the game is half-assed and just unsatisfying. Why any developer would design an MMORPG, and then forget that before you can release that the MULTIPLAYER parts of the game need to be damned near perfece, just baffles me. Why did you make it a MMO, again? The answer then becomes clear. Because with an MMO you can charge a sub. There's literally no other reason I can think of why Bioware wanted to make an MMO. It's obvious their hearts aren't in the "MMO" parts. So how you would make a MMORPG? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeln Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I never wanted hardcore grouping , there should be a mix of single player and grouped stuff , tho this game is like playing a single player 80-90% of the time ... You do realize that every non-class quest dialog can be done in a multiplayer conversation for social points, right? Every aspect of the quest dialog, start and finish can be done as a group, with the random roll for who gets to speak next. TOR is no more single player than WoW is while leveling. You can even enable people of your same class to be able to accompany you into your own class story instances too - they just won't get credit if they are on the same step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hulduet Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) It's too late mate. The game is what it is and that will never change. It's the core of the game currently. It's their decision. I think the game is fine, a lot of problems they might solve eventually. <edit> I don't get it... chat bubbles? Why not just read the chat, it clearly says "<name> blah blah". Edited January 17, 2012 by hulduet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mineria Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) endgame will already be raidordie. Most of us who want a more massive experience want it outside of raiding, and even before level 50. Most people simply are not going to pay a monthly fee for a single player experience. In the end the only subscribers will be people who are gear grinding. There is no massive experience outside of raids and pvp in any mmorpg's with exception for a few Worldbosses and stuff you can solo or duo anyway. Although, I remember some guild quests from L2 which was a pretty cool thing back then. Rift had a little more but still as already mentioned, it was/is dead midgame, kind of like Warhammer Online. End game content and major addition of content is of major importance to keep the game going, but the same goes for story line, since some player purely enjoy that part while leveling and opening up to new content. I wonder about one thing thou, why is there no massive lake zone PvP ala Warhammer Online, just better? With affection to the winning and loosing faction on those planets these fights go on. Can't understand why the game engine choice didn't go to something that would support it without any issues. I mean, it's not only duels but also the massive fights in the movies. Spacecombat should also have had some sort of PvP. Edited January 17, 2012 by Mineria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiddeth Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Regarding early MMO's; they had NO group content. None. No raids, and not a single quest where the words "Find 5 friends" could be found. no need for a "find 5 friends" statement you wanted to clear a dungeon you knew you where going to need 5 friend if not more. my question for the people out there that like to play alone, thats fine. but what wrong with seeing a world full of players. Why does the game have to be so instanced. Many people have stated that they played WoW from 0-85 solo I'm one of those people, I may have played alone but I didn't feel like I was alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannic Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) So how you would make a MMORPG? The first thing I would NOT do is try to create a game with mainstream appeal, because IMO that's a recipe for failure. I would rather start off my design process targeting 2 or 3 sizeable niches. PvP, RP'ers, and Crafters. 1. PvP 2. RP features 3. Seamless world 4. Guild oriented 5. Customizable with things like appearance tabs, etc. 6. Viable crafting system 7. A progression system and end game that encourage player-driven content, where the economy, crafting systems, guild systems, and PvP are all relevant to each other in a way similar to Eve Online in its early days. Until I had it pretty much nailed exactly how those systems would work, be balanced, and how they would evolve I wouldn't even bother to acquire financing for the game. I believe that trying to appeal to a WoW-sized population is why so many titles fail to even come close to living up to expectations. What's better? A game like Eve that had a population of 300 to 350k subs for years and years, or a game like Warhammer, that was much more popular at release, and within 3 months was down to 250K subs and within 1 year was down to less than 150K? There's no way to please everyone in an MMO. IMO, the most successful MMO's in the future will be those who don't aspire to be WoW, but rather aspire to appeal to one or two specific niches, and then make a game that will please them, specifically. Edited January 17, 2012 by Mannic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaVolpex Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I really hope they never implement chat bubbles. It would look WAY too goofy for this game. its simple, dont turn them on and leave them off, i turn them on cuz i like em, we are both happy but i see ZERO reason to not have them if they are toggled , i wouldnt want them forced on everyone , jsut the option to have em for those of us that like it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTurniipKing Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) The first thing I would NOT do is try to create a game with mainstream appeal, because IMO that's a recipe for failure. I would rather start off my design process targeting 2 or 3 sizeable niches. PvP, RP'ers, and Crafters. 1. PvP 2. RP features 3. Seamless world 4. Guild oriented 5. Customizable with things like appearance tabs, etc. 6. Viable crafting system 7. A progression system and end game that encourage player-driven content, where the economy, crafting systems, guild systems, and PvP are all relevant to each other in a way similar to Eve Online. Until I had figured out how to accomplish those 7 things, I wouldn't even bother to acquire financing for the game. I believe that trying to appeal to a WoW-sized population is why so many titles fail to even come close to living up to expectations. What's better? A game like Eve that had a population of 300 to 350k subs for years and years, or a game like Warhammer, that was much more popular at release, and within 3 months was down to 250K subs and within 1 year was down to less than 150K? There's no way to please everyone in an MMO. IMO, the most successful MMO's in the future will be those who don't aspire to be WoW, but rather aspire to appeal to one or two specific niches, and then make a game that will please them, specifically. You've missed a niche from Bartle's classifications. Killer, Explorer, Socialiser and Achiever. It is possible to do a decent job of appeasing all four of these archetypes (and indeed, most players don't fall into a single one of these archetyoes, being a mixture of them all). Edited January 17, 2012 by TheTurniipKing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaVolpex Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 It's too late mate. The game is what it is and that will never change. It's the core of the game currently. It's their decision. I think the game is fine, a lot of problems they might solve eventually. <edit> I don't get it... chat bubbles? Why not just read the chat, it clearly says "<name> blah blah". what i dont get is why people are opposed to this? in every other game that has them you can turn them off it makes ZERO difference to you what the other guy is doing on his interface, they can be an option , just like in every other game boggles my mind just how many people dislike the bubbles thing /shrug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTurniipKing Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) what i dont get is why people are opposed to this? in every other game that has them you can turn them off it makes ZERO difference to you what the other guy is doing on his interface, they can be an option , just like in every other game boggles my mind just how many people dislike the bubbles thing /shrug The point is, local chat. You need to be able to speak to other players in your local vicinity without bugging people on the area channels. AS it is, you NEED to party with people before you can have any kind of "private" conversation. So yeah, I'd totally be up for the chat bubbles thing too. Though it is kind of at odds with TOR's "vocal" aesthetic. Edited January 17, 2012 by TheTurniipKing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannic Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 You've missed a niche from Bartle's classifications. Killer, Explorer, Socialiser and Achiever. It is possible to do a decent job of appeasing all four of these archetypes (and indeed, most players don't fall into a single one of these archetyoes, being a mixture of them all). Not sure which of those classifications you believe I've missed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeln Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 my question for the people out there that like to play alone, thats fine. but what wrong with seeing a world full of players. Why does the game have to be so instanced. Many people have stated that they played WoW from 0-85 solo I'm one of those people, I may have played alone but I didn't feel like I was alone. Can you explain how TOR is "so instanced"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waypoc Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 So how you would make a MMORPG? CommunityMore People - Stop the Sharding/InstancingPetsAnimal MountsScalable UIChat BubblesLess Gated GameplayTrue Open WorldsMore mystical mysterious Gameplay. You know, like Star WarsMovable UIPlayer Housing - Non-Instanced - No there would not be a blight if they just added rent with limits on how much you could pre-payMore in-depth Meaningful CraftingMore in-depth Meaningful HarvestingRemove the mountain Walls, regular walls. Stop making me run 5 miles in one direction to get to an obkective that is just on the other side of another wallMore ImmersionMore Planets with no Level Range. All levels are there, low and high. Be Careful.Broker that worksGuild Halls - Non-InstancedNo Mobs on every single node and every single path. It's ridiculous.No Combat DelayBetter Textures.FoodArmor that has a base stat so that it is actually worth something more than appearanceOpen World PvP with actual rewards so that everyone isn't always in WZ's on PvP Servers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaidar Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 CommunityMore People - Stop the Sharding/InstancingPetsAnimal MountsScalable UIChat BubblesLess Gated GameplayTrue Open WorldsMore mystical mysterious Gameplay. You know, like Star WarsMovable UIPlayer Housing - Non-Instanced - No there would not be a blight if they just added rent with limits on how much you could pre-payMore in-depth Meaningful CraftingMore in-depth Meaningful HarvestingRemove the mountain Walls, regular walls. Stop making me run 5 miles in one direction to get to an obkective that is just on the other side of another wallMore ImmersionMore Planets with no Level Range. All levels are there, low and high. Be Careful.Broker that worksGuild Halls - Non-InstancedNo Mobs on every single node and every single path. It's ridiculous.No Combat DelayBetter Textures.FoodArmor that has a base stat so that it is actually worth something more than appearanceOpen World PvP with actual rewards so that everyone isn't always in WZ's on PvP Servers. agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiddeth Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Can you explain how TOR is "so instanced"? Are you serious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imtrick Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 (edited) my question for the people out there that like to play alone, thats fine. but what wrong with seeing a world full of players. To be honest, I play several games that are instanced like SWTOR is, and I'd really rather have an instanced world than an uninstanced one. It helps frame rates, it lowers contention for simple things like quest objectives and nodes, etc. The only real element of the game that might suffer from it would probably be world PVP on the servers that support it. I guess my question back at you would be "why do you need to see a world full of players?" I mean, you know they're there. What's good about crowds of people? Edited January 18, 2012 by imtrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogi-Wan-BG Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 (edited) Hey all! I've played the game a lot already, and I think I know enough to critisize it and suggest what can be improved about it. So in our guild we talked that the game is really a lot single player and not enough MMO. And here's why I think so: - Instances on the planets Why do you keep us all divided? All other games have managed to put all the players into one realm, it won't hurt if we'll have to wait 1-2 mins for some mob to respawn because there were lots of people there... PROS Single player missions are a little bit easier... CONS Less online experience and socializing with other peopleLess world pvp - Too many instanced areas Yes I know the meaning of this is that you can progress easier in the quest. But still, what if in an instanced area for 4ppl there are 2x3 sized parties and any of them could use additional member? And what if this member is inside the area and they can see him? Will be lot easier. And I doubt this would prevent story progression or something, since when a mission is being turned in or being in progress players are invulnerable to outer things (enemy player for example) PROS Hard to kill mobs wont spawn again once they are killed CONS Less online experience and socializingKinda harder to get another member if someone from the group leaves - No chat bubbles Call me paranoid, but I get the feeling this isn't implemented intentionaly... I mean this is the VERY FIRST thing you must do if making online game, where players are supposed to talk to each other and understand/hear the others easily. And I don't even see if this feature will be implemented in the next patches... PROS None CONS Less online experience and socializing againPlayers can hardly see that someone next to them is talking... Those were the biggest problems for now I can think of... Please, if you support me, comment and/or add anything else, so Bioware can hear us, and thanks for reading (if you bothered at all ) +1 I Totaly agree !!! --> We NEED and we WANT more PVP in this game!!! --> Also it will be good idea to when you kill a player/s in pvp to take some valor/xp/credits/loot Edited January 18, 2012 by Ogi-Wan-BG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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