Expertise...why?

[swHERO]

Great answer: suck it up

 

Intelligent.... not so much.

 

People don't mind gear progression. The reason Expertise is a bad move, is that it separates the PvP players from the PvE players.

 

It's worse in SWtOR than it is in WoW - because SWtOR is going for open world PvP. This, very simply, means that if you want to enjoy world PvP - you have to grind Expertise gear to be competitive.

 

Yes, the grind.

 

You can't just PvE/raid/HM or whatever you want. No, you need to pursue PvP only to enjoy PvP.

 

THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

 

Gear progression is fine - though there are other problems with it. For one, we need a better matching system.

 

"Rated Warzones" are two words. It's not a magical solution fixing all problems. We need to see it before we can trust anything.

 

What Bioware SHOULD do is reward ALL activities EQUALLY - and according to PERFORMANCE.

 

It shouldn't matter that whether I'm playing in a Warzone, Ilum, a Raid, or a HM flashpoint. I should be rewarded based on my performance - no matter what the heck I'm doing.

 

Then only good players would get access to good gear. Also, "bad" players should be matched with other "bad" players. So they have a fair shot at becoming good.

 

TIME is a horrible, horrible thing to reward. Because it supports the GRIND - and it's there only to keep you paying for a game because of that elusive dangling carrot.

 

Is that a bad thing that it separates pvp players from pve players? thats the thing it should be doing. Would pvp well thats up to you, ofc people with expertise have a big advantage, Thats up to you if you want that advantage, you can still do the would pvp up to you if you want some better pvp gear.

[SandTrout]

Your problem is with the gear disparity that veteran players get over newer players. A problem that will always exist because of the nature of mmo's. Suck it up, you picked a genre where people with more time to play will perform better.

 

I've underlined key points to make it easier to understand because most people suffer from selective reading and the ability to have 0 critical thinking skills. I blame the horrible education system.

Maybe I did not explain myself well.

 

Yes, I do have a problem with gear disparity.

 

I also have a problem with needing to grind twice for separate sets of PvP and PvE gear. I would rather grind once.

 

Expertise still has nothing to do with making it easier to balance classes, as it is completely unrelated to class balance, only extending the gear grind, which I do not enjoy.

[SandTrout]

Is that a bad thing that it separates pvp players from pve players? thats the thing it should be doing. Would pvp well thats up to you, ofc people with expertise have a big advantage, Thats up to you if you want that advantage, you can still do the would pvp up to you if you want some better pvp gear.

Dividing the community between PvP and PvE is a bad thing because it reduces the amount of the game that any given player can participate in.

[darthmorbous]

I disagree. There should be a benefit from pvp gear in PVP.

 

Lets say in wow, if you like doing rated arena, and rated BG you can get the best pvp gear.

Why shouldnt they have a benefit from that?

Same thing here, even tho its easy to get the gear atm, but i hope there will get better gear from doing rated wz and stuff.

 

If you dont like expertise cause people get buffed versus another player, dont play pvp ?

 

^^ i disagree with this guy

 

PvP should always be about skill, not stats, and PvP in itself is the reward. PvP stats have killed al real PvPers experiences in all mmos that implemented em.

AoC b4 pvp stats, greatest PvP combat ever, after that...now its free to play.

RIFT going the same way.

In upcoming GW2, all gear stats and skills are given to each player in a war zone.im sure

LOADS of pvperss are moving there when it comes out.

 

PvP stats = always a big PvP fail

[Orangerascal]

Great answer: suck it up

People don't mind gear progression. The reason Expertise is a bad move, is that it separates the PvP players from the PvE players.

 

This is a good thing. As it prevents endgame content from being trivialized. This extends its life and prevents Bioware from running out of pve content and people quitting their game.

 

What you want is to be lazy and get pve gear just by pvping. Doesn't work that way for Bioware's business model. In fact most games seperate pve and pvp content because of the consumer's insatiable appetite for content.

 

It's worse in SWtOR than it is in WoW - because SWtOR is going for open world PvP. This, very simply, means that if you want to enjoy world PvP - you have to grind Expertise gear to be competitive.

 

No you don't. PVE gear is just as good as pvp gear for pvp.

 

 

Yes, the grind.

 

You can't just PvE/raid/HM or whatever you want. No, you need to pursue PvP only to enjoy PvP.

 

THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

 

I've told this to you many times, but it does not seem to sink it. PVE gear is as good as PVP Gear because of the added endurance and main stat (str, cun, wil, aim). I know you're bad at math but at least trust bioware and computer scientists that took 4 semesters of calculus to get their degrees.

 

Gear progression is fine - though there are other problems with it. For one, we need a better matching system.

 

"Rated Warzones" are two words. It's not a magical solution fixing all problems. We need to see it before we can trust anything.

 

Rated warfronts by design works. It's how it works on games like sc2, real life sports like tennis and football. And how they rank chess players. Because you don't understand it does not mean it won't work.

 

Read this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=118212

for an example on how this can be implemented and why it works. Sc2 had the best matchmaking system I've ever seen.

 

What Bioware SHOULD do is reward ALL activities EQUALLY - and according to PERFORMANCE.

 

It shouldn't matter that whether I'm playing in a Warzone, Ilum, a Raid, or a HM flashpoint. I should be rewarded based on my performance - no matter what the heck I'm doing.

 

Except this goes against their business model. They want you to remain subbed and not quit because they run out of content. Seperating the content is a cheap and efficient way for them to do this.

 

Then only good players would get access to good gear. Also, "bad" players should be matched with other "bad" players. So they have a fair shot at becoming good.

 

TIME is a horrible, horrible thing to reward. Because it supports the GRIND - and it's there only to keep you paying for a game because of that elusive dangling carrot.

 

Most players who think they are good are just bad in reality. It's called the dunning kruger effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect). That's the sad truth. The casuals that think they're skilled in my experience are usually extremely bad players.

 

Time is the metric used by most people to determine proficiency.

 

Simple test: Do you trust the pilot with 20,000 flying hours or 200 hours? How about the doctor who has done 2000 operations or 20 operations?

Edited January 17, 2012 by Orangerascal

[swHERO]

Dividing the community between PvP and PvE is a bad thing because it reduces the amount of the game that any given player can participate in.

 

Well you think people who has been farming alot of pve gear doing HM FP, and raids want a new lvl 50 in there raid group ? i dont think so unless you know them or maybe in the guild, so in that way you still have hard time finding a group for it cause must people prob have a req for it.

 

And its prob the same for pvp, why would people invite lets say you if you hit 50 with all that bad gear, if another 50 whisper them for invite and he got alot better gear who you think they will pick?

 

And then lets say if expertise was removed. Then you can just farm all the gear in either warzoens or Hardmodes, and do good in both contents. pve and pvp.

[gryhmr]

swHERO are you trolling right now?

[swHERO]

^^ i disagree with this guy

 

PvP should always be about skill, not stats, and PvP in itself is the reward. PvP stats have killed al real PvPers experiences in all mmos that implemented em.

AoC b4 pvp stats, greatest PvP combat ever, after that...now its free to play.

RIFT going the same way.

In upcoming GW2, all gear stats and skills are given to each player in a war zone.im sure

LOADS of pvperss are moving there when it comes out.

 

PvP stats = always a big PvP fail

 

Well i disagree with you

[swHERO]

swHERO are you trolling right now?

 

I would never inv a new lvl 50 unless i know the guy and know his good.

 

Then i rather find a better geared guy. nah im not trolling :>

[Adzzy]

honestly, expertise like resilience, exists to cater to pve'ers who would whine incessantly about pvp'ers getting the best gear at a probably faster rate (due to lockouts etc), heck the guy that came out with resilience in wow was as big a hardcore raider elitist as has existed.

[Talkative]

Dividing the community between PvP and PvE is a bad thing because it reduces the amount of the game that any given player can participate in.

This. Cannot. Be. Repeated. Enough.

[Orangerascal]

This. Cannot. Be. Repeated. Enough.

 

So you want to bypass one set of content by doing something different. I don't think this is conducive to Bioware's business model of maximizing their content's shelf life.

 

Good luck getting them to change that. Especially in a world where people quit because their is not enough endgame content. (and this game is severely lacking it)

Edited January 17, 2012 by Orangerascal

[gryhmr]

So you want to bypass one set of content by doing something different. I don't think this is conducive to Bioware's business model of maximizing their content's shelf life.

 

Good luck getting them to change that. Especially in a world where people quit because their is not enough endgame content. (and this game is severely lacking it)

 

Again: Just dont include a pvp stat. The pvp gear can have pvp oriented set bonuses and stamina weights to be condusive to the task without being so overpowered to newcomers that it makes people not want to play.

[Orangerascal]

Again: Just dont include a pvp stat. The pvp gear can have pvp oriented set bonuses and stamina weights to be condusive to the task without being so overpowered to newcomers that it makes people not want to play.

 

Read my post about how they tuned endgame to see why this can't be done. Put it this way. If the pvp set was reduced, people would farm the bejezus our of the pve set and use that as currently they are equal (in pvp).

 

You're lucky it exists, if not we could not compete vs raiders.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Orangerascal

[DKDArtagnan]

This is a good thing. As it prevents endgame content from being trivialized. This extends its life and prevents Bioware from running out of pve content and people quitting their game.

 

Yes, it's a good thing for Bioware - and a bad thing for players.

 

However, you don't seem to understand what I'm saying about performance. There's nothing trivial about having to be good to get rewarded.

 

GETTING good, should be the incentive for those wanting to get good. That will take time, yes.

 

What you want is to be lazy and get pve gear just by pvping. Doesn't work that way for Bioware's business model. In fact most games seperate pve and pvp content because of the consumer's insatiable appetite for content.

 

A baseless assumption, and you have no idea what I want. Stick to what you can actually know, please.

 

No you don't. PVE gear is just as good as pvp gear for pvp.

 

Oh, and PvP gear for PvE?

 

I've told this to you many times, but it does not seem to sink it. PVE gear is as good as PVP Gear because of the added endurance and main stat (str, cun, wil, aim). I know you're bad at math but at least trust bioware and computer scientists that took 4 semesters of calculus to get their degrees.

 

Ok, show me a source saying that they've designed DPS class PvE gear to yield the same performance as PvP gear. Saying "you suck at math" without anything to back it up is not convincing.

 

DEMONSTRATE that a T2 PvE set grants me the same survivability as DPS as a T2 PvP set.

 

I know you have proof, since you seem to claim this over and over.

 

Also, even if you were right - it would still not remove the SIMPLE TRUTH that PvP gear will NOT be efficient for PvE end-game - because Expertise does nothing against non-players.

 

Rated warfronts by design works. It's how it works on games like sc2, real life sports like tennis and football. And how they rank chess players. Because you don't understand it does not mean it won't work.

 

It only works if it's done well, and countless games have failed at matching players against each other. That you have faith it will actually do this correctly in SWtOR is blind faith.

 

Except this goes against their business model. They want you to remain subbed and not quit because they run out of content. Seperating the content is a cheap and efficient way for them to do this.

 

They think that by making you grind they can make you stay subbed. It's up to the player whether that's worth his time. Times have changed - and players are starting to wise up and go against the grind perceived to be necessary.

 

Most players who think they are good are just bad in reality. It's called the dunning kruger effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect). That's the sad truth. The casuals that think they're skilled in my experience are usually extremely bad players.

 

This is relevant, because?

 

If you accuse people of suffering from the DK effect, without any basis whatsoever - you're just making yourself an idiot. I know it's become a very popular irrelevant point to make in these debates, and people who're made aware of it instantly start accusing each other of not being as smart/good as they think they are.

 

Which, in itself, is to suffer from the DK effect.

 

So, the only one here who shows a clear sign of suffering from DK is you, because you're letting it guide your opinion of total strangers that you have no knowledge of.

 

Time is the metric used by most people to determine proficiency.

 

Simple test: Do you trust the pilot with 20,000 flying hours or 200 hours? How about the doctor who has done 2000 operations or 20 operations?

 

If a doctor has performed 2000 operations and have messed up 1000 of them, I'm more inclined to trust the doctor having messed up 1 out of 20.

 

In SWtOR - the guy having played 10000 WZs will have MUCH better gear, even if he lost EVERY SINGLE one of them.

 

That's your idea of determining proficiency?

 

That's not very smart, is it.

Edited January 17, 2012 by DKDArtagnan

[SandTrout]

Well you think people who has been farming alot of pve gear doing HM FP, and raids want a new lvl 50 in there raid group ? i dont think so unless you know them or maybe in the guild, so in that way you still have hard time finding a group for it cause must people prob have a req for it.

Which has nothing to do with expertise. What expertise does is prevent someone who has been PvPing for the last month from being a viable candidate for your HM FP because his gear isn't adequate.

 

And its prob the same for pvp, why would people invite lets say you if you hit 50 with all that bad gear, if another 50 whisper them for invite and he got alot better gear who you think they will pick?

I would expect them to pick the better geared person. What expertise does is prevent someone who has been PvEing for the last month from being a viable candidate for PvP because his gear isn't adequate.

 

And then lets say if expertise was removed. Then you can just farm all the gear in either warzoens or Hardmodes, and do good in both contents. pve and pvp.

Then we can just select the best person, regardless of weather they PvP most of the time or PvE most of the time, although not if they only recently made 50.

[Skrewloose]

Having a pvp stat is fine. Making it boost healing done, Probably not so cool.

 

Once they split the 50's from the rest of the levels I think it wont be so bad. But right now, a 50 with expertise is just stupid hard to kill. 5 people beating on them, and 2 people healing those 5 and the 50 still kills 3/5 fighters before he dies.

[SandTrout]

So you want to bypass one set of content by doing something different. I don't think this is conducive to Bioware's business model of maximizing their content's shelf life.

The current system isn't conductive to a fun game because it forces people to participate in content that they do not enjoy.

 

Good luck getting them to change that. Especially in a world where people quit because their is not enough endgame content. (and this game is severely lacking it)

Which is funny that you say that, because expertise is what is most directly limiting the amount of end-game content you can participate in.

[Orangerascal]

Yes, it's a good thing for Bioware - and a bad thing for players.

 

However, you don't seem to understand what I'm saying about performance. There's nothing trivial about having to be good to get rewarded.

 

No it's a good thing for players too. They won't get bored after 2 months. It's already universally identified that developers can't produce content fast enough. There is a big drop in $$$ after about 3 months ... and this is bad for the longevity of the game.

 

A baseless assumption, and you have no idea what I want. Stick to what you can actually know, please.. Stick to what you can actually know, please.

 

You want to pve in pvp gear. Or at least this is what I got. Even now you're being purposely vague. Instead of saying: 'you have no idea what I want' , say what you want.

 

To tell you the truth, I think you're just venting for the sake of it.

 

Oh, and PvP gear for PvE?

 

Ok, show me a source saying that they've design DPS class PvE gear to yield the same performance as PvP gear. Saying "you suck at math" without anything to back it up is not convincing.

 

I don't have to show you a source: Just two pieces of equivalent level pve and pvp gear.

 

PVP:

http://www.torhead.com/item/cQVymSr/battlemaster-force-masters-vestments

 

PVE:

http://www.torhead.com/item/2ntyY3R/rakata-force-masters-vestments

 

PVE piece: has 24 more endurance and 17 more willpower

PVP piece: has 50 more expertise.

 

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see they perform identically in pvp.

 

P.S. I've posted this multiple times to you. And you still don't get it . This is why I say: 'you suck at math'

 

 

It only works if it's done well, and countless games have failed at matching players against each other. That you have faith it will actually do this correctly in SWtOR is blind faith.

 

Countless games failed huh ... which ones? I love your vague examples:

 

Pro-tip: give examples and links.

 

 

They think that by making you grind they can make you stay subbed. It's up to the player whether that's worth his time. Times have changed - and players are starting to wise up and go against the grind perceived to be necessary.

 

It's the mmo business model. GO play an fps if you don't like it.

 

 

This is relevant, because?

 

If you accuse people of suffering from the DK effect, without any basis whatsoever - you're just making yourself an idiot. I know it's become a very popular irrelevant point to make in these debates, and people who're made aware of it instantly start accusing each other of not being as smart/good as they think they are.

 

Which, in itself, is to suffer from the DK effect.

 

So, the only one here who shows a clear sign of suffering from DK is you, because you're letting it guide your opinion of total strangers that you have no knowledge of.

 

I use the DK effect to put into place people that think they are 'skilled'. Here's the reality, you most likely perform one standard deviation from the mean it terms of skill. If you were two standard deviations you would be playing a lot more because of the addictive and endorphic nature of winning. If you were three standard deviations you would probably be playing professionally.

 

What I'm saying is most people are average. And DK applies to people that keep using skilled unless they prove otherwise. They also make excuses like ... we lost because he was better geared, or we lost because mu pugs suck. They will never admit ... hey maybe he's just better because he put more time into it.

 

Do you notice that good players always praise other good players and not the opposite?

 

 

If a doctor have performed 2000 operations and have messed up 1000 of them, I'm more inclined to trust the doctor having messed up 1 out of 20.

 

In SWtOR - the guy having played 10000 WZs will have MUCH better gear, even if he lost EVERY SINGLE one of them.

 

That's your idea of determining proficiency?

 

That's not very smart, is it.

 

If the doctor messed up 1000 operations, he would not be proficient not would he have a license. It was assumed these were successful operations, like the pilots successful 20,000 hours. I guess this was too much to ask of you.

 

Also the guy playing 10000 WZ will be pretty damn good, just by the way the human brain learns and adapts. Again only someone affected by dunning kreuger would think he would be as good as that person by playing 30-40 games. It's also pretty elitist to think that people that bad exist.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Orangerascal

[Orangerascal]

The current system isn't conductive to a fun game because it forces people to participate in content that they do not enjoy.

.

 

Elaborate on this ... if you don't enjoy pve dont do it, same with pvp .... how does this even make sense?

 

Are you force to pvp to pve ... how about vice versa .... seriously did you even think about this?

[SandTrout]

Elaborate on this ... if you don't enjoy pve dont do it, same with pvp .... how does this even make sense?

 

Are you force to pvp to pve ... how about vice versa .... seriously did you even think about this?

 

I enjoy PvP and PvE. I do not enjoy grinding the same content repetitively.

[Orangerascal]

I enjoy PvP and PvE. I do not enjoy grinding the same content repetitively.

 

But the content is not repetitive. Heroics != battlegrounds, ILUM != raids.

 

What you're saying is because you got to battlemaster, you should not have do heroics and go straight to operations.

 

Again this does not make sense to Bioware's business model because you're trivializing their content. Heroics are a huge time sink which costed them a lot of $$$'s. If people could just skip then why bother with it to begin with?

 

Then when you finish the operations you will complain: 'there is no endgame content' ... well duh you skipped it all.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Orangerascal

[DKDArtagnan]

No it's a good thing for players too. They won't get bored after 2 months. It's already universally identified that developers can't produce content fast enough. There is a big drop in $$$ after about 3 months ... and this is bad for the longevity of the game.

 

People are already bored, which is why we're having this debate.

 

Also, by making challenging content in PvE - the longevity is achieved through requiring people to actually work to progress.

 

You want to pve in pvp gear. Or at least this is what I got. Even now you're being purposely vague. Instead of saying: 'you have no idea what I want' , say what you want.

 

To tell you the truth, I think you're just venting for the sake of it.

 

I would tell you what I want, if you can apologise for baseless assumptions. If I'm going to go through the trouble of stating irrevelant information, I'm going to need a reasonable person as the recipient.

 

I don't have to show you a source: Just two pieces of equivalent level pve and pvp gear.

 

PVP:

http://www.torhead.com/item/cQVymSr/battlemaster-force-masters-vestments

 

PVE:

http://www.torhead.com/item/2ntyY3R/rakata-force-masters-vestments

 

PVE piece: has 24 more endurance and 17 more willpower

PVP piece: has 50 more expertise.

 

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see they perform identically in pvp.

 

P.S. I've posted this multiple times to you. And you still don't get it . This is why I say: 'you suck at math'

 

I've seen you claim stuff without any kind of evidence whatsoever, over and over.

 

The above is a bunch of numbers. I don't see the formula behind the numbers. EXACTLY what does 24 Endurance and 17 Willpower translate to as a level 50 in terms of percentage modifier?

 

Give me the formula for this, or provide a clear source for it.

 

Until then, you're just posting numbers without any kind of basis for your conclusions.

 

YOU are the one making this claim over and over, and the burden of proof is upon you.

 

Either demonstrate why you're right, or close your mouth.

 

Also, AGAIN, would PvP gear be as efficient as PvE gear for endgame? Come on, answer this one.

 

Countless games failed huh ... which ones? I love your vague examples:

 

Pro-tip: give examples and links.

 

Well, to give an obvious example - I think SWtOR fails pretty miserably when they match people through the bolster system. Countless examples of multi-50 groups against low level groups. Ironically, the Expertise stat makes the system especially bad.

 

If there aren't enough players to support your system, then your system FAILED.

 

It's the mmo business model. GO play an fps if you don't like it.

 

Great argument. Maybe the MMO model needs to change, huh?

 

If the doctor messed up 1000 operations, he would not be proficient not would he have a license. It was assumed these were successful operations, like the pilots successful 20,000 hours. I guess this was too much to ask of you.

 

Also the guy playing 10000 WZ will be pretty damn good, just by the way the human brain learns and adapts. Again only someone affected by dunning kreuger would think he would be as good as that person by playing 30-40 games. It's also pretty elitist to think that people that bad exist.

 

A guy losing 10000 matches out of 10000 matches is pretty damn good?

 

So, you honestly think that people are as good as the amount of time they spend doing something?

 

Don't you think it's about investment and reward?

 

Obviously, you have very little experience with human nature - or you may not be aware of players who - after years of WoW PvP - still use the mouse to click abilities.

 

When the system REWARDS failure - a lot of people will be fine failing over and over.

 

Your added "license" argument is about as weak as everything else you come up with.

 

You have no basis for anything you say.

Edited January 17, 2012 by DKDArtagnan

[Baelvar]

Expertise is just a crutch for bad players, so they too can have their moment in the sunshine.

 

The whole argument that someone who grinds the PvP equipment should have an advantage over everyone else. Well they already do WITHOUT Expertise. Especially if your 50th, you have gear for your level, you can exceed the scaling hitpoint threshold of 12k, and you have all your abilities and skill trees trained.

 

If that isn't enough, then read the statement above because that applies to you.

[Orangerascal]

People are already bored, which is why we're having this debate.

 

Also, by making challenging content in PvE - the longevity is achieved through requiring people to actually work to progress.

 

So you're solution to users insatiable hunger for content is ... 'making challenging content'. Redundant argument is redundant.

 

Added to that, you want to 1/2 the content ... good one.

 

 

I would tell you what I want, if you can apologise for baseless assumptions. If I'm going to go through the trouble of stating irrevelant information, I'm going to need a reasonable person as the recipient.

 

Reasonable ... you're anything but. I'm only explaining why things are the way they are, you're the one that isn't open minded enough to read through it.

 

I've seen you claim stuff without any kind of evidence whatsoever, over and over.

 

The above is a bunch of numbers. I don't see the formula behind the numbers. EXACTLY what does 24 Endurance and 17 Willpower translate to as a level 50 in terms of percentage modifier?

 

Give me the formula for this, or provide a clear source for it.

 

Until then, you're just posting numbers without any kind of basis for your conclusions.

 

This is an example of your closed mindedness. Do you think Bioware pulled this numbers of of a hat. These numbers are there by design. 50 expertise is about a 0.5% damage increase. Coincidentally 17 willpower is close to the same (0.5% increase in damage).

 

It's a simple check ... go in game and press 'C', then hover over your character. I'm going to bother spending time with the formulas because I trust Bioware's design and the numbers seem right to me.

 

If it's so important to you, then you check. The fact that you want me to do all the work shows you're laziness again.

 

Well, to give an obvious example - I think SWtOR fails pretty miserable when they match people through the bolster system. Countless examples of multi-50 groups against low level groups.

 

If there aren't enough players to support your system, then your system FAILED.

 

I think giving an example of a failed system on a game that hasn't implemented said failed system is pure ... FAIL.

 

How about you wait for the system to be implemented before saying it failed instead of speculating. Seeing as rated warfronts worked in countless other real life and game examples.

 

Great argument. Maybe the MMO model needs to change, huh?

 

A guy losing 10000 matches out of 10000 matches is pretty damn good?

 

So, you honestly think that people are as good as the amount of time they spend doing something?

 

Don't you think it's about investment and reward?

 

Obviously, you have very little experience with human nature - or you may not be aware of players who - after years of WoW PvP - still use the mouse to click abilities.

 

When the system REWARDS failure - a lot of people will be fine failing over and over.

 

Your added "license" argument is about as weak as everything else you come up with.

 

You have no basis for anything you say.

 

Not worth replying to. If you don't think TIME is the greatest measure of proficiency you're in for a shock when you hit the real world. It's obvious nothing I can say will change your opinion.

 

DK to the max!!!