Expertise...why?

[SandTrout]

But the content is not repetitive. Heroics != battlegrounds, ILUM != raids.

I agree, but I would have to do heroics multiple times over, and raids multiple times over in order to get my PvE gear to match my PvP gear.

 

What you're saying is because you got to battlemaster, you should not have do heroics and go straight to operations.

Correct, I should not need to do Heroics, I should be allowed to choose.

 

Again this does not make sense to Bioware's business model because you're trivializing their content. Heroics are a huge time sink which costed them a lot of $$$'s. If people could just skip then why bother with it to begin with?

Their business model is addiction, then, not a fun game, and I am opposed to playing a game that is not fun, simply addictive. I understand why they do it, but for you to claim that it is a good thing that you are addicted and they are feeding your addiction is what does not make sense.

 

Then when you finish the operations you will complain: 'there is no endgame content' ... well duh you skipped it all.

If the Operations are fun, I'll go back and do them again. Then I'll play PvP for a while, then I'll go have more fun with operations.

 

My argument is that I want the game to be more fun, not more addictive.

[DKDArtagnan]

So you're solution to users insatiable hunger for content is ... 'making challenging content'. Redundant argument is redundant.

 

Added to that, you want to 1/2 the content ... good one.

 

There's no solution regardless. Well, there is - but it's not something I would expect from a themepark MMO.

 

Allowing players to create content, or making world PvP about land/control and allow crafters to build physical objects would go a long way to help longevity.

 

But, yes, making content actually challenging would extend longevity in a better way than turning out one pushover operation after the other. It's incredibly stupid design, and players are already tired of it from WoW.

 

Reasonable ... you're anything but. I'm only explaining why things are the way they are, you're the one that isn't open minded enough to read through it.

 

You've been nothing but arrogant, insulting people left and right without actually knowing what they're like and what they want.

 

This is an example of your closed mindedness. Do you think Bioware pulled this numbers of of a hat. These numbers are there by design. 50 expertise is about a 0.5% damage increase. Coincidentally 17 willpower is close to the same (0.5% increase in damage).

 

It's a simple check ... go in game and press 'C', then hover over your character. I'm going to bother spending time with the formulas because I trust Bioware's design and the numbers seem right to me.

 

If it's so important to you, then you check. The fact that you want me to do all the work shows you're laziness again.

 

If closed-mindedness is not having blind trust in everything you say, then so be it.

 

You have "faith" in their system, and you use this "faith" to put forth your baseless theories as indisputable facts.

 

You should be a politician.

 

I think giving an example of a failed system on a game that hasn't implemented said failed system is pure ... FAIL.

 

It's already implemented.

 

How about you wait for the system to be implemented before saying it failed instead of speculating. Seeing as rated warfronts worked in countless other real life and game examples.

 

I'm sorry to inform you of this, but there's ALREADY a matching system in place - and they do this through the BOLSTER system. The system obviously doesn't work very well.

 

Not worth replying to. If you don't think TIME is the greatest measure of proficiency you're in for a shock when you hit the real world. It's obvious nothing I can say will change your opinion.

 

DK to the max!!!

 

Your "arguments" are becoming increasingly weak. I'm thankful for that, because then people here will learn to ignore you.

 

Now I "just need to understand" you - and you don't have to argue your case.

 

Because everything you say is just right, right?

 

Impressive stuff.

[Orangerascal]

My argument is that I want the game to be more fun, not more addictive.

 

Then you're playing the wrong genre.

 

MMO's use a technique called: Operant conditioning to get you hooked. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning).

 

Blizzard was nefarious for using this in d2. And game makers have copped on with things like achievements.

[SandTrout]

Then you're playing the wrong genre.

 

MMO's use a technique called: Operant conditioning to get you hooked. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning).

 

Blizzard was nefarious for using this in d2. And game makers have copped on with things like achievements.

Then you're sick and should seek couciling for addiction. Not an attack, but you just stated that you just stated that you only play because you are addicted, and I think you should look at what you just wrote, and seek counciling.

[DKDArtagnan]

Then you're playing the wrong genre.

 

MMO's use a technique called: Operant conditioning to get you hooked. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning).

 

Blizzard was nefarious for using this in d2. And game makers have copped on with things like achievements.

 

Haha, thank you.

 

I needed that last bit of doubt about your value in this debate erased.

[Orangerascal]

There's no solution regardless. Well, there is - but it's not something I would expect from a themepark MMO.

 

Allowing players to create content, or making world PvP about land/control and allow crafters to build physical objects would go a long way to help longevity.

 

But, yes, making content actually challenging would extend longevity in a better way than turning out one pushover operation after the other. It's incredibly stupid design, and players are already tired of it from WoW.

 

Well swtor is designed to be like wow. Sandbox mmo's don't have the required features that propel the game into the millions of subscribers that EA wants.

 

 

You've been nothing but arrogant, insulting people left and right without actually knowing what they're like and what they want.

 

If closed-mindedness is not having blind trust in everything you say, then so be it.

 

You have "faith" in their system, and you use this "faith" to put forth your baseless theories as indisputable facts.

 

You should be a politician.

 

You're confusing "Blind faith" and trust. I trust the mechanic that fixes the brakes on my car without having to dismantle the calipers and bleed the breaks myself.

 

I trust that bioware can perform the simple math required to balance the gear. If you don't trust it ... do it yourself like I said. Go on I'll wait.

 

 

It's already implemented.

 

I'm sorry to inform you of this, but there's ALREADY a matching system in place - and they do this through the BOLSTER system. The system obviously doesn't work very well.

 

Your "arguments" are becoming increasingly weak. I'm thankful for that, because then people here will learn to ignore you.

 

Now I "just need to understand" you - and you don't have to argue your case.

 

Because everything you say is just right, right?

 

Impressive stuff.

 

There is no matching in place. It's obvious by the fact that huttball games don't evenly distribute teams where this would make sense to implement. The fact that you can't distinguish 'bolstering' and match making ... two radically different concepts is somewhat troubling.

 

Also you don't have to trust me, I don't even care ... I'm telling you the way things are ... You can't figure out that PVE gear = PVP gear ... when the items are looking at you straight in the face. So I won't bother wasting more time on you. It's obvious my breath is wasted.

[Thorguy]

 

Time is the metric used by most people to determine proficiency.

 

Simple test: Do you trust the pilot with 20,000 flying hours or 200 hours? How about the doctor who has done 2000 operations or 20 operations?

 

That's a very well thought out and simple test, indeed! And I would most likely be more inclined to let the more experienced of the two slice me open.

 

Oh. I do have one question: Assuming both doctors work in the same hospital, and the only doctor available to perform surgery at the time happens to be the doctor with the lesser number, wouldn't he have access to the same equipment as the other doctor?

 

Not being a doctor myself, I honestly don't know...

Edited January 17, 2012 by Thorguy

[Orangerascal]

Then you're sick and should seek couciling for addiction. Not an attack, but you just stated that you just stated that you only play because you are addicted, and I think you should look at what you just wrote, and seek counciling.

 

No, I stated gamer developers make games that are addicting using techniques like: operant conditioning. Why do you think angry birds is doing so well?

 

But what's interesting is that's what you picked up on .... a case of looking at one's self? I mentioned nothing on myself.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Orangerascal

[DKDArtagnan]

Well swtor is designed to be like wow. Sandbox mmo's don't have the required features that propel the game into the millions of subscribers that EA wants.

 

I'm sure you think WoW will have millions of subscribers forever?

 

The genre is going to evolve eventually. Bioware is living in the past, as are you. This will be very obvious in 6 months or so.

 

You're confusing "Blind faith" and trust. I trust the mechanic that fixes the brakes on my car without having to dismantle the calipers and bleed the breaks myself.

 

I trust that bioware can perform the simple math required to balance the gear. If you don't trust it ... do it yourself like I said. Go on I'll wait.

 

You're assuming they want to balance PvE gear in an identical fashion. That's blind faith - because you have no idea about their design principles.

 

There is no matching in place. It's obvious by the fact that huttball games don't evenly distribute teams where this would make sense to implement. The fact that you can't distinguish 'bolstering' and match making ... two radically different concepts is somewhat troubling.

 

There IS matching in place. The system ATTEMPTS to match players of an even level - which is why you'll meet more 50s as you level up.

 

Bioware has been quite clear about this.

 

So, you're factually wrong.

 

Also you don't have to trust me, I don't even care ... I'm telling you the way things are ... You can't figure out that PVE gear = PVP gear ... when the items are looking at you straight in the face. So I won't bother wasting more time on you. It's obvious my breath is wasted.

 

Stating things based on speculation and wishful thinking as facts - is the same as lying. No, I don't trust liars.

[Orangerascal]

Haha, thank you.

 

I needed that last bit of doubt about your value in this debate erased.

 

You don't think mmo's try to get you addicted

 

Read this article and educate yourself: http://gamecareerguide.com/features/975/operant_conditioning_in_.php

 

Why do you think gear grinds, achievements, unlocks, rated progression exist? Someone's in denial.

[SandTrout]

No, I stated gamer developers make games that are addicting using techniques like: operant conditioning. Why do you think angry birds is doing so well?

 

But what's interesting is that's what you picked up on .... a case of looking at one's self?

That is not a valid argument as to why expertise is a good thing. It only argues that it will be kept, not that it should be kept.

 

By your argument, coca-coal should have kept the cocaine because it made their drink more addictive so that it would sell better.

 

The fact that you're trying to use it to sway me means that you have some severely messed-up thought processes.

[Soljin]

It's not their only bad change to the game. The gear change came later, and the class/AC stat realignment came a little earlier than that.

 

Real answer..... raiders ruling PvP with their gear.....raiders complaining that PVP folks can run raids in their "easy mode" PvP gear. So to answer your question..... its in the game because people complain too much.

 

Honestly its a dated mechanic and needs to go. While their at it get rid of non modabble "relic" armor. Way to add modding to the game love it. Oh wait....one week into endgame everyone are clones again.....counter your own modding system for endgame...what?

Edited January 17, 2012 by Soljin

[DKDArtagnan]

You don't think mmo's try to get you addicted

 

Read this article and educate yourself: http://gamecareerguide.com/features/975/operant_conditioning_in_.php

 

Why do you think gear grinds, achievements, unlocks, rated progression exist? Someone's in denial.

 

You're defending this approach to MMO design by telling people to go away, instead of agreeing with them.

 

Also, check out Guild Wars 1/2 pricing model. They don't need you to stay subscribed - so they're not obligated to provide an endless grind.

 

That's what players will eventually want, once they figure out what a scam the traditional model is.

 

Doesn't mean SWtOR can't be improved though. But I guess you don't really want that, because it's "an MMO".

[gryhmr]

"WoW did it so it has to be right" is not how the MMO genre should continue or it will stagnate and be bogged down by the same tired ideas. Want to know why WoW got so successful? By going against MMO tropes and doing fun things. Its gotten away from that since its become the giant everyone copies though which is sad.

 

WoW has a pvp stat so we need one. Not good game design.

Edited January 17, 2012 by gryhmr

[Orangerascal]

That is not a valid argument as to why expertise is a good thing. It only argues that it will be kept, not that it should be kept.

 

By your argument, coca-coal should have kept the cocaine because it made their drink more addictive so that it would sell better.

 

The fact that you're trying to use it to sway me means that you have some severely messed-up thought processes.

 

I'm sure if it were not t illegal coca-cola would have left the coca leaves in their drink. But you're right this digresses from the main topic.

 

As for 'swaying', it was actually you who derailed the thread when you said this:

 

Maybe I did not explain myself well.

 

Yes, I do have a problem with gear disparity.

 

I also have a problem with needing to grind twice for separate sets of PvP and PvE gear. I would rather grind once.

 

Expertise still has nothing to do with making it easier to balance classes, as it is completely unrelated to class balance, only extending the gear grind, which I do not enjoy.

[da_krall]

DPS specs that have a healing button and some expertise can heal through way too much. I cant count the amount of games that have sorcerers at the top of damage AND healing. Because expertise buffs everything it makes non specced heals pretty damn viable.

 

But the real issue is this: why was expertise put in the game in the first place?

 

Resilience in WoW was a bandaid to fix bad design in BC. Why would you intentionally foul up your game by putting a stat like this in it?

 

expertise is to stop PvP players complaining that they have to PvE raid to be able to PvP. If they was no magic PvP stat it would require effort and thought beyond that which Bioware wants to put towards PvP. PvP is an after thought, and not even an after thought that had much time devoted to it. If fact PvP in this game is mostly marketing vapourware, it doesnt exist but they told us it did and we believed them.

[Orangerascal]

You're defending this approach to MMO design by telling people to go away, instead of agreeing with them.

 

I never defended anything. I'm just stating what Bioware's business model is and why things are the way they are. Your 'remove' expertise posts are futile because they will trivialize end game pve content. Also the segregation of pve and pvp is a cheap way to extend content life.

 

Also, check out Guild Wars 1/2 pricing model. They don't need you to stay subscribed - so they're not obligated to provide an endless grind.

 

That's what players will eventually want, once they figure out what a scam the traditional model is.

 

Doesn't mean SWtOR can't be improved though. But I guess you don't really want that, because it's "an MMO".

 

Guild wars 2 business model is to release multiple expansions in rapid succession (not to mention an item shop). I think GW1 had 6 expansions but don't quote me on that. The endless grind is unlocked by buying the next expansion.

 

Here's a test: What would happen to wow if they stopped producing content ... do you think it would have as many subscribers?

 

Remember kids: This is what EA wants: BF3 is to CoD what SWTOR is to WoW. They want another wow and made no effort to hide it.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Orangerascal

[DKDArtagnan]

I never defended anything. I'm just stating what Bioware's business model is and why things are the way they are. Your 'remove' expertise posts are futile because they will trivialize end game pve content.

 

Why are you telling people to go away, if you don't agree it's the right direction for the genre?

 

Wouldn't it be smarter to say: you're right, they SHOULD change it. The more people arguing FOR a positive change, the better chance we'll have of it happening. We're ultimately the reason for any change in a market driven genre like this.

 

You still haven't provided ANY reason why removing Expertise would trivialise endgame content. You're not listening AT ALL. I'm saying high-end gear should be rewarded based on PERFORMANCE. So, only good people could get access to it. Most people aren't good - so it will take a while before they're good enough to get it.

 

Also, I want PvE to be about more than a gear-check. I want it to require SKILL - not just gear acquired through the grind.

 

Guild wars 2 business model is to release multiple expansions in rabid succession. I think GW1 had 6 but don't quote me. It also has an item shop. The endless grind is unlocked by buying the next expansion.

 

Here's a test: What would happen to wow if they stopped producing content ... do you think it would have as many subscribers?

 

GW1 had 3 with ~1 year between them. Item shop is 100% for vanity items. Again, you don't know what you're talking about.

 

They don't need them to buy the expansion, because they don't have to make one. They'll make one if the numbers support it - and they will if the game is fun. The grind isn't fun - that's what people are learning today.

 

That's why you have 6 million players paying for a 10 hour shooter like Call of Duty. They don't need people to be addicted. They just need them to have fun with what they like.

 

GW2 is an opportunity to provide people with FUN and not a blatant addiction-based carrot treadmill stolen from others.

 

Your WoW example doesn't make any sense whatsoever. No one is suggesting that content shouldn't be made. I don't know what you're talking about.

 

I'm saying content should be challenging and meaningful. Not a linear predictable timesink - where you time is spent REPEATING the same thing over and over. It should reward skill over time.

 

If the game is boring to the best players, then it's because you can't go out in the world and succeed in meaningful PvP/PvE. That's why we need BOTH challenge and meaningful content.

 

No one said making a great MMO was easy - but investing ~160 million dollars should have bought Bio more than this half-assed game.

Edited January 17, 2012 by DKDArtagnan

[Arakel]

This is an example of your closed mindedness. Do you think Bioware pulled this numbers of of a hat. These numbers are there by design. 50 expertise is about a 0.5% damage increase. Coincidentally 17 willpower is close to the same (0.5% increase in damage).

 

You want someone else to do the maths to prove your argument?

 

This is absolutely the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. You're making assumptions, presenting them as fact, and then expecting other people to spend their time finding the obvious holes in your assumptions.

 

You don't even NEED to do any maths to see the glaring flaw in your arguments for expertise. If you can't see it without doing the mats, I suggest you actually calculate the impact of expertise before making obviously incorrect arguments about its impact.

[SandTrout]

As for 'swaying', it was actually you who derailed the thread when you said this:

Seriously biting my tongue, here.

 

You stated that Expertise helped make it easier to balance classes in response to the OP asking why expertise existed.

 

Expertise does nothing to affect class balance in the least.

 

If it does, please present the manner in which expertise makes Class A balanced with Class B.

 

The thread is on expertise, I did nothing to 'derail' it.

[Darth_Philar]

PvE is about roleplaying, and as such your success and failure should be based on your character's stats.

 

PvP is about action and response times, and therefore your success and failure should be based on the player's ability to read the situation and play the right hand.

I believe that every player in a PvP warzone should be equalized (by class, of course) so that their gear means nothing. If you want expertise to boost your damage, it should be exclusively through stims since knowing when to use them is a player skill, not a character stat.

[Mikisoq]

the problem is that expertise makes you **** newcomers and scare them off of the game.

lvl 49 vs 50 with gear = dead lvl 49 in less than 5 seconds.

[mareign]

Seriously biting my tongue, here.

 

You stated that Expertise helped make it easier to balance classes in response to the OP asking why expertise existed.

 

Expertise does nothing to affect class balance in the least.

 

If it does, please present the manner in which expertise makes Class A balanced with Class B.

 

The thread is on expertise, I did nothing to 'derail' it.

 

Expertise is merely a way to separate pvp from pve content. It stops players from trivializing one set of content by doing the other.

 

I know I saw someone say this earlier but pve gear is NOT as good as pvp gear in pvp. Whatever paltry stat gains you get doesn't even come close to the 15% dmg increase/decease/healing done boost you get. Not to mention the unique set bonuses.

Edited January 17, 2012 by mareign

[Mikisoq]

pvp should be about skill, not about "i can kill you in a couple of hits, you have to hit me 15 times to kill me, hahahahaha"

[Orangerascal]

Seriously biting my tongue, here.

 

You stated that Expertise helped make it easier to balance classes in response to the OP asking why expertise existed.

 

Expertise does nothing to affect class balance in the least.

 

If it does, please present the manner in which expertise makes Class A balanced with Class B.

 

The thread is on expertise, I did nothing to 'derail' it.

 

And I answered it by saying it reduces the delta's between tier levels or did you miss my first post where I provided 3 tier examples.

 

expertise is a flat out canceller. It cancels existing stats .... so if both parties had 1000 expertise they would cancel out and all you need to do is balance the remaining other starts.

 

Whats' easier to balance a delta of 1000 or a delta of 100 ?

 

-------------------------------------------

 

As for pve gear not being better than pvp gear? Would you take + 170 willpower + 250 endurance or 10% more damage and less. I'm pretty sure they balance out, I don't have the formulas on me. I know that 2500 hp's means I have 15% more life.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Orangerascal