gryhmr Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) DPS specs that have a healing button and some expertise can heal through way too much. I cant count the amount of games that have sorcerers at the top of damage AND healing. Because expertise buffs everything it makes non specced heals pretty damn viable. But the real issue is this: why was expertise put in the game in the first place? Resilience in WoW was a bandaid to fix bad design in BC. Why would you intentionally foul up your game by putting a stat like this in it? Edited January 17, 2012 by gryhmr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talkative Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Resilience in WoW was a bandaid to fix bad design in BC. Why would you intentionally fould up your game by putting a stat like this in it? Haven't been able to get a straight answer out of devs ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hambunctious Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 It's not their only bad change to the game. The gear change came later, and the class/AC stat realignment came a little earlier than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orangerascal Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 why not? It's a stat that makes it easy for developers to balance classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swHERO Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 If the expertise was removed, there is no need for pvp gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gryhmr Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 If the expertise was removed, there is no need for pvp gear. What? Of course there would still be a reason you don't need a stat that buffs EVERYTHING to make the gear attractive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbocat Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 If the expertise was removed, there is no need for pvp gear. lvl 50 500 expertise vs lvl 50 500 expertise equal eachother Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gryhmr Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 lvl 50 500 expertise vs lvl 50 500 expertise equal eachother Well if one of them has a healing button they do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SandTrout Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 why not? It's a stat that makes it easy for developers to balance classes.Expertise does absolutely nothing to balance the classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swHERO Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 What? Of course there would still be a reason you don't need a stat that buffs EVERYTHING to make the gear attractive. I disagree. There should be a benefit from pvp gear in PVP. Lets say in wow, if you like doing rated arena, and rated BG you can get the best pvp gear. Why shouldnt they have a benefit from that? Same thing here, even tho its easy to get the gear atm, but i hope there will get better gear from doing rated wz and stuff. If you dont like expertise cause people get buffed versus another player, dont play pvp ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vrgadin Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Well if one of them has a healing button they do not. exactly.....fix guardians mitigation and give us a self heal. we already do the least amount of damage compared to powertechs and tank specced sins. Edited January 17, 2012 by vrgadin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orangerascal Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Expertise does absolutely nothing to balance the classes. Nice one liner ... care to elaborate? Here's a simple example of how expertise helps with balancing by keeping the Delta's of your main stat and endurance low and preventing 'power creep' seen in so many games: lvl 50 t1 vs lvl 50 t1 --- both 10% expertise. Expertise just cancels each other out leaving just the stats for balancing. Ability A deals 10% of target's health as planned by design. lvl 50 t2 vs lvl 50 t2 --- both 20% expertise, both get +40 endurance and + 40 main stat. Expertise just cancels each other out leaving just the stats for balancing. Ability A now deals 15% of target's health. They now that the ability scales badly relative to armor, endurance and main stat and can adjust accordingly. Base damage is increased but coefficient damage is scaled back. Ability A now deals 10% as planned. lvl 50 t3 vs lvl 50 t3 --- both 30% expertise, both get +80 endurance and + 80 main stat. Expertise just cancels each other out leaving just the stats for balancing. Ability A deals 10% after balance according to design principle. Edited January 17, 2012 by Orangerascal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SandTrout Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Nice one liner ... care to elaborate? Here's a simple example of how expertise helps with balancing by keeping the Delta's of your main stat and endurance low and preventing 'power creep' seen in so many games: lvl 50 t1 vs lvl 50 t1 --- both 10% expertise. Expertise just cancels each other out leaving just the stats for balancing. Ability A deals 10% of target's health as planned by design. lvl 50 t2 vs lvl 50 t2 --- both 20% expertise, both get +40 endurance and + 40 main stat. Expertise just cancels each other out leaving just the stats for balancing. Ability A now deals 15% of target's health. They now that the ability scales badly relative to armor, endurance and main stat and can adjust occoding. lvl 50 t3 vs lvl 50 t3 --- both 30% expertise, both get +80 endurance and + 80 main stat. Expertise just cancels each other out leaving just the stats for balancing. Ability A deals 10% after balance according to design principle.I agree completely. This has absolutely nothing to do with class balance though. It just proves that expertise turns PvP into a 0 sum arms race so that PvEers that think that they can PvP have a material advantage over people that have just started PvPing. It allows bad older players to feel good about themselves because they they can stomp new players, not because they're good, but because they have a material advantage. Edited January 17, 2012 by SandTrout Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gryhmr Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 When you have a stat that makes you perform significantly better than others, whoever gets that stat first gets to bully everyone else to the point of frustration. Are you winning because you are better or because you leveled faster. When they switch to a 50s only bracket every new 50 is going to be food for people who have expertise. Who wants to play a game where they are at a severe disadvantage like that? I certainly do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orangerascal Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) I agree completely. This has absolutely nothing to do with class balance though. It just proves that expertise turns PvP into a 0 sum arms race so that PvEers that think that they can PvP have a material advantage over people that have just started PvPing. It allows bad older players to feel good about themselves because they they can stomp new players, not because they're good, but because they have a material advantage. Expertise has nothing to do with that. At least understand the problem before randomly QQing. If expertise did not exist the same piece of gear will have: 1) more endurance 2) more str, cun, aim, wil Because the game has been tuned to these values, the end game bosses, the heroic dungeons and even your class quest will need to change. Changing these values would mean months of work for bioware. Not to mention if you lower these stats, it will make it so people can do heroics in greens. I doubt anyone wants that. Your problem is with the gear disparity that veteran players get over newer players. A problem that will always exist because of the nature of mmo's. Suck it up, you picked a genre where people with more time to play will perform better. I've underlined key points to make it easier to understand because most people suffer from selective reading and the ability to have 0 critical thinking skills. I blame the horrible education system. Edited January 17, 2012 by Orangerascal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennyrosso Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 If the expertise was removed, there is no need for pvp gear. Well...if expertise was removed then pve gear = pvp gear meaning u can kill the hardest boss after 2 month of pvp and 1 week of pve. And again u can kill valor rank 40 ppl on your first week of pvp after u cleared all the pve content... ...I'm not saying I don't like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swHERO Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 When you have a stat that makes you perform significantly better than others, whoever gets that stat first gets to bully everyone else to the point of frustration. Are you winning because you are better or because you leveled faster. When they switch to a 50s only bracket every new 50 is going to be food for people who have expertise. Who wants to play a game where they are at a severe disadvantage like that? I certainly do not. All have to start somewhere duh.. You have to work for the gear. You might aswell just say, all should have the same gear, and there shouldnt be a difference from people who have raided done HM Flashpoints and done alot of pvp, thats kinda what your saying. And thats is wrong... Farm warzones farm HM whatever you want, and get better gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swHERO Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Expertise has nothing to do with that. At least understand the problem before randomly QQing. If expertise did not exist the same piece of gear will have: 1) more endurance 2) main str, cun, aim, wil Because the game has been tuned to these values. The end game bosses, the heroic dungeons and even your class quest. Changing these values would mean months of work for bioware. Not to mention if you lower these stats, it will make it so people can do heroics in greens. I doubt anyone wants that. Your problem is with the gear disparity that veteran players get over newer players. A problem that will always exist because of the nature of mmo's. Suck it up, you picked a genre where people with more time to play will perform better. I've underlined key points to make it easier to understand because most people suffer from selective reading and the ability to have 0 critical thinking skills. I blame the horrible education system. You are so right, people just dont seems to understand.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BubblegumYeti Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 It is a mystery to me as well why Expertise was used. They should have learned from WoW, where it was indeed a bandaid to try to save the totally broken combat/stat inflation system. It seems like a lot of devs seem to think people like everything in WoW and will be happy if it "is familiar". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gryhmr Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) All have to start somewhere duh.. You have to work for the gear. You might aswell just say, all should have the same gear, and there shouldnt be a difference from people who have raided done HM Flashpoints and done alot of pvp, thats kinda what your saying. And thats is wrong... Farm warzones farm HM whatever you want, and get better gear. I have expertise and I absolutely murder people without it. Am I better than them? Probably not. I got here sooner so I win? Not very cool. To clarify though: anyone with expertise and a healing button is absolutely ridiculous. Edited January 17, 2012 by gryhmr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orangerascal Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) I have expertise and I absolutely murder people without it. Am I better than them? Probably not. I got here sooner so I win? Not very cool. Welcome to mmo's, where character progression is determined by time playes ... next time roll on a hardcore server if you want competitive pvp and not faceroll people, there were a few threads going around about it in beta. Edited January 17, 2012 by Orangerascal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKDArtagnan Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Great answer: suck it up Intelligent.... not so much. People don't mind gear progression. The reason Expertise is a bad move, is that it separates the PvP players from the PvE players. It's worse in SWtOR than it is in WoW - because SWtOR is going for open world PvP. This, very simply, means that if you want to enjoy world PvP - you have to grind Expertise gear to be competitive. Yes, the grind. You can't just PvE/raid/HM or whatever you want. No, you need to pursue PvP only to enjoy PvP. THAT IS THE PROBLEM. Gear progression is fine - though there are other problems with it. For one, we need a better matching system. "Rated Warzones" are two words. It's not a magical solution fixing all problems. We need to see it before we can trust anything. What Bioware SHOULD do is reward ALL activities EQUALLY - and according to PERFORMANCE. It shouldn't matter that whether I'm playing in a Warzone, Ilum, a Raid, or a HM flashpoint. I should be rewarded based on my performance - no matter what the heck I'm doing. Then only good players would get access to good gear. Also, "bad" players should be matched with other "bad" players. So they have a fair shot at becoming good. TIME is a horrible, horrible thing to reward. Because it supports the GRIND - and it's there only to keep you paying for a game because of that elusive dangling carrot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gryhmr Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 Welcome to mmo's, where character progression is determined by time playes ... next time roll on a hardcore server if you want competitive pvp and not faceroll people, there were a few threads going around about it in beta. And thats why this genre stagnates. You can have advantages to gear that don't involve boosting every single thing you can do versus someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swHERO Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I have expertise and I absolutely murder people without it. Am I better than them? Probably not. I got here sooner so I win? Not very cool. To clarify though: anyone with expertise and a healing button is absolutely ridiculous. Thats one of the reason there should be lvl 50 brackets and when people reach lvl 50 they should start farming, instead of having same stats that a guy who had farmed wz and HM FP and stuff for a time, people who play more will allmost everytime have more and better gear then the guy playing 1 - 2 hour a day thats not their fault. When people has farmed playing for some time to get the gear, they will all be as good as the other one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orangerascal Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 And thats why this genre stagnates. You can have advantages to gear that don't involve boosting every single thing you can do versus someone else. Except gear is a gating mechanism for pve. If you're a pvp only player, kudos to you. But there are a lot of players that pve. Adding expertise to pve only is possibly the best solution I heard to the gear disparity problem as mentioned by some other poster. Unfortunately this would mean your character won't progress. Unfortunately the casuals always fight for equal gear and the hardcores always have the argument that since they played longer they should have an advantage. GW2 has a nice approach by offering both. Casuals can do battlegrounds as equals and hardcores have the advantage in WvWvW. It's not possible SW2 because as I said: 'gear is a gating mechanism'. GW2 does not have a proper progression endgame like sw2. So Bioware's solution of rated warefronts is a good approach. Casuals can play other casuals, and hardcores can play each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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