Do you support an in game version of Recount. Please give reasons for your answer.

[Macio]

To all that are against combat logs I want to tell them how and why I use them:

 

Before i begin, i am old guy (by gaming standards) that still play WoW by logging in to raid 3-4 times a week. I have been playing WoW for a long time but raiding for last 3-4 years. I have a group of friends/mates that we play together with bit of rotation ever few months (there is always someone that needs to take a break etc).

 

I am a raid leader, i spend some time raeding strategies, getting everything ready so when we go raiding we as a group are ready for thr encounter. Obviusly often it dosn't go according to plan. then I turn to combat log/damage meters. I want to see whether anyone from our group does something wrong. If i find that ONE OF US is not performing the way he needs to or should do (compared to other guys in the team) i will have a chat with him. I spent time myself to read about his class, see his build, look at logs of other people playing same charcter and see is there any difference to the way he plays. Once I know more about it we talk again and I try to help him improve. I never kicked anyone from my group for playing badly. maybe this is why only person have left my group in the last 4 years. This one person was a girl that got offended when after 6 months of slacking (about 60% dps constantly lower compared to any other person in the group even though she had the best gear out of us) i said i will sit her on the bench. Because of how bad of a player she was (but i liked her as a person a lot) all our progression on heroic modes where so much more difficult. So after 6 months of trying to improve her as a player i decided to bench her and she left .... so be it. One person lost from group over 4 years due to Recount/WoL.

 

I play games to enjoy them. I enjoy challange. If am playing a game that there is no challange, i will quit that game. When there is a challange and we are strugling as a group i need to know why is that. Just knowing DPS too low or not enough heal is not good. talking to group: "we need to up the DPS" will make no difference if people that play badly don't know that. They will think they play well and will continue to play badly.

 

If there is a challange and we can't beat it, then I NEED TO HAVE TOOLS TO HELP MY GROUP. Not by kicking lowest dps from it, or lowest healer from my group, but by identyfing weakest links and help them become the strongest link.

 

 

What i am trying to say is that "Damage Meters/Combat Logs" are not bad in itself, they are just incorectly used some people. if you play with people that kick you from raid group cose you not performing well without giving you a chance to imporve - then you are spending your free time playing with wrong people. Leave that guild, look for people that will help you become better player and have even more fun.

 

if you can't improve and just suck at this "raiding stuff" then just play flashpoints and enjoy something that you can do just about right. or just quest. If you do that then you don't have to worry about combat logs.

 

BUT if you want end game loot but don't want to break sweat to get it ... then sorry - not in my group

 

Sorry about the long post but i was reading a lot of posts about it and decided to say something about it.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Macio

[Darnu]

tbh I'm not even sure why this needs a thread. It just is one of those things that should be there and if you don't like them don't pay attention to them or don't use them etc. So far I've not heard one single legit reason for anyone not wanting them. But there are plenty of very good reasons for them to be there.

 

Here it is - if you don't want it on your screen and you don't want to know how well you were at avoiding damage and dealing damage/healing etc and you're fine with guessing your rotation and if crud hits the fan and you're happy with guessing who did what wrong or exactly what it was that went wrong in the first place then with or without recount you're free to do that. Just don't use it. Don't have it on your screen.

 

But one thing though - if it's default and not a third party how long exactly will it take to have various stats tracked? How long will it take for requested features to be implemented? How long will it take for any bugs to be resolved? For those reasons it should be third-party. Leave Bioware to making and maintaining the actual game and the basic essentials and support for the, well, essentials but things people like to have control over and configure etc.

 

Gearscore? Before that you had to post your stats etc. And swtor is no different.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Darnu

[kjryx]

What i am trying to say is that "Damage Meters/Combat Logs" are not bad in itself, they are just incorectly used some people. if you play with people that kick you from raid group cose you not performing well without giving you a chance to imporve - then you are spending your free time playing with wrong people. Leave that guild, look for people that will help you become better player and have even more fun.

 

This is the crux of the problem. In-game logs these days are too frequently used for the wrong reasons. Used in a guild, or among a steady group, logs can be great tools. Used by people looking to out epeen someone in a random PUG, or to set arbitrary requirements without taking into account different play styles and mechanics, it's just a PITA. Even raiding in games that had in-game logs, we didn't worry about the numbers until we could parse full logs after various attempts.

 

Offline logs work great for the first purpose, and they prevent misuse and epeen gloating. They allow players the tools they need to see how they're doing, and let community sites post averages of large number of players for different classes. I don't even mind the after-action kind of logs that we get in WZs. But logs during an instance would likely get misused far more often than they're used properly.

[livnthedream]

Resorting to making the implication that those with a different viewpoint than you have are "childish", eh?

 

if you really are going to interpret what i wrote in that way, then im going to have to say you are, yes.

 

Heh, the gunnery commando stacking issue is a bug that is easy to see. Scrutinizing over a class doing 1 or 2% more dps after running a hundred combat log parses is a different matter altogether. This was the type of stuff that was complained about on that other game's forum thanks to meters.

 

that was merely an example. there are tons of non apparent bugs that without a combat log its impossible to spot. feel free to google the expose weakness bug in rift, since its one of the newest/biggest ones.

 

I don't really want combat efficiency scrutinized at the spreadsheet level by players - that should remain the developer's job.

 

i disagree. first, because there are many many more of us than them. second, we are actually playing on the live client, which is always different from the dev play pen. third, because devs are inherently too close to the game. they see these things day in and day out and it makes it super easy for them to skip over or dismiss "bugs" from the many different builds they see. in terms of overall class balance, that very debate is already raging without any kind of evidence to back it up. look at the many forums and "who is best at x" posts. bioware stated that the game is balanced within 5%, i for one feel its very close to that, and infact that number is accurate. however, proof is always nice.

 

I've already said that some UI elements need some major work - buff/debuff timers included.

 

We don't need an addon to warn us to move out of the fire.

 

i never once said we did. i think dbm was an atrocity. however, its not too hard to draw the parallel with information processing vs getting information. there are some very nice addons i want for swtor. there are also a number i dont want. what some of us deem "essential" many others dont.

 

Not that old, though - I guess we'll find out for sure this week.

 

before the summit yesterday the last quote i personally saw was from launch, and it confirmed nothing. from the info presented yesterday im not quite happy, but it is "good enough" for the uses that we need it for. i do want it streamlined though. to get any kind of accurate picture, especially in a raid environment, will lots of fairly precious time.

 

Handing a tool like Recount (in the form that WoW has - IE: unrestricted) to a MMO playerbase with Internet anonymity seems too much like handing a terrorist cell a crate of explosives. You know someone is going to get blown up, it's just a matter of when and where.

 

its no different than the morons discriminating based on hp. on your own server its very easy to handle them, blacklist. cross server (i hope it never comes to pass) we really need cross server ignore. problem solved.

 

it is very interesting that you try to say anything "is forced on you" when there is that toggle switch to make it more difficult.

 

This really is starting to feel like all those, "the content is too easy" threads on the WoW forums that seemed to be spearheaded by posters that had absolutely zero hardmode achievements.

 

sure, im a random scrub arguing over the interwebs to make content i will never see more difficult. that makes perfect sense! nightmare right now is a complete joke. im REALLY glad that its being looked at, and atleast post 1.2 we will see much better encounters in terms of both mechanics and difficulty. after reading the breakdown of what was discussed and revealed at the summit yesterday, they bought themselves a reprieve. the game is headed in a much better direction. lets see if they actually deliver.

[Raeln]

if you really are going to interpret what i wrote in that way, then im going to have to say you are, yes.

 

=(

 

 

that was merely an example. there are tons of non apparent bugs that without a combat log its impossible to spot. feel free to google the expose weakness bug in rift, since its one of the newest/biggest ones.

 

Rift has had combat logs and parsers since release. Your expose weakness bug in Rift must not have been "game breaking" if it was just recently discovered a year after release.

 

Not a good example, methinks.

 

i disagree. first, because there are many many more of us than them. second, we are actually playing on the live client, which is always different from the dev play pen. third, because devs are inherently too close to the game. they see these things day in and day out and it makes it super easy for them to skip over or dismiss "bugs" from the many different builds they see. in terms of overall class balance, that very debate is already raging without any kind of evidence to back it up. look at the many forums and "who is best at x" posts. bioware stated that the game is balanced within 5%, i for one feel its very close to that, and infact that number is accurate. however, proof is always nice.

 

If the content is being completed and no classes are being benched in lieu of others, then that is all the proof you need.

 

I certainly remember times in WoW's history where classes were being benched WITH damage meters being available. Perhaps those times would not have been so drastic without meters and a combat log.

 

After all, aren't games supposed to be fun to play? Crunching numbers like it is a job is not "fun" for many.

 

sure, im a random scrub arguing over the interwebs to make content i will never see more difficult. that makes perfect sense! nightmare right now is a complete joke. im REALLY glad that its being looked at, and atleast post 1.2 we will see much better encounters in terms of both mechanics and difficulty. after reading the breakdown of what was discussed and revealed at the summit yesterday, they bought themselves a reprieve. the game is headed in a much better direction. lets see if they actually deliver.

 

I'm all for making nightmare mode "EQ1 sleeper" difficulty. Give the supposed hardcores something to bash their brains in with - just don't inflate the gear levels to accomplish it. MMO hardmodes won't be like that much anymore, developers have figured out that many players aren't really interested in challenge as much as they are with creating a caste system in-game that consists of the "haves" and "have-nots". The entire argument is merely wrapped in a thin veil named "challenge".

Edited March 7, 2012 by Raeln

[GOYAFIDO]

After all, aren't games supposed to be fun to play? Crunching numbers like it is a job is not "fun" for many.

 

It IS fun for many and therefore not a "job".

 

...Give the supposed hardcores something to bash their brains in with - just don't inflate the gear levels to accomplish it.

 

Why do casual players seek to to ruin the game for people who actually like trying to do better rather than just "show up" and press buttons until something falls down? Why do people who just want to "show up" have such a problem with people who actually try hard doing better and doing it faster? This is more "let's hand out participation trophies so people don't get their feelings hurt" instead of having first, second and third place.

 

Why SHOULDN'T people who do hard modes get better gear?

 

Why do people have such a huge problem with being not as good, or wealthy or as well geared as other people--WHEN THEY CLEARLY DON'T WANT TO TRY AS HARD?

 

Just because some people don't mind not even making it onto the stand, doesn't mean we all don't mind it.

 

developers have figured out that many players aren't really interested in challenge as much as they are with creating a caste system in-game that consists of the "haves" and "have-nots".

 

"Many" isn't very meaningful. The majority of the people complaining about being "have nots" are the same people complaining about not being able to play "casually."

 

So the more casual players on the whole will have less money and worse gear than the hardcore players...just like IRL.

 

Why do people think this is unfair?

 

The entire argument is merely wrapped in a thin veil named "challenge".

 

You clearly don't want people who try hard to do better than those who just "show up" and you will paint all such players with the "elitist/epeener" brush to support this position.

 

Childish indeed as the other poster said.

Edited March 7, 2012 by GOYAFIDO

[TheSkate]

Well thanks to the guild summit we know that in-game parsing, recount style, isn't coming for a very long time. An API that supports mods will not be available for an even longer time.

 

This thread is arguing about something that will not be implemented until some time after Same Gender Romances which means most likely AFTER version 2.0 comes out.

 

THANK YOU BIOWARE!

Edited March 7, 2012 by TheSkate

[livnthedream]

Rift has had combat logs and parsers since release. Your expose weakness bug in Rift must not have been "game breaking" if it was just recently discovered a year after release.

 

Not a good example, methinks.

 

the spec that utilizes the mechanic just became viable 3ish months ago, it was discovered in weeks, and was recently fixed in a patch. keep in mind that games endgame content is actually tuned (without multiple difficulty levels) to the level that having a healer dpsing (chloromancer) in the raid or not is the difference between a win and a fail. hammerknell fortress in general is on par with ulduar for both fun and challenge aswell as feel. its an achievement that should be copied. keep in mind this is merely 1 bug among literally hundreds that wouldnt have been discovered without combat log. you can look at the warrior patch notes since release and find 50+ from that alone. go look up the slayers bearing that has been an ongoing problem since release.

 

without a combat log theorycraft only goes so far. right now we have a very good idea of stat weights etc, to fine tune it though we need confirmation that abilities are actually performing as they should.

 

 

If the content is being completed and no classes are being benched in lieu of others, then that is all the proof you need.

 

I certainly remember times in WoW's history where classes were being benched WITH damage meters being available. Perhaps those times would not have been so drastic without meters and a combat log.

 

you mean locks with naxx, mages with sunwell and mostly melee with spine? all of these were due more to mechanics than because of actual damage. both rolling ignite and multiple destro lock/shadowpriest synergy are extremely close to what we are currently seeing with bh/cam stacking. while it isnt a "widespread" problem i personally have seen reports of many guilds stacking bhs, and several acs getting excluded from flashpoints (sniper being most common, especially after its nerf patch) for doing terrible damage, without any founding basis. both in wow, and here, bads will be bads. there are limits to how worthwhile min/maxing is.

 

 

After all, aren't games supposed to be fun to play? Crunching numbers like it is a job is not "fun" for many.

 

thats why the community that DOES enjoy number crunching makes those numbers known. not everyone needs to crunch numbers, nor should they. we have access to arguably the most impressive tool ever created by mankind at our fingertips, and SO many are too lazy to use it. a little bit of not only class knowledge, but basic game mechanic knowledge, goes a long way.

 

I'm all for making nightmare mode "EQ1 sleeper" difficulty. Give the supposed hardcores something to bash their brains in with - just don't inflate the gear levels to accomplish it. MMO hardmodes won't be like that much anymore, developers have figured out that many players aren't really interested in challenge as much as they are with creating a caste system in-game that consists of the "haves" and "have-nots". The entire argument is merely wrapped in a thin veil named "challenge".

 

i havent seen anything about inflating gear levels. i really dont see how inflated gear levels pertain to the situation. as to your point about caste vs challenge, thats pretty arguable also in all honesty. what kind of percents of the population, and such is something that neither of us will never know unless bioware actually throws some hard numbers at us, even then, how they would actually determine those is baffling to me.

 

i personally know from first hand experience that harder content makes people better players, and for some keeps them playing. i personally no longer play the game that must not be named, but i do keep tabs on it in the hopes that it gives me reason to return. the latest blog they produced about pve content is a pretty perfect example of why i dont play anymore. i personally feel they way missed the mark in terms of both difficulty and design with its last 3 raid tiers.

[Raeln]

It IS fun for many and therefore not a "job".

 

Opinion, just like mine.

 

Why do casual players seek to to ruin the game for people who actually like trying to do better rather than just "show up" and press buttons until something falls down? Why do people who just want to "show up" have such a problem with people who actually try hard doing better and doing it faster? This is more "let's hand out participation trophies so people don't get their feelings hurt" instead of having first, second and third place.

 

There is a difference between "ruining" and being "accessible".

 

Why SHOULDN'T people who do hard modes get better gear?

 

Hard modes should award prestige items to minimize item level stat inflation.

 

Why do people have such a huge problem with being not as good, or wealthy or as well geared as other people--WHEN THEY CLEARLY DON'T WANT TO TRY AS HARD?

 

What does TRY AS HARD even mean?

 

If anything, having the level of data that addons and meters can provide would make the game easier, thus making the game easier overall (until developers ramp up the challenge again).

 

"Many" isn't very meaningful. The majority of the people complaining about being "have nots" are the same people complaining about not being able to play "casually."

 

So the more casual players on the whole will have less money and worse gear than the hardcore players...just like IRL.

 

Why do people think this is unfair?

 

Actually, I think it would be an inverse relationship if compared to real life. Seems to me that the more successful people probably have less free time to sink into video games. Take that for what you will though.

 

You clearly don't want people who try hard to do better than those who just "show up" and you will paint all such players with the "elitist/epeener" brush to support this position.

 

I think you need to remember that in the end, this is still just a video game - not a real life competition.

 

Childish indeed as the other poster said.

 

I see. Your opinion is noted.

[Raeln]

the spec that utilizes the mechanic just became viable 3ish months ago, it was discovered in weeks, and was recently fixed in a patch. keep in mind that games endgame content is actually tuned (without multiple difficulty levels) to the level that having a healer dpsing (chloromancer) in the raid or not is the difference between a win and a fail. hammerknell fortress in general is on par with ulduar for both fun and challenge aswell as feel. its an achievement that should be copied. keep in mind this is merely 1 bug among literally hundreds that wouldnt have been discovered without combat log. you can look at the warrior patch notes since release and find 50+ from that alone. go look up the slayers bearing that has been an ongoing problem since release.

 

without a combat log theorycraft only goes so far. right now we have a very good idea of stat weights etc, to fine tune it though we need confirmation that abilities are actually performing as they should.

 

Oh the cleric vs chloro drama - how I remember that. Nice that the content is tuned so tightly that "thou must bringest a chloromancer instead of another cleric" to succeed isn't it?

 

That's what you get when you have unrestricted parsing out of the box.

 

I do not want it for TOR.

 

you mean locks with naxx, mages with sunwell and mostly melee with spine? all of these were due more to mechanics than because of actual damage. both rolling ignite and multiple destro lock/shadowpriest synergy are extremely close to what we are currently seeing with bh/cam stacking. while it isnt a "widespread" problem i personally have seen reports of many guilds stacking bhs, and several acs getting excluded from flashpoints (sniper being most common, especially after its nerf patch) for doing terrible damage, without any founding basis. both in wow, and here, bads will be bads. there are limits to how worthwhile min/maxing is.

 

BH/Com stacking will be fixed.

 

thats why the community that DOES enjoy number crunching makes those numbers known. not everyone needs to crunch numbers, nor should they. we have access to arguably the most impressive tool ever created by mankind at our fingertips, and SO many are too lazy to use it. a little bit of not only class knowledge, but basic game mechanic knowledge, goes a long way.

 

A very small number of people enjoy crunching numbers. A larger number of players just want to know the result. The result could be entirely false - doesn't matter as long as someone that is believed to know what they are talking about gives the result.

 

i havent seen anything about inflating gear levels. i really dont see how inflated gear levels pertain to the situation. as to your point about caste vs challenge, thats pretty arguable also in all honesty. what kind of percents of the population, and such is something that neither of us will never know unless bioware actually throws some hard numbers at us, even then, how they would actually determine those is baffling to me.

 

As long as Bioware keeps the normal mode difficulty level where it is - elitism may stay reigned in. Only time will tell.

 

Regarding the caste system, you need look no further than the old raiders that pretended to be AFK at the mailboxes in main cities in WoW. That's what happens when the best gear is only rewarded in the most difficult of content. If it looks the same as the lesser tiers, you better anchor yourself in for a tidal wave of drama.

 

i personally know from first hand experience that harder content makes people better players, and for some keeps them playing.

 

Only affects those that desire to do hardmode content. The rest of the larger portion of the playerbase could care less.

 

i personally no longer play the game that must not be named, but i do keep tabs on it in the hopes that it gives me reason to return. the latest blog they produced about pve content is a pretty perfect example of why i dont play anymore. i personally feel they way missed the mark in terms of both difficulty and design with its last 3 raid tiers.

 

There is a reason why the last 3 raid tiers were designed that way.

[Blackwaternvy]

First.... WoW has no bearing on this game. The constant comparisons with WoW is rather annoying. As founders were here to make a new game better... TOR isnt WoW nor will it ever be WoW.

 

As the main tank in a nightmare ops guild and raid leader I would love to have this tool for the obvious reasons of seeing and judging personal performances of my fellow players. That being said so much can be decided by seeing whos damage can do what. Who can burst and who cant then assign assignments to those players correctly. People that advocate against this can only be worried that their performance isnt up to par... most of them being pugs. Im not worried about my guilds performance to that degree where I will gkick for bad performances... the tool would be used for analyze data for my guild... not pugs.

[GOYAFIDO]

What does TRY AS HARD even mean?

 

I think that covers your position and the position of most of the virulently anti-information crowd quite nicely. Once you figure it out you will have your answer.

[Daggerhowl]

First.... WoW has no bearing on this game. The constant comparisons with WoW is rather annoying. As founders were here to make a new game better... TOR isnt WoW nor will it ever be WoW.

 

As the main tank in a nightmare ops guild and raid leader I would love to have this tool for the obvious reasons of seeing and judging personal performances of my fellow players. That being said so much can be decided by seeing whos damage can do what. Who can burst and who cant then assign assignments to those players correctly. People that advocate against this can only be worried that their performance isnt up to par... most of them being pugs. Im not worried about my guilds performance to that degree where I will gkick for bad performances... the tool would be used for analyze data for my guild... not pugs.

 

 

I don't agree.

At the end of the day, people asking for "information" what they want really is "shortcuts".

They are more worried for getting the result as fast as possible than about thinking how the group will get there. Without that kind of "information" people is forced to strategize, try different things, think out of the box. Possibly the strategy that ends working for your group and leads to a boss kill (that we all agree is what matters, isn't it?) would be completely different than the supposedly "unique" one (enter TankSpot). First kills will be rewarded to smart teams, not droid ones.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Daggerhowl

[Horusrage]

I am not in favour of Recount version as can be used to discriminate ... I can see both sides of the arguement thanks to previously seeing it in wow.

 

My opinion it hampered peoples social ability because of the constant need to police those instead of feeling over all the group effort is good.

 

+ If your damage is low you tend to judge that for yourself in advance of actually entering the operation (raid) situation.

 

I am fully aware that Recount covers all other basis and gives you an idea of people that are contributing ... but I view alot of that as the blame game. "Oh we lost because x is low and a noob." that has been thrown around alot ... in my opinion a failure by the group is the groups (all) fault ... adjust strategy and see how it works.

 

That being said I agree with the suggestion that you can have a self recount only to see how you are going. But it should have no ability to publish it to the rest of the ops group beyond the leader of it as an option.

 

As for those that "think" they are the best. Have good long look at what you are doing an read your abilties in detail ... there could be something you over looked. (frequently in the game there are people that just haven't read things properly or tested their abilities out in situations)

[Raeln]

I think that covers your position and the position of most of the virulently anti-information crowd quite nicely. Once you figure it out you will have your answer.

 

"Virulently anti-information crowd" - lewlz, over dramatic much?

 

I fully believe the player should be presented with the information they need to play. I'm perfectly fine with a personal combat log. I'm even fine with logging that personal log to a file so a 3rd party parser can show them what went wrong afterward.

 

I guess I'm in the "anti-information crowd" because I feel that having a meter plastered on the UI is overly distracting, causes tunnel vision and in general, more problems with drama than it solves?

 

I guess I'm in the "anti-information crowd" because I want a consent ability so that I'm in control of who can see my in-game actions.

 

I suppose you were fine with anyone seeing your activity feed on the WoW armory too, eh?

[TheSkate]

Well thanks to the guild summit we know that in-game parsing, recount style, isn't coming for a very long time.

 

An API that supports mods will also not be available any day soon. The devs said "No ETA on it. Enormous technical challenge. We want to get to it some day. But right now we have to get through more important live stuff." So it isn't even being worked on.

 

This thread is arguing about something that will not be implemented until some time in the distant future. Probably a while after Same Gender Romances since at least that is being actively worked on right now, and the devs said that SGR probably won't be out before the end of the year.

 

THANK YOU BIOWARE!

Edited March 8, 2012 by TheSkate

[Darnu]

An API that supports mods will also not be available any day soon. The devs said "No ETA on it. Enormous technical challenge. We want to get to it some day. But right now we have to get through more important live stuff." So it isn't even being worked on.

 

I don't get that. I looked up Hero Engine and it's specifically designed to work with other programs and API's etc. However, it seems that SWTOR devs picked it up before it was finished and Bioware customized it and finished it. So I'd be very surprised if when they were essentially half-building/customizing an engine before it was available to other developers commercially with the intention of saving a year or two in dev time why they would omit or delete functions of the engine which made it an engine specifically for MMO's especially as easy integration with other programs is such an inherently vital part of the engine. And while I appreciate that addon developers would take a while to develop addons and the list of available ones isn't instantly available and grows over time, the ability to do so should have been available from the start. So it seems that the engine the SWTOR team (the site said Bioware completed its development and customization) is not Hero Engine, but half hero engine and half custom-made.

 

So there should be no reason at all for the development to take long or be complex in any way. Unless they actually broke the engine

[lainewell]

I would love an in game recount ...

[Kheldras]

No - breeds only Nerdism & Elitism.

[livnthedream]

I don't get that. I looked up Hero Engine and it's specifically designed to work with other programs and API's etc. However, it seems that SWTOR devs picked it up before it was finished and Bioware customized it and finished it. So I'd be very surprised if when they were essentially half-building/customizing an engine before it was available to other developers commercially with the intention of saving a year or two in dev time why they would omit or delete functions of the engine which made it an engine specifically for MMO's especially as easy integration with other programs is such an inherently vital part of the engine. And while I appreciate that addon developers would take a while to develop addons and the list of available ones isn't instantly available and grows over time, the ability to do so should have been available from the start. So it seems that the engine the SWTOR team (the site said Bioware completed its development and customization) is not Hero Engine, but half hero engine and half custom-made.

 

So there should be no reason at all for the development to take long or be complex in any way. Unless they actually broke the engine

 

its very likely that it is minor and they have stuck it on the back burner in favor of other issues. depending on how the combat log is written, and what exactly is available in it, act and its overlay will be in the "good enough" range for what we are looking for.

 

i still believe that the combat log should be raid wide though. in the implementation that suggested to get a full raid overview will be a giant pita. if they want us more relying on visual ques, and not data, then they REALLY need to step up there game in both encounter design and art/creature design.

[Kamarbrown]

Yes, i want to see who is doing the best dps.

[shopkeeper]

No - breeds only Nerdism & Elitism.

 

Probably the most ironic statement I've read today on the subject.

 

People who think a Recount-like tool breeds elitism and bloating of epeen are probably just people who have been hard done by because they have been previously chastised by fellow players because they could not be bothered putting effort into playing the game, and by extension, ruin it for others who ENJOY putting effort into it.

Tell me.. Would you not feel hard done by if a co-worker of yours who was getting paid the same as you slacked off and was not getting reprimanded because your boss never does a team review? Of course you would!

You sit there complaining about the existence of a tool because the people who used it gave you an unpleasant experience? Well guess what? Your sub-par play has made the game an unpleasant experience for them when they have to baby sit you. Much like how you would feel hard done by in the aforementioned RL example.

 

Truth be told, there are people who abuse recount for epeen purposes. There is no point in trying to deny it. To be honest anyone who uses recount is guilty of it at one time or another. But to BLAME the tool for the existence of elitism and occasional unpleasantness is not fair.

People who use recount PROPERLY will say its a tool used for personal improvement and understanding all aspects of a particular boss fight. For example...

"Tank damage seemed unreasonably high in this period. Why? Ok. Recount shows X. We will rotate CD's etc etc"

OR

"Hmm my damage output seems kind of poor atm. Whats the guy (same class) higher than me doing. *Looks at recount* Oh ok he's casting XYZ more here, ill try that."

 

 

TLDR - People who hate recount, are people who cbf playing the game properly. The tool is invaluable to people who use it properly and needs to be implemented.

 

Vote - Yes

Edited March 12, 2012 by shopkeeper

[Skirata_Kal]

Probably the most ironic statement I've read today on the subject.

 

People who think a Recount-like tool breeds elitism and bloating of epeen are probably just people who have been hard done by because they have been previously chastised by fellow players because they could not be bothered putting effort into playing the game, and by extension, ruin it for others who ENJOY putting effort into it.

 

Or...maybe some of us who do know how to play without addons just didn't like the way that friends, family, etc. were treated in WoW...

 

Tell me.. Would you not feel hard done by if a co-worker of yours who was getting paid the same as you slacked off and was not getting reprimanded because your boss never does a team review? Of course you would!

 

Real world work comparison to a game = Fail...but I'll bite. Here's another real world story to chew on: Two co-workers getting same pay, one appears to be working very hard and develops a fancy looking, user friendly tool. The other works just as hard but his tool isn't as fancy as the first guy's and requires a bit more explanation on how to use...but unlike the first one, the second guy's tool actually works! First guy is praised, showered with rewards including a trip to Hawaii, while the 2nd guy puts in overtime, without extra pay since he's salaried, fixing the problems that the first guy's tool created (yes, I was the 2nd guy IRL). How does this compare to a game? Ever seen the top dps only dps boss and not help with adds forcing others to pick it up? Ever seen guys in WoW BG's fight on the road and never help take/defend a node and still get kudos for being top damage? Ever seen top dps given preferential treatment for loot just on the recount figure alone?

 

 

You sit there complaining about the existence of a tool because the people who used it gave you an unpleasant experience? Well guess what? Your sub-par play has made the game an unpleasant experience for them when they have to baby sit you. Much like how you would feel hard done by in the aforementioned RL example.

 

Truth be told, there are people who abuse recount for epeen purposes. There is no point in trying to deny it. To be honest anyone who uses recount is guilty of it at one time or another. But to BLAME the tool for the existence of elitism and occasional unpleasantness is not fair.

People who use recount PROPERLY will say its a tool used for personal improvement and understanding all aspects of a particular boss fight. For example...

"Tank damage seemed unreasonably high in this period. Why? Ok. Recount shows X. We will rotate CD's etc etc"

OR

"Hmm my damage output seems kind of poor atm. Whats the guy (same class) higher than me doing. *Looks at recount* Oh ok he's casting XYZ more here, ill try that."

 

Nobody here is asking for a cakewalk, free epics or a free ride. To suggest that people who oppose Recount are asking for those or are hiding something is simply trolling. Yes, Recount can be very useful when used right which is why I support having a personal one.

 

 

TLDR - People who hate recount, are people who cbf playing the game properly. The tool is invaluable to people who use it properly and needs to be implemented.

 

Vote - Yes

 

You chastize people for complaining about elitism as a reason for opposing Recount and then you accuse opponents of Recount being bad players? LOL. I hate to break it to you but there are alot of experienced WoW raiders (Vanilla through Wrath for me) who are happy with this game's casual friendly atmosphere and who do not miss WoW one bit! The lack of a recount hasn't slowed my guild's progression one bit. We're somehow miraculously having tons of fun without a dps meter or log. We're figuring out fights without having to look at a log:

 

"Hey! What killed Raj so fast?"

"I think I saw the boss casting spell X"

"Oh..on this next attempt Sam, watch for that and see if you can interrupt it."

"Great! that worked! Good job guys, let's move onto the next one!"

 

Again, I do see the value that a dps meter COULD bring to the table, but I remain of the opinion that this game doesn't need it and the negatives outweigh the positives. But that's me.

[Alexi_son]

I don't see a built in "recount" system as anything except a crutch. Personal use stuff for those who just want one for themselves, sure, go for it. All I've ever seen a group one do is ostracize folks - they're MUCH more prone to error and misuse than valid data. Too much headache, hassle, and elitism comes from them for me to want to bother with one. Edited March 13, 2012 by Alexi_son

[TheSkate]

//SNIP//

 

People who use recount PROPERLY will say its a tool used for personal improvement and understanding all aspects of a particular boss fight. For example...

"Tank damage seemed unreasonably high in this period. Why? Ok. Recount shows X. We will rotate CD's etc etc"

OR

"Hmm my damage output seems kind of poor atm. Whats the guy (same class) higher than me doing. *Looks at recount* Oh ok he's casting XYZ more here, ill try that."

 

Recount doesn't tell you when something was cast by players or NPCs, only that is was cast at some time during the recording session or fight depending what table you look at. For action vs time you need a full up combat log parser, not recount.

 

//SNIP//

Vote - Yes

 

 

IT DOESN'T MATTER... There is not going to be a built-in recount for a very long time as the developers stated that at the guild conference. And a add-on recount? Even farther into the future (version 2.0 or later).

 

Of course I suppose the developers could have been lying. They could actually have a recount already built and ready to deploy, but they are watching this forum to see who whines the most... pro or con. THEN they will decide to deploy it sooner rather than later. Yea, that's it.

Edited March 13, 2012 by TheSkate