Do you support an in game version of Recount. Please give reasons for your answer.

[Leithian]

I tell you what, as a compromise how do the anti meter people feel about an activity meter?

 

It it will display is how much activity x player did during an encounter? If I cant see how much output they are doing I'd settle for seeing that at the least they werent afk / watching tv for a big percentage of the encounter ...

[Raeln]

people are already "whining" about the game being to easy, because it is. thats a large part of the reason that WHY we want recount and such. there should be content that cant quickly or easily be beaten so we have something to actually attain. artificial gating isnt fun, content that is obviously unbeatable, isnt fun. content that is "close" is a HUGE amount of fun. some of the best raids in wow went by this very maxim, and it needs to come back. the recent raid content has been mostly crap across most games. wow itself seems to only have 1 "great" raid per expansion which is just silly.

 

Enjoy what raid content you can get now because in the future there will be little to no raid content at all. I'm not saying this for TOR, I'm saying "future" - as in a few MMO generations from now.

 

for the very reason you have a hard on against it. WE WANT CONTENT FOR US. bioware has all of the tools at its disposal to instigate this, and we arent getting it.

 

You don't need Recount to get difficult content.

You don't need addons to get difficult content.

 

Only one thing needs to happen for you to have your difficult content - Bioware needs to have a business case show it to be profitable to create that specific content.

 

Apparently, that hasn't happened yet.

[Raeln]

I tell you what, as a compromise how do the anti meter people feel about an activity meter?

 

It it will display is how much activity x player did during an encounter? If I cant see how much output they are doing I'd settle for seeing that at the least they werent afk / watching tv for a big percentage of the encounter ...

 

You need a meter to tell you that?

 

Just what is your raid leadership doing, telling jokes on Vent while you are fighting the boss?

[Leithian]

You need a meter to tell you that?

 

Just what is your raid leadership doing, telling jokes on Vent while you are fighting the boss?

 

Im thinking more for pugs not guild events...

[Raeln]

Im thinking more for pugs not guild events...

 

Even in pugs, it's typically not hard to see someone is not committed to the game. They are slow to react, their rotation looks funky. This should be easier to spot in TOR right now since 1 button macros are not possible.

[Katzith]

I like the idea of being able to compare my performance in an operation to other people so I know who to ask if they are doing better than I am how I can do better. This is especially so in a guild run. I know it's a double edged sword wanting a recount style meter, but perhaps the solution is to make it only pop up when certain circumstances occur so there aren't just random kicks for a bad fight or something, like having it available as a guild run type option or only available to somehow be activated by the operation leader (sorry not a programmer so I don't know how unreasonable those suggestions are on that level). Then you know at the beginning when you're invited to the operation whether or not you want to bother running with a crowd that uses such a system.

[GOYAFIDO]

In the end, if you cater to the "pro-recounters" and implement the same style of Recount as is used in WoW, then you damage the "anti-recounters" because future content will be balanced by the developers to assume Recount is being used.

 

This is really not a debatable point. It is a simple binary conclusion. If the developers have to assume that players can play more efficiently than before, they must "raise the bar" on content difficulty to maintain the same perceived level of challenge.

 

If the enrage timer was 2 minutes before Recount, then after Recount - it'll likely shift downward to perhaps 90 seconds to make up for people streamlining their DPS rotations.

 

If players have the ability to track every single interrupt - it stands to reason that future content would then contain even more abilities that need interrupted or even more debuffs that need removed.

 

The "pro-Recounters" want to have a tool that makes them more efficient. Hey, I appreciate that. The problem is that future content will have to be adjusted so that it's still just as challenging after players are at their new level of efficiency. At that point, the "anti-Recounters" must adapt and use Recount or be forced to play a game that is balanced against them.

 

It's not merely as simple as "refusing to use Recount".

 

I think it is that simple.

 

A lot of people are who don't use these types of tools very much seem to have the misapprehension that these tools are a magic wand that can be waved over a player and *POOF* turn them into a demi-god that can instantly crank out double or triple the damage they did before thereby allowing them to plow through content and farm bosses at will thus negating all the developers hard work in an unfair, excessive and overpowering display of brute force.

 

Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

Addons MIGHT, on a warm day with a tail wind, add MAYBE 5%-10% more output IF the players can make use of the data in a meaningful manner. Any more than that and you should look to your players previous methods and specs for why there would such a “magical” increase. Efficiency is NOT godliness.

 

This is well within design tolerance for encounters anyway. Some players will be better than others. That is just how it is.

 

Usually analysis of fights looks more towards the dance of who should be where when doing what to maximize dps, minimize healing and maximize control. To address interrupts, etc., with a lot of encounters, missing an interrupt often causes wipes whether immediately or soon™. This is why players can and DO track interrupts whether using such primitive methods as counting them in their head or, if they are more modern, perhaps a notepad and a pen.

 

Most wipes are caused by poor maneuver and awareness because they cascade into more healing which can cascade into more deaths which will then cause less dps, hps, or threat. Any group that knows it has the strategy and the dance tightly tuned and still falls well short of downing a boss in the damage department can either keep wiping or walk away frustrated, or use those accursed meters to find out who might be wildly short in the damage department and, RIGHTFULLY, swap them out or if the group as a whole is short, which is MUCH more likely in this case, they can walk away until they have enough dps to have a chance at completing that boss.

 

As has been pointed out endlessly and ad nauseam, a decent spec and priority list should get you most of the way as a dpser and indeed they do.

 

Thus:

This whole idea of “addon users = unfairly powerful demi-gods that force developers to make content harder for everyone.” is not logical.

 

EDIT: That Blizzard DID choose to take DBM into account in its development does not absolve players of the responsibility for choosing to NOT use it when it was clearly considered in the design process.

Edited March 3, 2012 by GOYAFIDO

[DaxRendar]

Usually analysis of fights looks more towards the dance of who should be where when doing what to maximize dps, minimize healing and maximize control. To address interrupts, etc., with a lot of encounters, missing an interrupt often causes wipes whether immediately or soon™. This is why players can and DO track interrupts whether using such primitive methods as counting them in their head or, if they are more modern, perhaps a notepad and a pen.

 

Most wipes are caused by poor maneuver and awareness because they cascade into more healing which can cascade into more deaths which will then cause less dps, hps, or threat. Any group that knows it has the strategy and the dance tightly tuned and still falls well short of downing a boss in the damage department can either keep wiping or walk away frustrated, or use those accursed meters to find out who might be wildly short in the damage department and, RIGHTFULLY, swap them out or if the group as a whole is short, which is MUCH more likely in this case, they can walk away until they have enough dps to have a chance at completing that boss.

 

This is accurate. Luckily we are soon going to be getting parsable Combat Logs where you can use an external 3rd Party program like ACT or website like World of Raids to view accurate and meaningful parses of fights along with event timelines. Something that in-game Damage Meters are horribly poor substitutes for.

 

We don't need addons. We don't need Recount/In-game Meters. All that is needed will be coming when Combat Logs are added.

[GOYAFIDO]

This is accurate. Luckily we are soon going to be getting parsable Combat Logs where you can use an external 3rd Party program like ACT or website like World of Raids to view accurate and meaningful parses of fights along with event timelines. Something that in-game Damage Meters are horribly poor substitutes for.

 

We don't need addons. We don't need Recount/In-game Meters. All that is needed will be coming when Combat Logs are added.

 

I am not sure honestly, but perhaps this might apply to you:

 

To address those who don’t want their feelings hurt by mean people with meters:

The epeeners are a tiny percentage of the population and they have ZERO control over YOUR game and YOUR attitude that YOU do not HAND THEM ON A GOLD PLATTER. All this fussing and complaining about them is completely unnecessary and completely YOUR choice!

 

You are VOLUNTEERING to be this miserable. Be RESPONSIBLE FOR YOURSELVES!!!

 

Put the epeeners on ignore and get on with your game life. Even without meters and other addons these will be people you don’t really want to group with and chances are you will never measure up to their standards so you will never group with them anyway…why bother with them at ALL when you DON’T HAVE TO!!!?

 

What you are doing is like smacking yourself in repeatedly in the head with a hammer and then wanting to ban hammers because they give you a headache. Put down the hammer and walk away. You keep pointing out that most players are like YOU so clearly ignoring the epeeners would NEVER reduce the number of groups available to you!

 

I haven’t been kicked in this game but I have been kicked on occasion in other games and sometimes talked down to but has it really hurt my feelings and caused me suffering? Are you kidding me? Who are those people that I should EVER respect or care about what they think? I happily, and sometimes grumpily, take constructive criticism because there is ALWAYS a chance it will improve my game. Good on you if you have something to tell me but please make sure you have YOUR ducks in a row about it before you do so you don’t waste my time.

 

The obvious, logical solution to the hurt feelings problem is to put mean people on ignore on walk away and have fun your way yet people prefer to fuss and complain rather than do this.

 

Here is what a lot of people think when faced with this completely illogical position:

1.) Some people like drama and like to fuss and complain rather than actually find and use a solution to their problem, especially when it is this simple and this easy, and they will grasp at any opportunity to do so no matter how silly.

2.) People complaining want to ban public meters but DON’T want to put the epeeners on ignore because a lot of them WANT TO GET INTO THE EPEENERS GROUPS ANYWAY even though they absolutely, positively DON'T need to run with epeeners to get a complete game experience! One logical conclusion here is that the complainers really AGREE the epeeners are better and will give them a better chance at completing content and want to group with them anyway otherwise why put up with them at all?

 

This clearly maketh one to go “Hmmm.”

Edited March 2, 2012 by GOYAFIDO

[Takachsin]

I had an idea. I briefly skimmed this forum but given the 90 pages I have not read it all.

 

Why not give an end of warzone type screen after the boss fight, you can have it auto pop up or on a keybind. You can look at the stats of the fight on the lockout page, the stats are stored with the lockout so they are reset every lockout, or it could record your most recent fight and your best fight.

 

I was upset there was no damage log or recount at first but as I started raiding I realized I didn't really care. I have been playing with the same people long enough to know they don't suck. We only raid two nights a week and are downing all the HMs and a couple NMs without problem. The recount would give you insight to maybe find out that a different spec does a little more dps but without it it allows you to play your class how you like without feeling bad about not being the "best" spec. It is fun to have the meters to be competitive and see who can beat who or if you can beat your old score but in the end I'm fine either way.

[DaxRendar]

Whoa dude...

 

I am not sure honestly, but perhaps this might apply to you:

 

(Epic long RAGE RANT post)

 

Did I strike a nerve or something by pointing out that in-game meters aren't needed when parse-able logs are added?

 

A thorough analysis of Combat Logs in tools like ACT are far superior to the "analysis lite" supported by Recount - that's just a fact.

 

You totally went off the reservation there going on about Epeeners and such, when I never even mentioned anything about that in my post.

 

This clearly maketh one to go “Hmmm.”

 

Yes, your post did make me go "Hmmm" but probably not for the reasons you wanted it to.

[Raeln]

I am not sure honestly, but perhaps this might apply to you:

 

To address those who don’t want their feelings hurt by mean people with meters:

The epeeners are a tiny percentage of the population and they have ZERO control over YOUR game and YOUR attitude that YOU do not HAND THEM ON A GOLD PLATTER. All this fussing and complaining about them is completely unnecessary and completely YOUR choice!

 

... snip the rest of the lengthy post...

 

The ability of the playerbase to refine their output to a higher level will lead to the developers having to raise the bar.

 

It doesn't matter how many times you try to say no one can make you use meters. When the game itself is designed to assume a player is using a meter, everyone will have to use a meter to have a reasonable chance to succeed.

 

Furthermore, for all the bantering and poking fun that forum posters make about how TOR is a clone of WoW - I simply cannot fathom the zeal that some of the pro-addon crowd have at making this even more of a WoW-clone.

 

It's simply mind-boggling.

 

If you want real challenge, play the MMO without addons, meters, parsers and without watching boss fight videos or reading other player's walkthroughs on bosses. Grab some friends and figure out the mechanics for yourself.

 

"... but, but, but that's stupid. Why reinvent the wheel? We just want the developers to make challenging content."

 

Well, could it be that it doesn't seem challenging partially due to the fact that some players can't run fast enough to read a walkthrough, download an addon to hold their hands or watch a boss video that has a narrator telling you what to do and what not to do? What happened to figuring it out for yourself? When I go hunting for a datacron, typically I at least try to figure out how to get it for myself before resorting to the walkthrough to tell me where to jump.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Raeln

[Meldwyn]

I liked and disliked recount in wow.

 

Liked the ability to know real time or shortly after how I was contributing to a fight.

 

Disliked the focus on numbers over fight mechanics that are far more important.

[livnthedream]

Enjoy what raid content you can get now because in the future there will be little to no raid content at all. I'm not saying this for TOR, I'm saying "future" - as in a few MMO generations from now.

 

sure it will. just like the industry has been stating that single player games will be dead in 5 years for over a decade. you may want raiding, min/maxing, etc to go away but it never will. its to big a part of the gaming legacy, and its too ingrained in gaming culture to ever disappear completely. team based game play is the heart of social gaming and its not going anywhere.

 

You don't need Recount to get difficult content.

You don't need addons to get difficult content.

 

Only one thing needs to happen for you to have your difficult content - Bioware needs to have a business case show it to be profitable to create that specific content.

 

Apparently, that hasn't happened yet.

 

dont bring "addons" in general into the discussion, thats really a whole other bag of worms, which i agree with for the most part, depending on what exactly you determine to be an "addon". recount however, i disagree, we do need something to break down encounter specifics. whether its recount, act, or some other method of display, actual fight breakdown is required. saying otherwise makes me believe you have never faced any truly difficult content. attempting to say we have anything close to that now though is a joke, especially in an environment where we have to guess at half of it, or wipe to it for hours just to understand the mechanics themselves. knowledge is always better.

 

The ability of the playerbase to refine their output to a higher level will lead to the developers having to raise the bar.

 

It doesn't matter how many times you try to say no one can make you use meters. When the game itself is designed to assume a player is using a meter, everyone will have to use a meter to have a reasonable chance to succeed.

 

Furthermore, for all the bantering and poking fun that forum posters make about how TOR is a clone of WoW - I simply cannot fathom the zeal that some of the pro-addon crowd have at making this even more of a WoW-clone.

 

It's simply mind-boggling.

 

If you want real challenge, play the MMO without addons, meters, parsers and without watching boss fight videos or reading other player's walkthroughs on bosses. Grab some friends and figure out the mechanics for yourself.

 

execution should be your barrier to completion, not the information itself. what you just stated is similer to saying "if you want to play the game in hardmode just turn off your monitor!" its stupid. i agree that walkthroughs and such ruin content to a large extent. however thats no excuse to limit information to players in general.

 

"... but, but, but that's stupid. Why reinvent the wheel? We just want the developers to make challenging content."

 

Well, could it be that it doesn't seem challenging partially due to the fact that some players can't run fast enough to read a walkthrough, download an addon to hold their hands or watch a boss video that has a narrator telling you what to do and what not to do? What happened to figuring it out for yourself? When I go hunting for a datacron, typically I at least try to figure out how to get it for myself before resorting to the walkthrough to tell me where to jump.

 

asking that the tools be there to be actually able to quantify the data is very different from asking for hand holding, stop confusing the issue. not that it matters, bioware had already confirmed that we are getting logs, and atleast act, which is more than enough for now.

[GOYAFIDO]

Whoa dude...

 

 

 

Did I strike a nerve or something by pointing out that in-game meters aren't needed when parse-able logs are added?

 

A thorough analysis of Combat Logs in tools like ACT are far superior to the "analysis lite" supported by Recount - that's just a fact.

 

You totally went off the reservation there going on about Epeeners and such, when I never even mentioned anything about that in my post.

 

 

 

Yes, your post did make me go "Hmmm" but probably not for the reasons you wanted it to.

 

Whoa dude...

 

You clearly didn't read the part where I said I don't get upset at people when I have no reason to care what they say to me. I didn't write this for you and I don't know you...I PROMISE you, you didn't upset me.

 

You also clearly missed the part about where I said I wasn't honestly sure my post applied to you. If it doesn't then move along.

 

I only brought it up because the anti-addon (anti-information) people tend to fall into two groups:

 

1.) Information will enable bad people to look at my numbers and be mean to me and hurt my feelings thus reducing my quality of life. This is easily and quickly fixed by not taking them seriously and using "ignore" so there is no reason for people to keep bringing it up.

 

2.) Information will give people an unfair advantage which will require the game developers to increase the difficulty of content to keep up with the advantaged addon users thus leaving the non-addon users behind with more frustration and less access to content and gear. This is demonstrably incorrect so there is no reason for people to keep bringing it up.

 

This leaves little room for any other anti-addon position besides "just cuz."

 

You seem to be pro-information rather than anti-information...but anti-meter, which IS information. Why the seeming discrepancy?

 

We are really just talking about tools whether they are built in or addons. Labeling things as "addons" is just a distraction from the real conversation which is really about some people wanting more information and some people wanting less.

 

The whole "boo hoo mean people" business is just an emotional and unnecessary distraction. The mean people are already here and won't be made more mean by having more data.

 

To be fair I have also seen people mention that another reason to NOT increase data flow is the increased risk of tanks losing threat because people won't know where their threat is which would increase tension and thereby enhance entertainment value. That idea has some value to be sure but I think it also stifles the ability of the developers to increase the difficulty of their content which, except for Nightmare Modes, is already rather easy, I think with precisely with that idea of uncertainty in mind.

 

As long as content and player abilities are tuned with that uncertainty in mind it wouldn't be bad to not have extra tools but I think there will be a hard and relatively low ceiling on content difficulty because of it due to not wanting to have as many bosses one or two shotting players and and players thereby not actually being pushed that hard to perform.

 

I think the most fun would be for there to be no dps heals or tanks like in GW2, which is truly designed and tuned with the above in mind but that seems unlikely.

 

EDIT: Changed some instances of "addon" to "information."

Edited March 2, 2012 by GOYAFIDO

[GOYAFIDO]

The ability of the playerbase to refine their output to a higher level will lead to the developers having to raise the bar.

 

It doesn't matter how many times you try to say no one can make you use meters. When the game itself is designed to assume a player is using a meter, everyone will have to use a meter to have a reasonable chance to succeed.

 

Furthermore, for all the bantering and poking fun that forum posters make about how TOR is a clone of WoW - I simply cannot fathom the zeal that some of the pro-addon crowd have at making this even more of a WoW-clone.

 

It's simply mind-boggling.

 

If you want real challenge, play the MMO without addons, meters, parsers and without watching boss fight videos or reading other player's walkthroughs on bosses. Grab some friends and figure out the mechanics for yourself.

 

"... but, but, but that's stupid. Why reinvent the wheel? We just want the developers to make challenging content."

 

Well, could it be that it doesn't seem challenging partially due to the fact that some players can't run fast enough to read a walkthrough, download an addon to hold their hands or watch a boss video that has a narrator telling you what to do and what not to do? What happened to figuring it out for yourself? When I go hunting for a datacron, typically I at least try to figure out how to get it for myself before resorting to the walkthrough to tell me where to jump.

 

So again,

 

Anti-addon (anti-information) People tend to fall into one of two groups:

 

1.) Information will enable bad people to look at my numbers and be mean to me and hurt my feelings thus reducing my quality of life. This is easily and quickly fixed by not taking them seriously and using "ignore" so there is no reason for people to keep bringing it up.

 

2.) Information will give people an unfair advantage which will require the game developers to increase the difficulty of content to keep up with the advantaged addon users thus leaving the non-addon users behind with more frustration and less access to content and gear. EDIT: While in fact demonstrably CORRECT, (not sure why I expressed this this way as I have always hated needing a crystal ball like DBM), it is also demonstrably the responsibility of the PLAYERS who CHOSE to not avail themselves of information made available by the game provider.

 

 

 

This leaves little room for any other anti-information position besides "just cuz."

 

EDIT: Snipped unnecessary repeat.

EDIT: Changed some instances of "addon" to "information."

Edited March 2, 2012 by GOYAFIDO

[Raeln]

sure it will. just like the industry has been stating that single player games will be dead in 5 years for over a decade. you may want raiding, min/maxing, etc to go away but it never will. its to big a part of the gaming legacy, and its too ingrained in gaming culture to ever disappear completely. team based game play is the heart of social gaming and its not going anywhere.

 

I didn't say team based play was going away.

 

The activity currently known as "raiding" is on the way out the door though. Look how difficult it is already to get even 8, 10, 15, 16 or 25 players together at the same time.

 

dont bring "addons" in general into the discussion, thats really a whole other bag of worms, which i agree with for the most part, depending on what exactly you determine to be an "addon". recount however, i disagree, we do need something to break down encounter specifics. whether its recount, act, or some other method of display, actual fight breakdown is required. saying otherwise makes me believe you have never faced any truly difficult content. attempting to say we have anything close to that now though is a joke, especially in an environment where we have to guess at half of it, or wipe to it for hours just to understand the mechanics themselves. knowledge is always better.

 

Can they be useful? Yes.

 

Are they necessary? No.

 

execution should be your barrier to completion, not the information itself. what you just stated is similer to saying "if you want to play the game in hardmode just turn off your monitor!" its stupid. i agree that walkthroughs and such ruin content to a large extent. however thats no excuse to limit information to players in general.

 

Abstaining from watching boss kill videos, using addons/meters and reading walkthroughs are no where in the same league as "turning your monitor off" - don't be stupid.

 

WoW spoiled the MMO genre with too much information. Now some players feel as if they don't have spreadsheets of data present, they can't even function.

 

asking that the tools be there to be actually able to quantify the data is very different from asking for hand holding, stop confusing the issue. not that it matters, bioware had already confirmed that we are getting logs, and atleast act, which is more than enough for now.

 

Yes, logs are on the way. These logs, from my understanding, also only show you your performance - not the rest of the group. So the raid leader will still not be able to parse everyone's data. Guild members should be able to upload their logs and a parser be able to assemble them, yes - but it is not as convenient as good ole' Recount.

[Raeln]

So again,

 

Anti-addon (anti-information) People tend to fall into one of two groups:

 

1.) Information will enable bad people to look at my numbers and be mean to me and hurt my feelings thus reducing my quality of life. This is easily and quickly fixed by not taking them seriously and using "ignore" so there is no reason for people to keep bringing it up.

 

How many players can you put on /ignore and when the future LFG system goes cross-server, will we be able to ignore players on other servers?

 

2.) Information will give people an unfair advantage which will require the game developers to increase the difficulty of content to keep up with the advantaged addon users thus leaving the non-addon users behind with more frustration and less access to content and gear. This is demonstrably incorrect so there is no reason for people to keep bringing it up.

 

Please demonstrate then.

 

I can demonstrate a link between addon usage and content design change.

 

I can also demonstrate links between addon usage and unfair player advantages, but that really doesn't have anything to do with Recount.

 

Note: last post from me before the weekend. I'll check back in on this thread Monday morning.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Raeln

[GOYAFIDO]

How many players can you put on /ignore and when the future LFG system goes cross-server, will we be able to ignore players on other servers?

 

 

 

Please demonstrate then.

 

I can demonstrate a link between addon usage and content design change.

 

I can also demonstrate links between addon usage and unfair player advantages, but that really doesn't have anything to do with Recount.

 

Note: last post from me before the weekend. I'll check back in on this thread Monday morning.

 

Have you considered that people should try the "Put on your big boy/girl pants and deal with it" approach if they run out of space, when in fact that is where they should START? Petition the game company to add more slots if you need them, it's not like they take up a lot of drive space. Blame the provider if they refuse to provide them. Speak with your wallet if necessary. People need to take responsibility for themselves and quit waving their full "boo hoo poor me" diapers at other players or at their providers for that matter.

 

I think true exploits should be punished and some "crystal ball" addons like DBM are indeed way over the top, indeed unwanted and indeed have influenced content design but the information they provided was and IS still available to everyone.

 

Figuring out the best way to do something seems like the smart thing to me and I think most people want to just slot in and have a good time rather than blaze content trails so they end up researching other peoples work which is usually published on the web for that express purpose. In any event the content is intended to be done however it was designed in the first place so the people doing it in what they think of as "the right way" are in no way significantly disadvantaged, they just move through the content a little more slowly.

 

As they CHOSE to do.

 

It is neither my fault nor my responsibility that game companies CHOOSE to make information available and that players take advantage of this.

 

If Blizzard designs content with DBM or any other information source in mind then players need to use DBM or which ever information source is relevant, it's just that simple. If people don't like it they should petition their provider...and speak with their wallet if not satisfied.

 

Some people are satisfied with participation trophies and other people want to win.

 

I am puzzled that the people who just want to show up are troubled by the idea of people who want to win doing better than them and doing it faster. It's not like joe six pack who only plays an hour or two per day doesn't have access to specs, walkthroughs and addons like DBM along with everyone else.

 

Some people don't want to use the information available and yes it sometimes reveals things about content that can be either used legitimately or exploited to someone's advantage, but surely there are enough people who want to do things "the right way" that people of similar mind should be able to form groups, yes?

 

Gear is silly fast to get instances and pvp already in this game. Where is this great disadvantage?

 

It always comes down to personal choice and personal responsibility regardless of other considerations but someone will use information if it is available however the less information there is, the less difficulty there can be with content. The more RNG elements are introduced into content, the less control the player has over the outcome. Less data=more random.

 

There is a lot of back and forth but what it really comes down to is:

 

How challenging do you want your content to be and how in control of the outcome do you want to be?

Edited March 2, 2012 by GOYAFIDO

[livnthedream]

I didn't say team based play was going away.

 

The activity currently known as "raiding" is on the way out the door though. Look how difficult it is already to get even 8, 10, 15, 16 or 25 players together at the same time.

 

for you maybe. i havent had this issue for going on 8 years now. but then my core has been around for that long, and i have enough social competency to be able to form and participate in groups without being an impatient child. i dont see raiding going anywhere anytime soon, changing forms perhaps, but not going anywhere.

 

 

Can they be useful? Yes.

 

Are they necessary? No.

 

i disagree completely. especially in terms of educating the playerbase. again, look at the sheer number of "bug" reports coming out of multiple forums when they are mechanics working as intended. playing guesswork with unquantified mechanics does more harm than good.

 

Abstaining from watching boss kill videos, using addons/meters and reading walkthroughs are no where in the same league as "turning your monitor off" - don't be stupid.

 

WoW spoiled the MMO genre with too much information. Now some players feel as if they don't have spreadsheets of data present, they can't even function.

 

i partially agree, but i think you are missing the distinction between accessible information (what we dont have) and easily displayed information. as a for instance buff/debuff tracking is atrocious in its current form. giving us more ways of keeping track of our own buffs especially (hopefully on screen size also) is fairly essential in playing any of the dot based acs even close to optimally. there is a very fine line between that kind of functionality and say dbm. your overt hatred of these kinds of tools is rather misguided in that context.

 

Yes, logs are on the way. These logs, from my understanding, also only show you your performance - not the rest of the group. So the raid leader will still not be able to parse everyone's data. Guild members should be able to upload their logs and a parser be able to assemble them, yes - but it is not as convenient as good ole' Recount.

 

it will be boiled down to that level of convenience. the sheer number of things you can make happen with act alone means it will happen. either way there hasnt been any kind of confirmation either way. the last quote i saw passed around that mentioned "personal" only was rather old.

 

How many players can you put on /ignore and when the future LFG system goes cross-server, will we be able to ignore players on other servers?

 

poor question to ask when we know so little about what they have planned with lfg. the sheer fact that they are entertaining cross server alone is an abomination, but thats another debate entirely. the number of problems you can lie at cross server functionality are tied to behavior, behavior that you are attempting to place on "recount spam" which is more of a symptom than a cause.

 

Please demonstrate then.

 

I can demonstrate a link between addon usage and content design change.

 

I can also demonstrate links between addon usage and unfair player advantages, but that really doesn't have anything to do with Recount.

 

you are correct, you can link content development changing based on specific mods (especially dbm) however those were also changes put in place well before we got things like multiple difficulty settings, different raid sizes, etc. by your reasoning lfr should be something besides the faceroll joke that it is. i mean its even easier than "normal" mode here. personally i feel your fear is misplaced. you want yout "casual" easymode, so be it, just dont wish it on all of us. more information in general leads to a smarter playerbase, a smarter playerbase does not lead to tougher encounters. if it did wows t11 and t13 would have been much better.

[Deevaun]

The great debate. I support damage meters. I support kicking people that suck. I still kick people that suck without them. If you do not take any interest in gearing out your character and take no interest in figuring out the best way to play your character you get the boot. I am not here to play with handicapped players lazy players, or players who just do not care. I want a for sure way to save time and damage meters will save me that time. I have already come up with ways to figure this out. Luckily with the replayability of this game I am learning the other classes and I will know the animations of what you are casting in what order. I will be able to talk with you and if you can't talk shop then I will know that you take no interest in progression. It is sad that I have to go to these extreme steps to figure this out. The only saving grace for this sort of game is the replayability, the enjoyment I find in the story. Without the great experience of leveling up this setup would flop.

[TheSkate]

"Blah blah blah, yackity smackity, and a nice cold glass of orange juice"

Hugh Tasmanian Devil

Edited March 3, 2012 by TheSkate

[TheSkate]

The great debate. I support damage meters. I support kicking people that suck. I still kick people that suck without them. If you do not take any interest in gearing out your character and take no interest in figuring out the best way to play your character you get the boot. I am not here to play with handicapped players lazy players, or players who just do not care. I want a for sure way to save time and damage meters will save me that time. I have already come up with ways to figure this out. Luckily with the replayability of this game I am learning the other classes and I will know the animations of what you are casting in what order. I will be able to talk with you and if you can't talk shop then I will know that you take no interest in progression. It is sad that I have to go to these extreme steps to figure this out. The only saving grace for this sort of game is the replayability, the enjoyment I find in the story. Without the great experience of leveling up this setup would flop.

 

Dear God. So you enjoy playing the game, as a game? What the hell for? You can't min/max. How is it even remotely enjoyable without the ability to maximize your DPS to its fullest potential?

 

There are certain people in this thread that cannot be honest with themselves and actually say they want to use recount to kick people from their groups if they think they suck, what ever the reason. At least you are honest with yourself and us. I can respect that.

 

That being said I still disagree with the opinion that recount style meters are needed or even wanted by the majority of players. We will have a combat log that can be parsed with a third party program soon (supposed to be in patch 1.2) and that is really enough.

 

If raids are so important to you that people have to be willing to give their maximum effort at all times, then maybe you should join a raiding guild and run raids only with them. It is what I do, and I see no reason to have recount myself in THIS game.

[JeffleighB]

I think damage meters are the worst thing ever invented (having seen them used for years in wow and rift)

 

Let's change the emphasis on playing a game for fun and respecting others instead of judging them by some figure produced by a parser (which can often not be a good indication of who really was playing well)

 

I think if people want to have a game where raids are managed by damage meters - well go to a different game where this is the case

[Raeln]

for you maybe. i havent had this issue for going on 8 years now. but then my core has been around for that long, and i have enough social competency to be able to form and participate in groups without being an impatient child. i dont see raiding going anywhere anytime soon, changing forms perhaps, but not going anywhere.

 

Resorting to making the implication that those with a different viewpoint than you have are "childish", eh?

 

i disagree completely. especially in terms of educating the playerbase. again, look at the sheer number of "bug" reports coming out of multiple forums when they are mechanics working as intended. playing guesswork with unquantified mechanics does more harm than good.

 

Heh, the gunnery commando stacking issue is a bug that is easy to see. Scrutinizing over a class doing 1 or 2% more dps after running a hundred combat log parses is a different matter altogether. This was the type of stuff that was complained about on that other game's forum thanks to meters.

 

I don't really want combat efficiency scrutinized at the spreadsheet level by players - that should remain the developer's job.

 

i partially agree, but i think you are missing the distinction between accessible information (what we dont have) and easily displayed information. as a for instance buff/debuff tracking is atrocious in its current form. giving us more ways of keeping track of our own buffs especially (hopefully on screen size also) is fairly essential in playing any of the dot based acs even close to optimally. there is a very fine line between that kind of functionality and say dbm. your overt hatred of these kinds of tools is rather misguided in that context.

 

I've already said that some UI elements need some major work - buff/debuff timers included.

 

We don't need an addon to warn us to move out of the fire.

 

it will be boiled down to that level of convenience. the sheer number of things you can make happen with act alone means it will happen. either way there hasnt been any kind of confirmation either way. the last quote i saw passed around that mentioned "personal" only was rather old.

 

Not that old, though - I guess we'll find out for sure this week.

 

poor question to ask when we know so little about what they have planned with lfg. the sheer fact that they are entertaining cross server alone is an abomination, but thats another debate entirely. the number of problems you can lie at cross server functionality are tied to behavior, behavior that you are attempting to place on "recount spam" which is more of a symptom than a cause.

 

Handing a tool like Recount (in the form that WoW has - IE: unrestricted) to a MMO playerbase with Internet anonymity seems too much like handing a terrorist cell a crate of explosives. You know someone is going to get blown up, it's just a matter of when and where.

 

you are correct, you can link content development changing based on specific mods (especially dbm) however those were also changes put in place well before we got things like multiple difficulty settings, different raid sizes, etc. by your reasoning lfr should be something besides the faceroll joke that it is. i mean its even easier than "normal" mode here. personally i feel your fear is misplaced. you want yout "casual" easymode, so be it, just dont wish it on all of us. more information in general leads to a smarter playerbase, a smarter playerbase does not lead to tougher encounters. if it did wows t11 and t13 would have been much better.

 

It is very interesting that you try to say anything "is forced on you" when there is that toggle switch to make it more difficult.

 

This really is starting to feel like all those, "the content is too easy" threads on the WoW forums that seemed to be spearheaded by posters that had absolutely zero hardmode achievements.