Mister_Woot Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 The introduction of "spreadsheet" mods that reduce gameplay to pure number crunching are solely to blame for the dissolution of the formerly tight communities found in every MMO I have ever played. Yes recount style mods, I mean you. They have also reduced Boss encounters to nothing more than choreographed "hey stupid, MOVE YER ARSE!" style dances that have destroyed any and all camaraderie amongst all but the minority of players. Even within that very minority they are devisive, mostly innacurate, and discourage cohesion. To put it bluntly, for these reasons alone ( and this is just a quick comment at almost 1am) ... use recount? "I'd rather drink my own sick" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrakonBazzaak Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I support an ingame version of combat log!!!!! >.< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wikimon Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Yes recount style mods, I mean you. They have also reduced Boss encounters to nothing more than choreographed "hey stupid, MOVE YER ARSE!" style dances that have destroyed any and all camaraderie amongst all but the minority of players. Even within that very minority they are devisive, mostly innacurate, and discourage cohesion. another biased opinion. recount is not to blame for anything you mentioned. knowing your DPS/heal throughput doesn't make boss fights any easier other than being able to pinpoint where your problem area is that is causing you to fail. it's the difference from knowing your car is broken, from a mechanic telling you that you have a leak in the fuel air gasket intake manifold... cam shaft... not a car guy... and breaking up the community? your community was so fragile that it couldn't handle a minor section of elitist jerks complaining? whole guilds of people playing together happily torn asunder the second someone runs a meter and sees someone else doing 5% worse than someone else? yes those things never happened. you're making up stories to justify your own bias. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sai-to Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) i don't see this happening. i have never been removed from a group before it even began and i ran some of the craziest far out specs. i was a melee survival hunter. i was an enhancement (that's the melee tree) shaman HEALER. i had a holy DPS priest. i quit WoW cause cataclysm forced me out of playing the weird underdog specs, but i never once got kicked from a group This is a fallacy. I've never been struck by lightning, but I've been near plenty of trees in thunderstorms. I've never been hit by a car, but I've crossed plenty of busy streets. I've never broken a bone, but I've done a lot of activities where I could have. Just because you haven't experienced something, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. That being said, I have no issues with a Parser. BUT, a parser is where the line should be drawn. No threat meters, no DPS meters, no real-time bars of any kind. They trivialize the content of the game. Edited January 20, 2012 by Sai-to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wikimon Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) This is a fallacy. I've never been struck by lightning, but I've been near plenty of trees in thunderstorms. I've never been hit by a car, but I've crossed plenty of busy streets. I've never broken a bone, but I've done a lot of activities where I could have. as much of a fallacy as saying "we picked up some guy to fill in one day and he ran a meter and my whole guild fell apart when they saw numbers" and saying i've never been struck by lightning is not the same as saying, i've never seen compelling evidence that showed lightning exists. don't bring that noise Edited January 20, 2012 by wikimon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sai-to Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 as much of a fallacy as saying "we picked up some guy to fill in one day and he ran a meter and my whole guild fell apart when they saw numbers" No, that's not a fallacy. That's a claim of something that happened. Whether it's true or not is not proven, but there is nothing intrinsically false about it. Saying, "Something has never happened to me, so it doesn't happen", however, is an intrinsically false statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sycharis Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) It's a bad idea. Very bad idea. Players in WOW now are nothing but a number. I've been there .. it was boring. Having other players able to scrutinise your gear score , rotation and talent build = play the current 'hot forum way' or don’t play. Where’s the room for being a character in a game, playing your way, using the attacks you like, with the talent build you like, wearing the gear you like. Before some rabid fan boy man child suggest I mean player in grey gear turning up and doing F**k all, I don't mean that and you know it. I'm talking about not having someone else who supposedly 'plays a character in the game' ask you why you have 1 point out of place in your talent build, because every other tank has it... f**k that, that’s why I left games like wow I'm not a f**king number, and I don't play to a monthly changing cookie cutter template. Man, I ain't a part of your system. This ain't my spec, this a cookie cutter! I threw it on the ground. but seriously, if you're going to be a giant special and big snowflake about everything (and if you really like one attack so much that all you do is hit it because you really like it we've got a wonderful job on an assembly line for you, sir, pressing a big red button!), nothing people say is going to matter, nothing you say is going to matter. You can re-mod gear with armoring, mods, enhancements, etc. So if you want to wear your pretty pink lightning hat, sure, throw some better armoring and mods in it and go. You're already going to look like a toolbag extraordinaire, combat logs won't change that. If you think people don't already check people's gear and crap, you are so misguided you need like, a guide dog. Edited January 20, 2012 by Sycharis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowswillm Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I have already been kicked from 5 HM BT groups because "I didn't pull enough dps" even though there are damage meters in the game. I was also accused of not casting enough when I was as much as possible(mind you I didn't drop below 400 force due to many, many procs). I am all for giving the game a combat log and mods OR the option to NOT remove some one from a group when you are at the last boss of the instance. Every time I have been removed it was because I needed the alloy and the group leader did as well and kicked me. At least have a votekick option in the game where it has to be 2 or 3 players to vote the forth out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wikimon Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) Saying, "Something has never happened to me, so it doesn't happen", however, is an intrinsically false statement. it may not be intrinsically false, but it's exceptionally absurd as an argument based on its premise and supporting evidence and more importantly, your analogy does not represent what i said which was "i've never seen what you describe, nor have i ever witnessed anything other than specious accounts from untrustworthy agenda pushing individuals. it's certainly not commonplace enough to warrant the position you're taking" Edited January 20, 2012 by wikimon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sai-to Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 it may not be intrinsically false, but it's exceptionally absurd as an argument based on its premise and supporting evidence That doesn't matter. You can't attempt to counter his statement with a fallacy, which is what you did. and more importantly, your analogy does not represent what i said which was "i've never seen what you describe, nor have i ever witnessed anything other than specious accounts from untrustworthy agenda pushing individuals. it's certainly not commonplace enough to warrant the position you're taking" Actually, it does. Your quote, taking out the irrelevant speculation, says, "I have never witnessed what you described, so I don't believe it happens". Which is a logical fallacy. Regardless, he isn't the only one that has testified to the negative impact on community that certain addons can have. And I mostly just wanted to point out that you can't counter an assertion with a logical fallacy. I personally think Parsers are perfectly fine and don't have enough of a negative impact on the community to warrant their restriction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mamono Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Yes and no. Yes: I would like to have a recount that is working for my character so I can test out different specs and learn my rotations better. No: I dont want to have recounts that works on other people. It only brings the elitist wannabees out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twogirlsoneup Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 This game may have found its raison d'etre, as a haven for bads. Give everyone light-sabers and pixelated girlfriends, tell them they are a hero, and keep out the combat log. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister_Woot Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 another biased opinion. recount is not to blame for anything you mentioned. knowing your DPS/heal throughput doesn't make boss fights any easier other than being able to pinpoint where your problem area is that is causing you to fail. it's the difference from knowing your car is broken, from a mechanic telling you that you have a leak in the fuel air gasket intake manifold... cam shaft... not a car guy... and breaking up the community? your community was so fragile that it couldn't handle a minor section of elitist jerks complaining? whole guilds of people playing together happily torn asunder the second someone runs a meter and sees someone else doing 5% worse than someone else? yes those things never happened. you're making up stories to justify your own bias. Now here's a problem, you assume I am speaking of what has happened to me personally. I'm not. I'm talking about those very same elitist children , the ones who use terms like "bads" ignoring things like tactics, just so they can be at the top of DPS or HPS meters. So maybe due to it being 1am when I posted that I missed out the linking point I was trying to make that it is only 1 or 2 steps from recount to deadly boss mods et al. Shoot me, the coffee had worn off , but the point is still sound. A guild or raid team has to be just that, a team. Having some child scream at another team member because they are 2.3% lower on some meter is hardly a good thing for long term cohesion. You can't even make it a guild rule that meters are banned because there's always going to be some idiot who ignores you and posts one. Number crunch mods that reduce players to an arbitrary score just so the "31337" can beat those they consider beneath them in the head with it are inherently wrong. Sure, bring in a combat log, give a display of personal dps or hps. Just if you have to do this (which I consider a classic generation 2 MMO mistake) just make it part of the UI and for God's sake don't make it linkable! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wikimon Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 "I have never witnessed what you described, so I don't believe it happens" again, not what i said. your analogy is incorrect. keep trying if you like Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wikimon Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Now here's a problem, you assume I am speaking of what has happened to me personally. I'm not. I'm talking about those very same elitist children , the ones who use terms like "bads" ignoring things like tactics, just so they can be at the top of DPS or HPS meters. So maybe due to it being 1am when I posted that I missed out the linking point I was trying to make that it is only 1 or 2 steps from recount to deadly boss mods et al. Shoot me, the coffee had worn off , but the point is still sound. <facepalm> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSkate Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 another biased opinion. recount is not to blame for anything you mentioned. knowing your DPS/heal throughput doesn't make boss fights any easier other than being able to pinpoint where your problem area is that is causing you to fail. it's the difference from knowing your car is broken, from a mechanic telling you that you have a leak in the fuel air gasket intake manifold... cam shaft... not a car guy... and breaking up the community? your community was so fragile that it couldn't handle a minor section of elitist jerks complaining? whole guilds of people playing together happily torn asunder the second someone runs a meter and sees someone else doing 5% worse than someone else? yes those things never happened. you're making up stories to justify your own bias. As if your opinions on this subject are not completely biased as well. Your "car without head lights" and "car without a speedometer" comparisons have nothing to do with a purely optional, NOT NEEDED (only wanted) accessory. It would be more comparable to the cigarette lighter in your car. Only difference is that a large percent of the people that want the lighter want it to burn their passengers arm with it after they "improve themselves". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSkate Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 again, not what i said. your analogy is incorrect. keep trying if you like Oh God. I'm gonna hate myself for saying this. but I have to back Wikimon on this. What he is actually saying is more like "I've never seen this, only heard about it from unreliable sources (in his opinion) so I believe that if it does happen it is so rare as to be a non-factor." I think I just threw up in my mouth... Gack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adoan Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Hey, The community is asking for mods. DPS, Healing, Threat, Bar Mods, ECT. If you don't want to use MODS you DON'T have to use them. People will know if you are bad or not without the help of a mod. In your video Bioware you said that you are listening to the community. From what I've seen there is a ton of people on these forums asking & pleading for mods/macros. When you are fixing the UI in the upcoming patches please add the ability to use mods. For the people who are against Mods/Macro's "YOU DO NOT HAVE TO USE THEM". Do not try and censor a game that everyone pays a monthly fee to play. If you don't support mods/macro's then it won't affect you either way if they implement them. Guilds/Groups will know if your not pulling your weight without having to use mods. So don't try and make those excuses. A HUGE population of players are demanding for the support of mods! We are paying the monthly fee just like everyone else! If you support mods/macros please get all your friends/guilds and start posting on this thread. Bioware stated "It listens to the community" so community start posting over and over till we get what we want/deserve. Wurth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wikimon Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) Your "car without head lights" and "car without a speedometer" comparisons have nothing to do with a purely optional, NOT NEEDED (only wanted) accessory.. it's optional if you want to drive casually. not optional if you want to drive professionally. we all CAN drive around on streets in Go-Karts. they would technically get us where we're going... Edited January 20, 2012 by wikimon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elemenope Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 No I do not. I like the idea of just grouping with people and winning or losing. I hate how with wow its was always "omg bob is not doing X dps so he sucks!". Play with people because you enjoy playing with them. Not because of a number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wikimon Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 No I do not. I like the idea of just grouping with people and winning or losing. I hate how with wow its was always "omg bob is not doing X dps so he sucks!". Play with people because you enjoy playing with them. Not because of a number. i enjoy playing with people who understand the game enough to know that putting out the proper numbers makes it possible to complete content with less risk of failure failure makes me enjoy the game less Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akkalevil Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 It's a bad idea. Very bad idea. Players in WOW now are nothing but a number. I've been there .. it was boring. Having other players able to scrutinise your gear score , rotation and talent build = play the current 'hot forum way' or don’t play. The problem with your reasoning is that people didn't become "just a number" in WoW until mid-LK, while Recount has been existing in one form or another since mid-Vanilla. As I said earlier, it's not Recount which destroyed WoW, it's the facerolling difficulty since 3.0 and the LFG tool. What you describe is how the game has become since Wrath, three full years after Damage Meters started to be used in the game. Hard to link both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LOLOMGSW Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 No to Recount...and while I'm at it, no to GS. Reason? See WoW. To put it another way, this isn't WoW and we certainly don't need any of the addons that many feel ruined WoW in the end. To do otherwise is just stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regel Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I think we need a recount, i'm almost at 50 whit 1 pg and when i raise that level i have to try the different talent tree and rotation of my pg. How i know what is the better if i don't know how much damage i do? If some 1 don't wanna Recount or some DPS meter is easy, don't get that no 1 bring a gun at your head Yelling DOWNLOAD RECOUNT, but if i wanna improve my self i think is legit i have the possibility to have some Number to compare. Sorry for bad english, i'm italian hope u can undestreand what i'm saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wikimon Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 No to Recount...and while I'm at it, no to GS. Reason? See WoW. To put it another way, this isn't WoW and we certainly don't need any of the addons that many feel ruined WoW in the end. To do otherwise is just stupid. way to make a post that is already completely invalidated by the post RIGHT BEFORE YOURS. <rolls eyes> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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