Coinkee Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Yes which means the 50 bracket is two classes of people. Farm animals, and Farmers. Fun times eh? The 50 bracket is not a solution. And sure PvE players can PvP in OPvP, long as they bring 3 times the amount of people they might run into that are in PvP gear so they can counter Expertise with pure Zerg Power. Thats not healthy PvP, which is the argument I'm making. You're not thinking long term. PVE is gained at a faster rate (tierwise) than PVP gear is put out. Eventually the top geared pve dpsers will be hitting for more HP than a pvper has in equal gear with no mitigating factors. Well geared PVE tanks will have more HP than you can dps down etc etc Is that what you want instead of fresh 50s getting killed WHILE they are still earning their pvp gear? No matter what fresh 50s will die. Regardless of Expertise, that's simply a gear issue, regardless of pvp or pve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coinkee Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 You also need a starting point, otherwise you just get chewed up all day without much of a way to fight back. They had a level 50 blue set that you could purchase with warzone commendations. I don't see anything wrong with someone who saved up commendations before 50 to get a set that has whatever starting amount of expertise on it. But they removed it for some very dumb reason, and even if they did have that in the amount of health and other stats you get with battlemaster are a bit over the top since expertise also punishes lower geared players rather than solely protecting higher geared players. Most people don't enjoy being a punching bag just because, give them something to start with or I can assure you sides without a good number of battlemasters won't stay with a system like this and for good reason. They definately need a starter pvp set. On this i think everyone is in agreement with (except the ppl arguing to abolish Expertise altogether) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razot Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) Tbh anyone who really wants PVP to be competitive or have a meaningful open world PVP gets the fact that expertise is step in the wrong direction. Its a total waste of time trying to explain it because most are blatantly too stupid to grasp otherwise.. Edited January 16, 2012 by Razot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TehMerc Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 They definately need a starter pvp set. On this i think everyone is in agreement with (except the ppl arguing to abolish Expertise altogether) I think expertise needs to be reworked myself, but baby steps eh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdyornot Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 You also need a starting point, otherwise you just get chewed up all day without much of a way to fight back. They had a level 50 blue set that you could purchase with warzone commendations. I don't see anything wrong with someone who saved up commendations before 50 to get a set that has whatever starting amount of expertise on it. But they removed it for some very dumb reason, and even if they did have that in the amount of health and other stats you get with battlemaster are a bit over the top since expertise also punishes lower geared players rather than solely protecting higher geared players. Most people don't enjoy being a punching bag just because, give them something to start with or I can assure you sides without a good number of battlemasters won't stay with a system like this and for good reason. I'm all for bringing back the blue pvp gear as long as you pvp for it. But i dont see the problem with the very last pvp set having good stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashes_Arizona Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) Removing expertise wont happen anytime soon. By crafting pvp gear, where would you get the materials for such craft if you dont want to pvp for it ? It just sounds like you want an easy and risk-free way of getting gear for pvp now through pve. And thats the point, you should do PvP for PvP gear. Dude I'm Valor rank 20 on a character that's only completed Dromund Kaas and Balmorra in Act I in the PvE side of the game. I had full PvP awarded level 20 gear by level 18 and had to wait two levels to use it. I do PvP, extensively. Its part of my daily play every day when I play I'm queued for PvP constantly. I only drop out of the queue when I feel like I'm starting to heavily out level my PvE story content. I don't want "easy" ways to get PvP anything, I want Expertise gone so bads can't hide behind it in warzones and OPvP and act like their good when they're not. If you want to be good at PvP you should be GOOD AT IT. Full expertise gear doesn't mean you're good at PvP, at all. My level 50 is a Juggernaut and I've got some Expertise gear on him and let me tell you something, Juggernaut Immortals SUCK at PvP, because shield and defense rating currently do not mitigate Power based damage sources in any way, but not with Expertise, with Expertise my completely sucky not PvP spec'd Juggernaut can actually roll in a Warzone and long as its not someone else in Champ/BM gear, I do just fine on it and the spec SUCKS for PvP. Why do you think I'm running an alt BHPT AP? Do you think its cause I threw a dart at the wall and chose my class and AC by random draw? No I picked a class I felt would fit my play style that would excel and dominate in fast paced skilled PvP and BHPT AP does just that. Once I gear that alt with full Champ/BM gear people will be screaming nerf in regards to it harder than their screaming for IA nerfs right now. If I wanted it "easy" in PvP I wouldn't be rolling an alt at all, I'd just keep plodding along on my level 50 Juggernaut, get full BM gear and be completely invulnerable and tell people how "bad" they were cause they can't kill me. Edited January 16, 2012 by Ashes_Arizona Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdyornot Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Expertise doubles the grind time. You have to grind for PvP gear, and do a separate grind for PvE gear. If I do the grind for 1, why can't I play both? I've done the grind, I know my class, but you say I don't deserve to play the other half of the game until I've done my grind there, as well. How are you going to balance the rate that pve players get pvp gear and vice versa ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdyornot Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Dude I'm Valor rank 20 on a character that's only completed Dromund Kaas and Balmorra in Act I in the PvE side of the game. I had full PvP awarded level 20 gear by level 18 and had to wait two levels to use it. I do PvP, extensively. Its part of my daily play every day when I play I'm queued for PvP constantly. I only drop out of the queue when I feel like I'm starting to heavily out level my PvE story content. I don't want "easy" ways to get PvP anything, I want Expertise gone so bads can't hide behind it in warzones and OPvP and act like their good when they're not. If you want to be good at PvP you should be GOOD AT IT. Full expertise gear doesn't mean you're good at PvP, at all. My level 50 is a Juggernaut and I've got some Expertise gear on him and let me tell you something, Juggernaut Immortals SUCK at PvP, because shield and defense rating current doesn't mitigate Power based damage sources in any way, but not with Expertise, with Expertise my completely sucky not PvP spec'd Juggernaut can actually roll in a Warzone and long as its not someone else in Champ/BM gear, I do just fine on it and the spec SUCKS for PvP. Why do you think I'm running an alt BHPT AP? Do you think its cause I threw a dart at the wall and chose my class and AC by random draw? No I picked a class I felt would fit my play style that would excel and dominate in fast paced skilled PvP and BHPT AP does just that. Once I gear that alt with full Champ/BM gear people will be screaming nerf in regards to it harder than their screaming for IA nerfs right now. If I wanted it "easy" in PvP I wouldn't be rolling an alt at all, I'd just keep plodding along on my level 50 Juggernaut, get full BM gear and be completely invulnerable and tell people how "bad" they were cause they can't kill me. So its a class and defence/shield issue instead of expertise now ? The truth is out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coinkee Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Dude I'm Valor rank 20 on a character that's only completed Dromund Kaas and Balmorra in Act I in the PvE side of the game. I had full PvP awarded level 20 gear by level 18 and had to wait two levels to use it. I do PvP, extensively. Its part of my daily play every day when I play I'm queued for PvP constantly. I only drop out of the queue when I feel like I'm starting to heavily out level my PvE story content. I don't want "easy" ways to get PvP anything, I want Expertise gone so bads can't hide behind it in warzones and OPvP and act like their good when they're not. If you want to be good at PvP you should be GOOD AT IT. Full expertise gear doesn't mean you're good at PvP, at all. My level 50 is a Juggernaut and I've got some Expertise gear on him and let me tell you something, Juggernaut Immortals SUCK at PvP, because shield and defense rating currently do not mitigate Power based damage sources in any way, but not with Expertise, with Expertise my completely sucky not PvP spec'd Juggernaut can actually roll in a Warzone and long as its not someone else in Champ/BM gear, I do just fine on it and the spec SUCKS for PvP. Why do you think I'm running an alt BHPT AP? Do you think its cause I threw a dart at the wall and chose my class and AC by random draw? No I picked a class I felt would fit my play style that would excel and dominate in fast paced skilled PvP and BHPT AP does just that. Once I gear that alt with full Champ/BM gear people will be screaming nerf in regards to it harder than their screaming for IA nerfs right now. If I wanted it "easy" in PvP I wouldn't be rolling an alt at all, I'd just keep plodding along on my level 50 Juggernaut, get full BM gear and be completely invulnerable and tell people how "bad" they were cause they can't kill me. Make friends with a healer. Friends of mine just hit 50 a few days ago.. 50 Jugg / 50 Sorc healy NO pvp gear. They are neigh unkillable unless you bring 4-5 people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SandTrout Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 You're not thinking long term. PVE is gained at a faster rate (tierwise) than PVP gear is put out. Eventually the top geared pve dpsers will be hitting for more HP than a pvper has in equal gear with no mitigating factors. Well geared PVE tanks will have more HP than you can dps down etc etc Is that what you want instead of fresh 50s getting killed WHILE they are still earning their pvp gear? No matter what fresh 50s will die. Regardless of Expertise, that's simply a gear issue, regardless of pvp or pve. I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashes_Arizona Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 So its a class and defence/shield issue instead of expertise now ? The truth is out there. Dude you can't even read. I'm not sure why I'm trying to even discuss this with you. Juggernaut Immortals SUCK at PvP, there is either an oversight or a bug which causes shield rating and defense rating to not be calculated at all in regards to anything but a melee (saber attack), or ranged attack (blaster shot). Everything else that everyone does, IA knives, BH rockets, Trooper Gravrounds, SI Lightning, JC Force Wave...anything that isn't a saber swing or a simple shot from a blaster weapon is completely ignored by shield and defense rating. This has been proven by people that are even more on the ball about TOR PvP than me or you. But on my Juggernaut Immortal, which is totally PvE spec'd with PvP gear on, I can dominate people that are PvP spec'd that are not in PvP gear. If the bolded part of the post doesn't sink in for you, then you're incapable of even understanding what you're reading and should probably go back to rage quitting Huttball when some level 10 doesn't have time to pass the ball before they die when 8 people are attacking them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coinkee Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I agree. You agree. Yet you're pigheaded and want Expertise gone when thats the only mitigating factor that BALANCES the 2 out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SandTrout Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 How are you going to balance the rate that pve players get pvp gear and vice versa ?I'm a fan of No Gear in PvP, honestly. However, if there is such a great instance on having gear in PvP, then let the PvPers get their gear faster than PvE. A PvP guild shifting over to PvE to run HM flashpoints doesn't interfere with the activities of any PvE players. Get that point? It does not interfere. Lets have a 3rd time. No PvEers were harmed in the production of this Raid. It doesn't need to be balanced because balanced only matter if they are competing against one another for something, and there is no competition for FPs because they're all instanced, meaning that the supply of FPs is a non-scarce resource. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coinkee Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) But on my Juggernaut Immortal, which is totally PvE spec'd with PvP gear on, I can dominate people that are PvP spec'd that are not in PvP gear. And that is a problem.. Why? That just means people of equal skill will balance out when the pvp specced people get their gear. and you'll get your pve specced *** handed to you once they are equally geared. What's the issue? Edited January 16, 2012 by Coinkee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razot Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Dude you can't even read. I'm not sure why I'm trying to even discuss this with you. Juggernaut Immortals SUCK at PvP, there is either an oversight or a bug which causes shield rating and defense rating to not be calculated at all in regards to anything but a melee (saber attack), or ranged attack (blaster shot). Everything else that everyone does, IA knives, BH rockets, Trooper Gravrounds, SI Lightning, JC Force Wave...anything that isn't a saber swing or a simple shot from a blaster weapon is completely ignored by shield and defense rating. This has been proven by people that are even more on the ball about TOR PvP than me or you. But on my Juggernaut Immortal, which is totally PvE spec'd with PvP gear on, I can dominate people that are PvP spec'd that are not in PvP gear. If the bolded part of the post doesn't sink in for you, then you're incapable of even understanding what you're reading and should probably go back to rage quitting Huttball when some level 10 doesn't have time to pass the ball before they die when 8 people are attacking them. Most likely scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SandTrout Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 You agree. Yet you're pigheaded and want Expertise gone when thats the only mitigating factor that BALANCES the 2 out. Actually, If PvP can get the same gear that PvE gets, that would also balance them out. If gear didn't count in PvP, that would also balance them out in the place where balance matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adzzy Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) lvl 51 epic pve gear can be gotten pretty easily on ilum using mods etc, a more equitable system would then see centurion gear gatherable fairly easily (wz commendations work), change champion bags to champion tokens + gear and then naturally bm bags are bm + bm tokens. it would see fresh 50's in reasonable pvp gear fairly quickly and painlessly with a comparable effort to what you can do via pve, then while the expertise gap would exist, it wouldnt be completely insurmountable for much longer than a week or two for the new 50. Edited January 16, 2012 by Adzzy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coinkee Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I'm a fan of No Gear in PvP, honestly. However, if there is such a great instance on having gear in PvP, then let the PvPers get their gear faster than PvE. A PvP guild shifting over to PvE to run HM flashpoints doesn't interfere with the activities of any PvE players. Get that point? It does not interfere. . It does interfere because you want to keep pvpers in the same gear for as long as you can. that's when the skillcheck comes into play. Once everyone is equally geared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SandTrout Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 And that is a problem.. Why? That just means people of equal skill will balance out when the pvp specced people get their gear. and you'll get your pve specced *** ahnded to you once they are equally geared. What's the issue? The issue is that gear intrinsically introduces imbalance in an event that is meant to be a means for players to test their skills against one another in a reasonably fair manner. To be perfectly honest, allowing gear in PvP at all is like giving the Cowboys 8 points on every touch-down and the Texans only 6 because the Cowboys are an older franchise, and therefor deserve to win more than the new team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SandTrout Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 It does interfere because you want to keep pvpers in the same gear for as long as you can. that's when the skillcheck comes into play. Once everyone is equally geared. Then remove gear from players when they enter a WZ. You keep everyone in the same gear for the longest time possible that way: Forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coinkee Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 The issue is that gear intrinsically introduces imbalance in an event that is meant to be a means for players to test their skills against one another in a reasonably fair manner. To be perfectly honest, allowing gear in PvP at all is like giving the Cowboys 8 points on every touch-down and the Texans only 6 because the Cowboys are an older franchise, and therefor deserve to win more than the new team. the cowboys NEED an 8 pt touchdown cuz they suck that bad =P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razot Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 The issue is that gear intrinsically introduces imbalance in an event that is meant to be a means for players to test their skills against one another in a reasonably fair manner. To be perfectly honest, allowing gear in PvP at all is like giving the Cowboys 8 points on every touch-down and the Texans only 6 because the Cowboys are an older franchise, and therefor deserve to win more than the new team. I prefer the analogy of.. Only the Yankees can use steriods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coinkee Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Then remove gear from players when they enter a WZ. You keep everyone in the same gear for the longest time possible that way: Forever. And you lose their monthly sub because there is no progression for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdyornot Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I'm a fan of No Gear in PvP, honestly. I have some sad news for you then... SWTOR is gear based just like most other MMO's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeybusiness Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 People are raging because of a dmg buff/reduction of maximum 10%? Pvp gear is accessible to everyone and the T2 pvp set is fairly easy to obtain. If you're scared of getting facerolled by someone who has battlemaster/champion, get a buddy to help you. PvP is a TEAM based game, you can win huttball by positioning yourself on the right places. Voidstar = Harass. Alderaan, create a patrol group. I won voidstar against a group 50's with me as a little lvl 38 sorc as highest lvl in my team. Skill still takes a priority. It took blizzard almost 3 years to get resi in the same condition as expertise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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