Ultimate PvP Balance Fix

[Revanmug]

Your argument really only holds up in a PvE scenario. You don't have to grind towards better gear to have an enjoyable PvP experience, as has been exampled here multiple times. You keep using MMOs as a genre as an excuse, but as many people have stated, Guild Wars did not use this system, and had very enjoyable PvP.

 

You have to understand that "mmorpg" have hidden rules to enter that category. GW has never been taken as a real mmorpg. The entire game is instance with only the city/mission area open to everybody. Also, RPG also involve an evolution in your characters. Evolution in power (lvl) then gears. Gw's evolution was very limited.

 

It is quite impossible to have a balance mmorpg for pve and pvp without separating them completly since it doesn't match at all with the idea of a "fair fight". GW was an amazing pvp game. Many type of arena 4 to GvG to faction battle etc. BUT... it was a very terrible pve game. As expansion went out for GW, it became more and more a game of specifique build to farm trash alone for rare looking gear and then sell them for amazing price.

 

PvE is what attract the most people. Not surprising a company focus on that first.

 

That you like it or not, rpg/mmorpg have rules and you can't deny those. You might want to play another type of game for real "pvp". Hell, GW2 will be out soon enough and the pvp will probably be amazing if they do like the first.

[GlowRage]

You have to understand that "mmorpg" have hidden rules to enter that category. GW has never been taken as a real mmorpg. The entire game is instance with only the city/mission area open to everybody. Also, RPG also involve an evolution in your characters. Evolution in power (lvl) then gears. Gw's evolution was very limited.

 

It is quite impossible to have a balance mmorpg for pve and pvp without separating them completly since it doesn't match at all with the idea of a "fair fight". GW was an amazing pvp game. Many type of arena 4 to GvG to faction battle etc. BUT... it was a very terrible pve game. As expansion went out for GW, it became more and more a game of specifique build to farm trash alone for rare looking gear and then sell them for amazing price.

 

PvE is what attract the most people. Not surprising a company focus on that first.

 

That you like it or not, rpg/mmorpg have rules and you can't deny those. You might want to play another type of game for real "pvp". Hell, GW2 will be out soon enough and the pvp will probably be amazing if they do like the first.

 

I'm not really sure what you're getting at. You're saying that Guild Wars had bad PvE because you had to make a specific build to farm trash. I never played the game but it sounds like endgame PvE either didn't exist or was very limited. That is just poor design, and will of course be no fun.

 

Development for PvE and PvP is handled by two separate teams. You don't have to sacrifice one to focus on the other. Literally all that would have to be done to make PvP more balanced is to cause stats on gear to not give any benefit to your character while in a Warzone or designated PvP area such as the battle for Ilum.

[wixxkruppel]

Removing gear from PvP is not required, bw just needs to remove expertise.

 

PvP @50 without expertise - do zero dmg to champ geared people, and die to a mean look

 

PvP @50 with 200-300 expertise - facemelt anyone who doesn't have pvp gear, no questions asked

 

PvP @50 with 400+ valor - 1vs4+ if they don't have pvp gear

 

... about sums it up. I really feel sorry for the people who hit 50 after L50 bracket comes online.

Edited January 15, 2012 by wixxkruppel

[Nektulos]

Removing gear from PvP is not required, bw just needs to remove expertise.

 

PvP @50 without expertise - do zero dmg to champ geared people, and die to a mean look

 

PvP @50 with 200-300 expertise - facemelt anyone who doesn't have pvp gear, no questions asked

 

PvP @50 with 400+ valor - 1vs4+ if they don't have pvp gear

 

... about sums it up. I really feel sorry for the people who hit 50 after L50 bracket comes online.

 

Not true @ all ...

[ltprudii]

Removing gear from PvP is not required, bw just needs to remove expertise.

 

PvP @50 without expertise - do zero dmg to champ geared people, and die to a mean look

 

PvP @50 with 200-300 expertise - facemelt anyone who doesn't have pvp gear, no questions asked

 

PvP @50 with 400+ valor - 1vs4+ if they don't have pvp gear

 

... about sums it up. I really feel sorry for the people who hit 50 after L50 bracket comes online.

 

I dont see this at all either. Ever think they are a tank spec? or just know when to pop damage mitigation when?

 

Expertise reduces damage and increases it too. But by a percentage. Say you crit a 2k stockstrike, which I did in gear i optained through GTN and questing at 50. With say a 10% damage boost (almost fully geared in champion) thats 2.2k. That is HARDLY enough to kill 4 people.

 

And on the damage reduction side. Similar story but reverse. Does 1.8k.

 

 

Not to be rude but you could just have really bad gear on. I spent about 200k on mods to get my gear so my bonus damage was at 200 to over 300 and my main weapon was at 270-410.

[lsarii]

Remove gear from PvP - discuss.

 

MMOs aren't for you bro. Go back to Halo.

[GlowRage]

I dont see this at all either. Ever think they are a tank spec? or just know when to pop damage mitigation when?

 

Expertise reduces damage and increases it too. But by a percentage. Say you crit a 2k stockstrike, which I did in gear i optained through GTN and questing at 50. With say a 10% damage boost (almost fully geared in champion) thats 2.2k. That is HARDLY enough to kill 4 people.

 

And on the damage reduction side. Similar story but reverse. Does 1.8k.

 

 

Not to be rude but you could just have really bad gear on. I spent about 200k on mods to get my gear so my bonus damage was at 200 to over 300 and my main weapon was at 270-410.

 

It's not just the % boost though, the PvP gear has substantially more endurance on it when you take the full set into consideration. The weapons also give a substantial boost to damage from the force/tech power they provide. One piece is not going to change the game but you cannot tell me that a person who has just hit level 50 and a person in full Battlemaster gear, even if evenly skilled, are anywhere close to evenly matched.

[Haristo]

I think however Expertise is an error. but receiving gear as a reward for PvP is totally legitimate.

[GlowRage]

MMOs aren't for you bro. Go back to Halo.

 

MMO != PvP has to be a gear grind. Also, Halo is terrible.

[GlowRage]

I think however Expertise is an error. but receiving gear as a reward for PvP is totally legitimate.

 

I agree, but I think that the gear should be vanity only. People would still grind out PvP matches for gear that made them look incredibly cool even if it didn't provide stats.

 

Look at WoW and the way people farm vanity pets and achievements and titles and mounts. They provide absolutely no competitive edge in either PvE or PvP but people spend thousands of gold and hours farming both.

[Dyvid]

Either beat Expertise to a bloody pulp with the nerf bat or remove it. It only unbalances the game more than it divides pvp from pve gear.

[ltprudii]

It's not just the % boost though, the PvP gear has substantially more endurance on it when you take the full set into consideration. The weapons also give a substantial boost to damage from the force/tech power they provide. One piece is not going to change the game but you cannot tell me that a person who has just hit level 50 and a person in full Battlemaster gear, even if evenly skilled, are anywhere close to evenly matched.

 

Actually i am telling you that because i modded a set of level 40 pvp gear (no exp mind you) with level 50 purple mods i got on Illum from the dailies, which are really simple quests like go blow up this landing pad. Its really not that hard to gear yourself up. You have to work for it. Of course endgame has the bigest gear gaps. But for a reason. So you have something to do.

 

Battle master is tier 3, anyone in pve gear is at tier 0. Of course its better. Id be appalled if i had to grind warzones to 60 valor for say a 5% difference and 3 tiers.

[Vegathegreat]

See this is what I don't get. You've just stated yourself: you're looking forward to a point where you'll have such a large competitive advantage that you'll be able to destroy people who aren't able to compete with you (even if they're more talented than you).

 

Where's the fun in that? I don't know about you, but ****-stomping people who can't even reasonably fight back would get really boring really fast. Fighting against people who could do the same to me would be indescribably frustrating.

 

PvP can only be enjoyable on a long-term basis when the people you're playing with are at or near the same level as you in terms of skill and equipment. That's why games focused on PvP (like GW1, Starcraft, and League of Legends) have ladders and match-making systems to pair you up with people of similar skill levels. Playing against people significantly better than you (or significantly worse) just isn't fun.

 

Well the diffrence is good players know they can beat 99% of the playerbase 1v1 on equal terms, but if all were equal it would be impossible to challenege yourself to take on 2-3-4 people at once alone. gear progression allows you to attempt this, it allows you to become that ultimate hero on the battlefield, the main char of your own story.

[GlowRage]

Actually i am telling you that because i modded a set of level 40 pvp gear (no exp mind you) with level 50 purple mods i got on Illum from the dailies, which are really simple quests like go blow up this landing pad. Its really not that hard to gear yourself up. You have to work for it. Of course endgame has the bigest gear gaps. But for a reason. So you have something to do.

 

Battle master is tier 3, anyone in pve gear is at tier 0. Of course its better. Id be appalled if i had to grind warzones to 60 valor for say a 5% difference and 3 tiers.

 

Obviously a 5% difference across 3 tiers would be terrible, which is why nobody ever suggested a system like that, and to my knowledge, no such system exists in any MMO ever.

 

The whole point of grinding is to get new items that other players do not have. These items do not necessarily have to give you an advantage in PvP. A quick example would be a valor rank 60 player having access to armor that makes you look like Darth Vader. People will want this gear because it looks cool.

 

The only benefit you get from having better stats on gear is the ability to effortlessly win against groups of players who do not have this gear. It doesn't give any sort of edge to competitive PvP because the assumption is that all serious PvPers will have the full set anyway, negating any sort of bonus it provides. It literally adds nothing to the game other than frustration for new players.

[GlowRage]

Well the diffrence is good players know they can beat 99% of the playerbase 1v1 on equal terms, but if all were equal it would be impossible to challenege yourself to take on 2-3-4 people at once alone. gear progression allows you to attempt this, it allows you to become that ultimate hero on the battlefield, the main char of your own story.

 

That argument doesn't make any sense. As a game developer, my goal in designing PvP is not to make people feel like they are "a hero in their own story", it is to provide fair and balanced play for everyone, so that the maximum number of players can find enjoyment in the aspect of the game I am focusing on creating.

 

If you want to be the hero of your own story, just finish your class quest.

[Bahll]

Exactly. There can still be rewards for PvP, but giving out rewards that directly affect the outcome of matches simply ruin the competitive environment.

 

Im sorry, but reading your posts all I can see is "I want gear, but i don't want to put in the time"

 

If im in full battle master, and your in T1 I would hope you get blown up every time we meet, and I would expect you to out dps me in an OP.

 

Taking the gear out of PvP is a terrible idea. What would be the point of even having PvP in the game?

 

That is akin to saying "well OPS gear should only give cosmetic upgrades, that way the content is balanced for people who are just starting out"

[Vegathegreat]

That argument doesn't make any sense. As a game developer, my goal in designing PvP is not to make people feel like they are "a hero in their own story", it is to provide fair and balanced play for everyone, so that the maximum number of players can find enjoyment in the aspect of the game I am focusing on creating.

 

If you want to be the hero of your own story, just finish your class quest.

 

No cuz pvp is balanced once you get the best gear and you fight the other pvper's that have grinded the best gear also. Think of a movie, players want to be the main char, and they want other players to be everything else. And eventually on the battlefield they will run into the main opponent who you guessed it, is also in the best gear.

[mechintel]

It's not just the % boost though, the PvP gear has substantially more endurance on it when you take the full set into consideration. The weapons also give a substantial boost to damage from the force/tech power they provide.

 

PVP gear has less endurance on it than PVE gear of the same ilvl. In fact, I am willing to bet that going into PVP with a full set of PVE gear on instead of a full set of PVP gear (both of the same ilvl) isn't as bad as you might think. The problem isn't that people are in expertise gear fighting people in pve gear. It's that people are in easily obtained expertise gear fighting people in low-level questing greens.

 

Unlike in WoW. Expertise isn't taken from secondary stats, but from primary stats. Chosing to put on pvp gear mean you lose out on your main damage stat as well as a substantial amount of endurance. I am a battlemaster, and while I gain 11% damage reduction in my pvp gear, I also lose about 15% of my health pool in comparison to my pve gear. The weapon damage on a champion lightsaber is exactly the same as the weapon damage on a columi lightsaber. The ONLY difference is that the champion lightsaber has less willpower/strength less endurance and instead has expertise to counter that stat loss.

[Bahll]

It's not just the % boost though, the PvP gear has substantially more endurance on it when you take the full set into consideration. The weapons also give a substantial boost to damage from the force/tech power they provide. One piece is not going to change the game but you cannot tell me that a person who has just hit level 50 and a person in full Battlemaster gear, even if evenly skilled, are anywhere close to evenly matched.

 

Would you expect to tank a raid boss as soon as you hit 50 in quests greens? Same idea here. The full geared player put in the time to get his/her items. They should absolutely 100% have a slight advantage over you because of this.

 

If a player took the time to max a prof, and has an amazing item to aid them, they have earned it.

 

WoW gave so many players a feeling of gear entitlement, that players flip out when gear needs to be farmed. I for one love the grind, and every piece of gear has a story.

 

(insert random quote about the good ole days)

[mechintel]

Anyone who thinks PVP gear is hard to get hasn't done PVE.

[NinjaScroll]

Remove gear from PvP - discuss.

 

If I look back to my FPS experience...

Everybody either had the same weapon or had access to the same weapons in the game.

They did not had anything to boost your stats 'cos... well, you didn't have any stats.

 

Some games had Kevlars and helmets ... some did not

Some games would let you get better weapons thru some sort of "leveling system" ... some would just let you buy them with some money that you'd earn every round by either winning, killing or completing an objective.

 

Weapons would eventually be all the same but would have different sounds/appearances...

You wouldn't have any real "tactical" advantage over your opponents coming from your gear but only from the terrain you'd play on.

 

Grenades, flashbangs and/or smoke grenades are part of every game I played, everybody has them or can get them.

 

But nowhere are players given "a little something" to outperform compared to others.

 

Ok, there's some perks, here and there... to make your life better but these perks doesn't change anything to the game itself

 

Compare all that to any MMORPG and you'll see and probly understand why you guys are failures.

 

Expertise = fail

As much as Resilience = fail

 

Skill > Stats (gear)

[sprasz]

Exactly my point... maybe you would be more comfortable playing an FPS.

 

This..

[SandTrout]

Exactly my point... maybe you would be more comfortable playing an FPS.

 

So what you're saying here, is that actual skill has no place in an MMORPG, only time invested?

[GlowRage]

Would you expect to tank a raid boss as soon as you hit 50 in quests greens? Same idea here. The full geared player put in the time to get his/her items. They should absolutely 100% have a slight advantage over you because of this.

 

If a player took the time to max a prof, and has an amazing item to aid them, they have earned it.

 

WoW gave so many players a feeling of gear entitlement, that players flip out when gear needs to be farmed. I for one love the grind, and every piece of gear has a story.

 

(insert random quote about the good ole days)

 

Comparing tanking a raid boss in greens to PvP is asinine. The only advantage that should be had in PvP is the player's skill and coordination with their teammates.

 

Gear and professions helping in raids is fine, because the game can easily be tuned around those, but then attempting to tune PvP around them as well always results in imbalances. Please name me a single MMORPG with PvP where the majority of players new to it are pleased with the class/gear balance.

 

The complaints people have is not about farming gear, it's about having to farm for that gear while playing against other players who already have it, and starting out at a major disadvantage. You can't compare this to PvE because you have the choice to farm content that is on par with your gear level in order to get better gear. You don't have the option to queue for PvP games against players who don't have Expertise gear.

[priceline]

Gear has always been a part of MMO pvp. If you really want some balanced, "gearless," MMO pvp go play the WoW AT realm (http://www.arena-tournament.com/). Don't really understand why you're suggesting something like this for a game in which pvp is obviously not the top priority.