Fix lightning spec

[Galintor]

As it is lightning as a spec is completely broken, there is little to no mobility and the damage of the 31 point talent is actually less than Deathfield.

 

Lightning strike damage is laughable compared to force lightning spam, and the trade off isn't even worth it, fact is that you're constantly losing dps spamming lightning strike, whis is supposedly the spam DPS ability in this tree.

 

Doing 2 lightning strikes for 1000dmg each every 3s or doing 3 force lightning ticks in 3s for 800+ damage? you do the math.

 

not only is the damage gimp, but the mobility is beyond useless, you're going to be constantly standing still being an open target, if someone attacks you, it's game over. you eat the damage get a KB root try to cast and get silenced.

 

Call this QQ or whatever, but IMO it's pretty stupid that there is only 1 viable DPS spec, and in it you just spam force lightning and deathfield.

 

Nerf Madness a little and fix lightning, a single target dps line should have more frontload burst dps than the dot spec, that's all i'm trying to say.

[Asimp]

Or go Hybrid and stop stop trying to go full tree?

 

Its been talked to death that Full 31 points into a tree is bad vs going hybrid.

 

Lightning/Madness hybrid rules

[Kolbasun]

Or go Hybrid and stop stop trying to go full tree?

 

Its been talked to death that Full 31 points into a tree is bad vs going hybrid.

 

Lightning/Madness hybrid rules

 

Looks like you like attack of clones... Do you think it's good, when you have only one effective spec for both pvp and pve? Many people like variety in class builds. What sense of talent system if you almost don't have build choice? Thats like switch between heal and damage spec now.

I hope, more topics like this - faster remake of lightning tree. For now... many people play sorcs and almost all of them have same build - hybrid.

By the way, 31 point madness spec is playable and not bad. So why lightning 31 point spec is not playable even in pve?

Edited January 15, 2012 by Kolbasun

[Zaxaras]

Looks like you like attack of clones... Do you think it's good, when you have only one effective spec for both pvp and pve? Many people like variety in class builds. What sense of talent system if you almost don't have build choice? Thats like switch between heal and damage spec now.

I hope, more topics like this - faster remake of lightning tree. For now... many people play sorcs and almost all of them have same build - hybrid.

By the way, 31 point madness spec is playable and not bad. So why lightning 31 point spec is not playable even in pve?

 

There will always be 1 "best build" as long as there is more than 1 talent to choose from (e.g. there is an implied 'choice', which isn't really a choice because going with the "second best build" is actually making things worse for the people you play with). Variety only truly occurs between builds for different fights or different purposes for your character in a specific fight. In reality: there is no choice, only what is best.

 

On-topic: I'd like Lightning pure and Madness pure to be buffed a little so they're closer to the overall damage output of the Hybrid build as well, but I'm not fussed as long as at least 1 possible build is capable of doing within 5% of the highest dps any class is capable of.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Zaxaras

[Kolbasun]

There will always be 1 "best build" as long as there is more than 1 talent to choose from...

 

You are right, partially. For example lets take WoW or Rift. All classes have different builds for different play styles, all of them differently effective in pvp and pve. Frost mage in WoW good for pvp, but for pve better arcane, fire is alternative and playable spec for both pvp and pve. Storm in Rift better for AoE and pve, fire better for single target and pvp.

What we see in SWTOR? Hybrid is very effective for - pvp, pve, CC, AoE and single target damage. Pure build is worse for all of this. There is no "specialization", for what you go pure build, hybrid do all this better, but must be average in all.

So i wish to see more effective builds, and chance for pure specs. There must bee good burst damage for "turret style" lightning spec. For now this "burst" is terrible, mobile madness build with instant casts does much better damage. Come on, u must choose between damage and mobility, but hybrid has both.

[spellegren]

Lightning performs well in pve, I'm not sure why you would think otherwise.

 

There are no damage meters, the methods of comparing dps without meters can never be completely accurate.

 

Sorcerer is a well rounded class, off the top of my head I can think of 8 viable specs with different levels of damage and utility and varying degrees of performance depending on the role that the player wants to fill. Complaining that the spec that you prefer is a slight degree of variance worse, in the role that you wish to fill then another spec is one of the most absurd things that I have seen complained about on class forums.

 

Do 31 point talents need to be buffed across the board? Certainly.

 

Is it a game breaking problem? Not even in the slightest.

Edited January 15, 2012 by spellegren

[darthtrunkmonkey]

Or go Hybrid and stop stop trying to go full tree?

 

Its been talked to death that Full 31 points into a tree is bad vs going hybrid.

 

Lightning/Madness hybrid rules

 

stop kicking the dead horse, it doesnt like to be kicked, lolhybrid

[Galintor]

sad forums are sad. the people and the community that play this game clearly don't want the game to live past the half life of the next new MMORPG, like Tera/Blade and Soul, GW2 is the obvious destroyer of MMO's anyways.

 

Oh well, i hope u guys regret this stupidity, when the game is F2P ;p

[Humus_]

To OP: don't spam lightning strikes.

 

It's that simple! Throw in a few lightning strikes to get you lightning storm proc, activate clickies put affliction of the target ->thundering blast -> instacast chain lightning -> insta cast shock, and if needed force lightning for those last few % of hp

 

If yo have a high enough crit + surge rating that combo above should spell trouble for just about anybody. And besides getting the initial lightning storm proc there is only the cast time for thundering blast and maybe force lightning, so your free to move more then half of the time.

 

The lightning tree gives you all kinds of cool ulitily and never going out of force etc. If you want huge dps from insta casts you might wanna take the other tree.

[Koru]

As it is lightning as a spec is completely broken, there is little to no mobility and the damage of the 31 point talent is actually less than Deathfield.

 

Lightning strike damage is laughable compared to force lightning spam, and the trade off isn't even worth it, fact is that you're constantly losing dps spamming lightning strike, whis is supposedly the spam DPS ability in this tree.

 

Doing 2 lightning strikes for 1000dmg each every 3s or doing 3 force lightning ticks in 3s for 800+ damage? you do the math.

 

not only is the damage gimp, but the mobility is beyond useless, you're going to be constantly standing still being an open target, if someone attacks you, it's game over. you eat the damage get a KB root try to cast and get silenced.

 

Call this QQ or whatever, but IMO it's pretty stupid that there is only 1 viable DPS spec, and in it you just spam force lightning and deathfield.

 

Nerf Madness a little and fix lightning, a single target dps line should have more frontload burst dps than the dot spec, that's all i'm trying to say.

 

Why does Madness need to be nerfed, it's doing fine. If lightning needs a fix, then fix it. But no need to nerf something that's working.

[MareLooke]

I don't really spend a lot of time spamming Lightning Strike, between all the procs and keeping all my dots up I don't usualy have much time left in my rotation to spam that, which usually means I get a Chain Lightning proc real fast as I'm past the 10sec CD on the instant CL proc and off we go again!

[krameriffic]

Or go Hybrid and stop stop trying to go full tree?

 

Its been talked to death that Full 31 points into a tree is bad vs going hybrid.

 

Lightning/Madness hybrid rules

 

When people don't feel any pull to get the 31 point talent in their trees, something has clearly gone wrong. WoW went about it the wrong way by forcing players to pick one tree and at least max it out. It's better to properly incentivize the player to get the 31 point talents rather than making hybrid specs blatantly better.

[spellegren]

When people don't feel any pull to get the 31 point talent in their trees, something has clearly gone wrong. WoW went about it the wrong way by forcing players to pick one tree and at least max it out. It's better to properly incentivize the player to get the 31 point talents rather than making hybrid specs blatantly better.

 

I disagree. If it is that essential to get the 31 point talent then there is much less variety in builds. The only options available to the player become which tree to select and 10 points to play with in the other trees. It cannot be any more boring then that.

 

Look at the variety of builds that we have now: 0/13/28, 0/23/18, 7/16/18, 13/15/16, 21/2/18 and each version of those has various tweaked and niche builds. Each and every one of them can be played effectively, as can pure specs in each tree.

[MajinUltima]

Lightning performs well in pve, I'm not sure why you would think otherwise.

 

There are no damage meters, the methods of comparing dps without meters can never be completely accurate.

--I suspect that is why you are under the impression that 31pt Lightning performs well.

 

Lightning's problems are best summed up as:

- No Force longevity, even with 2/2 Lightning Effusion.

- Lightning Strike being interrupted = 0 damage, Force Lightning being interrupted = a few ticks got off... PVP and many Operation bosses require sudden frequent movement, so Lightning suffers from dozens of missed dps chances during a long fight.

- The poorly placed and otherwise flawed UI: Bottom-of-screen buffs are harder to see in a fight than top-of-screen buffs because the top is always much closer to your target, and the FlyText does NOT notify the player when your instant Chain Lightning procs.

 

I want to say the easiest solution would be to make Lightning Strike cost much less Force, and have it be castable while moving. It doesn't put a slow on like Force Lightning does, so the PVP difference won't be noticed... most people fighting a Sorc/Sage would be glad to not be slowed. Having a little more kiting capacity is a reasonable tradoff for our main nuke not causing a slow and being more vulnerable to interrupts.

 

Alternately, instead of reducing the cost on Strike, Lightning Effusion could be changed as a skill. Rather than reducing the cost of the next 2 spells by 50%, just have it reduce the cost of the next 2 cast-time Force attacks by 100% (preventing Effusion from being used as much by Madness and preventing it from being used on heals at all).

 

Throw in a small buff to Creeping Terror, nerf Wrath to a 10sec limit, and you can fix 31pt Madness too. Also swap Lightning Barrage and Subversion, so that Madness can pick up Barrage without having to skip Creeping Terror.

[spellegren]

- The poorly placed and otherwise flawed UI: Bottom-of-screen buffs are harder to see in a fight than top-of-screen buffs because the top is always much closer to your target, and the FlyText does NOT notify the player when your instant Chain Lightning procs.

 

This effects every spec and most classes equally and is not specific to Lightning.

 

I want to say the easiest solution would be to make Lightning Strike cost much less Force, and have it be castable while moving. It doesn't put a slow on like Force Lightning does, so the PVP difference won't be noticed... most people fighting a Sorc/Sage would be glad to not be slowed. Having a little more kiting capacity is a reasonable tradoff for our main nuke not causing a slow and being more vulnerable to interrupts.

 

Alternately, instead of reducing the cost on Strike, Lightning Effusion could be changed as a skill. Rather than reducing the cost of the next 2 spells by 50%, just have it reduce the cost of the next 2 cast-time Force attacks by 100% (preventing Effusion from being used as much by Madness and preventing it from being used on heals at all).

 

Throw in a small buff to Creeping Terror, nerf Wrath to a 10sec limit, and you can fix 31pt Madness too. Also swap Lightning Barrage and Subversion, so that Madness can pick up Barrage without having to skip Creeping Terror.

 

So you want to reduce the effectiveness of a multitude of builds in order to increase the effectiveness of 1? I'd rather have choices in my builds and playstyle then mandatory 31 point talents, each and every time. It's one of the main reasons I chose Sorcerer as my main class for live.

[danarchist]

I went madness simply because I am too old and slow to react to procs quickly enough to do lightning viably. My guildie that is lightning seems to do much better than me. It is simply a matter of play style and reaction time imho.

[Zidaen]

Leveling it doesnt matter. HM Ops force is a issue with lightning tree as is the lack of mobility. I very much like the different build options however 31 lightning should be a viable choice compared to 31 madness and it currently is not once you hit hm operations.

 

I'll stay hybrid for now as 31 madness is boring. 31 lightning is fun and a well designed tree when it comes to not facerolling your keyboard but it's damage is lower when you factor force efficiency and lack of damage while moving.

 

For the "lol no combat log / dps meter" just go find a champ lvl 49 mob, ask a tank friend to taunt/tank it without attacking, grab a stop watch and see how fast it dies. Then respec and try it again. The difference isn't huge from 31L to 31M but 13/28 is faster. Now add some movement into it and try as 31L. It is rough.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Zidaen

[krameriffic]

I disagree. If it is that essential to get the 31 point talent then there is much less variety in builds. The only options available to the player become which tree to select and 10 points to play with in the other trees. It cannot be any more boring then that.

 

Look at the variety of builds that we have now: 0/13/28, 0/23/18, 7/16/18, 13/15/16, 21/2/18 and each version of those has various tweaked and niche builds. Each and every one of them can be played effectively, as can pure specs in each tree.

 

I didn't say essential, I said feel a pull to get it. Creeping death and thundering blast are really bad. There is almost no reason to spec fully into these trees. You look at something like a marauder, and you see 31 point talents like annihilate, massacre and force crush, things that fit into the mechanics of each tree in a pleasant and interesting way that is therefore worth trying to get.

[spellegren]

I didn't say essential, I said feel a pull to get it. Creeping death and thundering blast are really bad. There is almost no reason to spec fully into these trees. You look at something like a marauder, and you see 31 point talents like annihilate, massacre and force crush, things that fit into the mechanics of each tree in a pleasant and interesting way that is therefore worth trying to get.

 

I fully agree with a buff the 31 points talents, but not the entire restructuring of talent trees or changing of current talents.

[Wheelerific]

Look at the variety of builds that we have now: .......13/15/16.........., and each version of those has various tweaked and niche builds. Each and every one of them can be played effectively, as can pure specs in each tree.

 

Im interested to see how one gets 44 points to spend in their trees

 

13 11 17 ftw.

[spellegren]

Im interested to see how one gets 44 points to spend in their trees

 

13 11 17 ftw.

 

LOL I was rattling off builds so fast I forgot to add!

[Gorloff]

If you were smart you'd copy my spec....... The "Wrath" talent is by far more useful then any 31 pt talent(30% chance for next spell to cast instant),then put rest in lightning. Your basically casting force lighting then a instant Crushing Darkness or instant Chain Lightning....basically you have no casts times at all if you rotate correctly Edited January 16, 2012 by Gorloff

[Hooha]

I leveled to 33 as lightning spec - I have played a pure caster in almost every MMO from EQ1 on, so I know what I'm doing and how to figure out a rotation.

 

That said, I resisted changing my spec to madness but as I noticed other sorcs with same gear and same amount of play hours werea passing me like I was standing still in levels, I knew something was wrong. I tried pvping as lightning - the lack of mobility equaled quick death as lightning sorc. Myself and others had to have help with our class quests post 30 as interrupts were a death sentence. The shame.

 

I changed to madness and a bit of lightning - otherwise known as hybrid damage - and made 3 levels in as many hours. I literally could not believe how fast it was to level. There is no down time, there is no single pulls, crowd control, healing pet, micromanaging to stay alive as lightning requires. If anything goes wrong, a lightning spec sorc dies while madness spec thrives during chaos.

 

There is in fact something very broken with lightning. If you haven't changed your spec and played all of them, then you really can't contribute to this thread other than speculation. The tree looks good on paper but abilities are badly broken.

 

Fix the lightning tree - I went in thinking I could make any spec work, but after switching to madness, I realized I had been hitting my head against a wall for 30+ levels, and it sure did feel good when I stopped.

 

Don't make me into a warlock or shadow priest, let me be the face melter that damage sorcs should be able to be. While you're at it, give us a force choke. We are masters of the force, and it should be available to us, even if other classes have it as well.

[MareLooke]

I leveled to 33 as lightning spec - I have played a pure caster in almost every MMO from EQ1 on, so I know what I'm doing and how to figure out a rotation.

 

That said, I resisted changing my spec to madness but as I noticed other sorcs with same gear and same amount of play hours werea passing me like I was standing still in levels, I knew something was wrong. I tried pvping as lightning - the lack of mobility equaled quick death as lightning sorc. Myself and others had to have help with our class quests post 30 as interrupts were a death sentence. The shame.

 

I'm not sure I get what you mean here. I solo leveled pure lightning to 50 and haven't had big issues with any of class quests.

 

I changed to madness and a bit of lightning - otherwise known as hybrid damage - and made 3 levels in as many hours. I literally could not believe how fast it was to level. There is no down time, there is no single pulls, crowd control, healing pet, micromanaging to stay alive as lightning requires. If anything goes wrong, a lightning spec sorc dies while madness spec thrives during chaos.

 

Uhm, no. I've gotten out of some crazy pulls alive, maybe not as easily as a madness specced sorc and maybe I died more often than a madness specced sorc but it certainly makes sure I'm aware of my environment so I don't have accidents all the time.

 

There is in fact something very broken with lightning. If you haven't changed your spec and played all of them, then you really can't contribute to this thread other than speculation. The tree looks good on paper but abilities are badly broken.

 

Fix the lightning tree - I went in thinking I could make any spec work, but after switching to madness, I realized I had been hitting my head against a wall for 30+ levels, and it sure did feel good when I stopped.

 

Don't make me into a warlock or shadow priest, let me be the face melter that damage sorcs should be able to be. While you're at it, give us a force choke. We are masters of the force, and it should be available to us, even if other classes have it as well.

 

I'm sorry, lightning plays like a fire mage in the olden days of WoW (pre-Cata basically) with some newer stuff thrown in. Hell, our survivability is pretty awesome compared to said class. It might not be up there with madness, but who cares, I didn't level as frost in WoW either even though that was easier. I leveled as fire, everybody called me nuts but I stuck with it because I like the playstyle. Getting your positioning right to minimize required movement is a skill in itself and pretty fun imho.

 

Now if the fact that we have to be more careful with our mobility means we lose out on loads dps (even when positioning well) then something's wrong and we need a buff, I disagree with one of the previous posters that making our abilities castable on the run would be a solution (it ruined fire mages for me in WoW, no more skill required = boring, but to each their own), increasing the damage on lightning strike (or even better, Thundering Blast) might work though, to make up for the fact that we can't cast it on the move.

 

Anyway, imho, ymmv. I for one am not rerolling an affliction lock just because my fire mage is currently inferior, fotm rerolls tend to backfire in the long run anyway. Maybe I'll change my mind once we start on HM Operations but for now I'm good where I'm at.

Edited January 17, 2012 by MareLooke

[Kindran]

 

I'm sorry, lightning plays like a fire mage in the olden days of WoW (pre-Cata basically) with some newer stuff thrown in. Hell, our survivability is pretty awesome compared to said class. It might not be up there with madness, but who cares, I didn't level as frost in WoW either even though that was easier. I leveled as fire, everybody called me nuts but I stuck with it because I like the playstyle. Getting your positioning right to minimize required movement is a skill in itself and pretty fun imho.

 

Ummmm, not sure what your talking about with a fire mage, but Lightning Sorcerers play nearly exactly the same as an Elemental shaman.

Affliction(flame shock)>Thundering Blast(Lava Burst)>abilities from procs(Same)>Lightning Strike spam(Lightning Bolt spam) with Crushing Darkness thrown in.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Kindran