Not seeing the design connections between TOR, Clone Wars, and the original trilogy.

[Apax]

Maybe a lot of this is explained in the extended universe (at which point it's largely ignored by me as I feel a majority of the novels stink, minus a few gems), but I'm having problems figuring out some of the SWToR developer design connections between The Old Republic, the Clone Wars, and the original trilogy. I'm sure someone has a logical explanation, and hearing one is the point of this thread.

 

Take, for example, the classic "Star Destroyer" wedge shape vessel we all know from the orginal trilogy. They were used by the Galactic Empire. But the Galactic Empire was spawned from the Republic (aka "the good guys") after the Clone Wars. However, in SWToR these designs are not used by the Republic, they're used by the Sith Empire. And the Sith Empire has absolutely no relation to the Republic that eventually goes on to form the Empire we all know and love from the original trilogy (beyond the fact that it's headed by what is then called a Sith lord).

 

And why do all the Sith Empire grunts look like stormtroopers in black armor? Wouldn't this make everyone extremely suspicious in the Clone War era (and beyond) when the Republic trooper armor started to resemble a white-painted version of Sith body armor? Even the Sith royal guards in SWToR look *a lot* like Palpatine's Royal Guards during the Clone Wars (and then as the Emporer in the original triology). How does that make any sense?

 

See, I love seeing the costume and technology connections between Clone Wars and the original trilogy. They make sense. The problem is a lot of the art and design direction in SWToR don't seem to fit in with those other eras. If anything they seem to completely contradict them. It's like the designers tried to base the Sith Empire on the Galactic Empire from the the original trilogy, as if they were related. And, from my understanding, they're not. The "evil" Galactic Empire was spawned from the "good guy" Republic. I was actually expecting to see the Republic cruising around in a several thousand year old variation of wedge shape starships. It seems like, if anything, the Sith Empire should have been using a completely unique design we hadn't seen during the Clone War era and beyond.

 

Someone please enlighten me. What am I missing? And please don't say "extended universe stuff".

Edited January 14, 2012 by Apax

[drakhri]

It's interesting that in the Clone Wars the republic uses ships that are very similar to the star destroyers from the trilogy.

 

http://images.wikia.com/banthapedia/images/4/40/Venator.jpg

[Lokai]

palpatine took design, look, and generally was influenced by the OLD sith empire. He had new ships, armors ect designed to look like old sith empires designs, thus but was color coded to fit the republic, is why generally explanation you'll get i believe. Edited January 14, 2012 by Lokai

[xsmspiffs]

From a real-world historical point of view, often when one group takes over another they adopt/modify the customs of the defeated group. That makes it easier to assimilate them into the "winning" society.

 

Examples off the top of my head, the French in Canada kept their laws and language after the British won. Christmas took over from a pagan holiday.

 

The same sort of thing would probably have happened after the Sith Empire was defeated and planets joined the Republic.

[ColonelColt]

This can't really be explained lore-wise, but it can be explained real life wise.

 

Bioware were just lazy. If you look at the KOTOR games, the designs were all unique. You could kinda see some vague similarities and could see how these designs would morph over four thousand years, but they were still unique. Then in comes TOR and they flat out copy-paste the galactic empire in and just throw sith all over it. They even copy-paste clone trooper armor for the trooper class.

 

The republic is better about this as you can still see a sort of progression over time. The republic ships in KOTOR look similar to rep ships in TOR, which are moving away from those hammer head designs. But with the Empire, it's just a blatant copy-paste. Their ships look like something the GE would use. Their soldiers look like stormtroopers, they have the same governing system as the GE. Dissapoints me that unique and cool designs like the Leviathan were replaced by copy-pasted star destroyers.

[Amanzuul]

While there are some connections over time to the Star Wars Trilogy, keep in mind that SWTOR and its predecessors, Knights of the Old Republic 1 and 2 are several thousand years before the Skywalkers in the movie trilogy. On this website there is the holonet under Game info and choose Timeline and it will cover some of the events leading up to where the lore stands today. When we visit Taris and Korriban today, it is 300+ years since the war between Revan and Malak and the Mandalorian Wars which saw the destruction of the Mandalorian homeworld of Malachor V.

 

When you play on the Sith side of the game you learn a little about its early leaders, Marco Ragnos and Naga Sadow. On the republic side you learn a little about the early Jedi Councit. The holocrons we find, left behind by the architects which also play a part in the first Knights of the Old Republic game where we learn how Revan was able to amass a huge force after the Mandalorian wars to challenge the republic.

 

There is a ton of lore in KOTOR 1&2 and I love seeing its remnants in SWTOR. I am hopeful we will eventually learn what happened to Revan. I understand we fight HK 47 at some point, should be fun but I would have loved to have him as a companion. In one of the holo images as part of the consular quests we see Bastila Shan from KOTOR 1.

 

I remember the Rhakghouls from KOTOR 1 and helping find the cure/vaccine for the disease. I remember the destruction of Taris and barely escaping on a ship I had stolen from a crime lord. I have seen a little mention of Czerka Corporation which played a big part in the KOTOR games.

 

Being a lore nut it is taking me a while to level because I am exploring and reading everything and it is exciting to learn more about events and I can even look back and say "Hey! I remember when that happened!"

[sosolidshoe]

Maybe a lot of this is explained in the extended universe (at which point it's largely ignored by me as I feel a majority of the novels stink, minus a few gems), but I'm having problems figuring out some of the SWToR developer design connections between The Old Republic, the Clone Wars, and the original trilogy. I'm sure someone has a logical explanation, and hearing one is the point of this thread.

 

Take, for example, the classic "Star Destroyer" wedge shape vessel we all know from the orginal trilogy. They were used by the Galactic Empire. But the Galactic Empire was spawned from the Republic (aka "the good guys") after the Clone Wars. However, in SWToR these designs are not used by the Republic, they're used by the Sith Empire. And the Sith Empire has absolutely no relation to the Republic that eventually goes on to form the Empire we all know and love from the original trilogy (beyond the fact that it's headed by what is then called a Sith lord).

 

And why do all the Sith Empire grunts look like stormtroopers in black armor? Wouldn't this make everyone extremely suspicious in the Clone War era (and beyond) when the Republic trooper armor started to resemble a white-painted version of Sith body armor? Even the Sith royal guards in SWToR look *a lot* like Palpatine's Royal Guards during the Clone Wars (and then as the Emporer in the original triology). How does that make any sense?

 

See, I love seeing the costume and technology connections between Clone Wars and the original trilogy. They make sense. The problem is a lot of the art and design direction in SWToR don't seem to fit in with those other eras. If anything they seem to completely contradict them. It's like the designers tried to base the Sith Empire on the Galactic Empire from the the original trilogy, as if they were related. And, from my understanding, they're not. The "evil" Galactic Empire was spawned from the "good guy" Republic. I was actually expecting to see the Republic cruising around in a several thousand year old variation of wedge shape starships. It seems like, if anything, the Sith Empire should have been using a completely unique design we hadn't seen during the Clone War era and beyond.

 

Someone please enlighten me. What am I missing? And please don't say "extended universe stuff".

 

Look at the same things on the Republic side in this game, and you will see similarities between them and the Republic/Galactic Empire as well. I suspect it's meant to imply just how insidious and far-reaching Palpatine's manipulations were. The following is assuming we're considering the chronology as it exists today, ie, TOR occurred before the Republic, which occurred before the Empire.

 

Consider your example of the Royal Guards; they are are merging of the Imperial Guard from the TOR-era Sith Empire, and the traditional dress of the Republic Senate Guard. The armour of Stormtroopers is an evolution of Clone Trooper armour, the design for which was drawn from a fusion of traditional Republic designs seen in the TOR/Bane-eras and the Mandalorian design ethos - or another example of elements from the ancient(by the time of the movie Empire) Sith Empire seen in TOR being combined with the prevalent Republic aesthetics of the period. The "wedge" ships have been established as a staple of Sith design in the TOR period, and like all the other commonalities we're discussing who was responsible for their creation? Palpatine.

 

So, there you have it, the "in universe" explanation for the similarities is the monstrously complex scheming of Chancellor, then Emperor Palpatine, aka Darth Sideous, who brought aspects of ancient Sith aesthetics into the era of the Empire - remembering that the only people left in the galaxy who would have detailed knowledge of the TOR period of the Sith would be the Sith Lords themselves.

 

Of course, the actual reason is that the Empire in Star Wars had Star Destroyers/Royal Guard/Stormtroopers, so Bioware thought it would be cool to have them as part of the Empire in TOR.

[Mithros]

If they made entirely alien designs then the issue becomes "This game doesn't look like Star Wars", so they take some design principles and apply them to the appropriate sides.

 

The Sith look like the Galactic Empire because they need to. The XS freighter looks like the Millenium Falcon because that is the ship that a smuggler "should" have.

 

So in the game things look like they look to give people familiarity and this becomes history in relation to the films.

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Then fast forward to the movies, and someone working for the cause of the Galactic Empire is working behind the scenes to create a shadow army, and all of the gear for that army.

 

So this person, working for the cause of a Sith, is at the very least given designs, and these designs reflect -TA-DA!- Old Sith sensibilities.

 

Palpatine took his designs from the Old Sith to recreate his new Sith.

 

The ships here do not look like the ones in Star Wars, the ones in Star Wars look like these. You have to change your perspective.

[OrionPex]

Technology and design recycles itself (especially after 25,000 years of near constant war, i.e. Star Wars). One group reaches an apex, and then is destroyed. Another group takes over, rebuilds and naturally evolves to a certain level of technology. This can be seen with cultures that had zero influence on each other, e.g. Great Pyramids in Egypt and the Maya Pyramids in Mexico. Why did they both build pyramids? Because their engineers found that this is best way to gain height from a limited material such as stone.

[Amanzuul]

Like I mentioned in an earlier post, check out the time line on the holonet under the game info menu. SWTOR is set millenia before the original Star Wars Trilogy. The Republic predates SWTOR and KOTOR 1 & 2. It is an alliance that forms when hyperspace travel is discovered.

 

The ingenius way Palpatine comes to power and literally does it through coersion and manipulation is quite different from the full frontal assault the Sith Empire had tried conquests in the past. That's what makes it so evil.

 

And like most histories there is a cycle. We are at a point where the Sith Empire and the Republic are about equal but the Republic is heading to a lower point and the Sith Empire is rising. In the previous games you see something similar:

 

pre-Mandalorian Wars - Republic is strong though getting soft, Jedi are plentiful and believe the Sith to possibly be extinct.

 

Mandalorian Wars - Mandalorians invade the Outer Rim, Jedi want to study the threat, young jedi join the republic fight, Revan and Malak look for a way to fight the Mandalorians and are corrupted in their quest to win the Mandalorian war. Revan and Malak defeat the Mandalorians. There is a split in the Jedi Order. Revan and Malak form a new Sith empire. Sith Empire rising, Republic and Jedi about to fall, few Sith, many Jedi.

 

KOTOR 1 - Revan and Malak's Sith Empire is defeating the republic and Jedi. Under Revan and Malak the Sith are becoming more numerous, the Jedi are becoming fewer.

 

KOTOR 2 - Your character in this game is believed to be one of the last Jedi. You help destroy the Sith Darkness that has been hunting down and killing the Jedi. War comes to an end with the Sith forces scattered and the jedi can begin anew. Sith are falling the Jedi are starting to climb back up again.

 

Prior to SWTOR - Even in one of the promo's for the game, the Jedi and the Republic on on Korriban sifting through all they believe is left of the Sith Empire, but the Sith have been lying in wait for their return, gaining strength. Thus begins the great war that is just prior to this game that comes to an end with the Treaty of Coruscant. Sith Empire rising, Republic and Jedi coming back down.

 

Skip ahead to the movies and the Phantom Menace, many in the Republic and Jedi believe the Sith to be no more. But this time instead of coming right at the Jedi, the Sith do it through the Republic with Palpatine's corruption of the Republic leading to the fall of the Jedi. Sith rising, the Jedi and Republic falling. By the end of Return of the Jedi, the Alliance has taken back their republic, balance has been brought back again, Jedi and republic rising, Sith falling.

 

So you can see the lore pattern, like our own human history, there are patterns. You see George Lucas's original theme of balance. Whenever the scale becomes unbalanced, the light and dark side of the force shift to bring balance once again.

[KuusouRumba]

Making a Star Wars game feel familiar is more important than having a logical Star Wars game, or else the ranbid fanbase will cut off your head.

 

Every Hutt in the game using carbonite to freeze people is one example of this

[Quaade]

Making a Star Wars game feel familiar is more important than having a logical Star Wars game, or else the ranbid fanbase will cut off your head.

 

Every Hutt in the game using carbonite to freeze people is one example of this

 

Yes, that clearly explains the rampant success of Tales of the Jedi: The Old Republic and the KoTOR games inspired from it where the designs were vastly different and it was hailed as capturing that star wars feel while still being something new.

 

This is a mess of design influences and in some aspects down right copism which is really really jarring given the time period as well as a collective insult to the fans faces "you can't handle something new, here have something old you've seen before!"