Expertise is a giant mistake, didn't you learn from Trion?

[SandTrout]

if you do this what is the point of PvE? if you can get the best PvE gear from PvP why bother spending hours learning the boss fights, whiping, and paying those large repair bills? The only reason would be to see the content, which a lot of people won't care about, or wont want to spend the time doing, its almost like going back and doing all your quests to see the content, there will be no gear rewards, it will take a lot of time, but it can be interesting... a lot of people just won't do that

Because I enjoy the PvE content?

 

Are you seriously stating that the only reason that you do PvE is to get the gear to do PvE, and that you don't actually enjoy PvE?

[RealAeiouy]

People who don't understand expertise don't understand pvp.

 

Listen we understand you are a pve player who wants to glory hound in pvp but part of the game is character progression which includes pvp gear. Expertise is just another combat stat like any other. People who think it is something magical don't understand the mechanics nor why it exists.

 

People who are good at pvp and enjoy it have no problem with expertise.

[SandTrout]

What would happen?

 

This is what would happen:

 

People would do PVP only for gear, and then steamroll PVE encounters and get bored. Then because "PVP gear is too easy to get", they would nerf the acquisition rate of it (again, after the "Hardcore" minority already has it), further pissing off the majority of PVPers, and forcing them to go PVE for their gear so they can PVP because its now the fastest way to acquire gear... and then realize that since they PVE'd for their gear, their PVPing now has no real goal other than killing people because they have everything already.

Or, you know, you could try to win matches...

 

You might enjoy the end-game PvE content...

 

If you don't actually desire either of these things, and you are still playing the game, you have issues.

[Cherlin]

I'll just copy paste myself again:

 

The funny thing is Bioware tried to even the playing field for all levels with their bolstering system. This indicates they wanted all people no matter what level they were to have a chance at victory.

 

Then they completely throw it out the window with a PvP stat, and worse, a LAZY implementation of a PvP stat.

 

Expertise is only useful to dominate people who don't have it. It's an increase in damage coupled with a decrease in damage taken, which flatly cancels out against someone with equal amounts. (Except for healing....)

 

"PvP players" whine endlessly about how if it didn't exist that "PvE players" could come over with PvE gear and faceroll, but if PvP gear were the same strength (without a garbage PvP stat) I don't see any issues whatsoever as the PvP players would have more skill and experience at PvPing.

 

Unless that's your fear - that the PvE players aren't actually worse than you are, who spends all your time PvPing exclusively. You fear them and need your precious artificial advantage.

 

Another thing broken about a PvP stat is it basically doubles the gear penalty.

 

If I'm a fresh 50, and I fight someone with raid gear, they have a gear advantage - more HP, more damage, more armor, etc.

 

If I fight someone in PvP gear, not only do I have the same gear disadvantage (remember, PvP gear has raid gear-level stats on it in ADDITION to expertise!) but a massive expertise disadvantage.

 

I have no chance whatsoever.

 

Expertise only "works" at its stupid purpose of giving an advantage over raid gear when FIGHTING PEOPLE IN RAID GEAR. Fighting someone who has neither is just utter obliteration. Without the PvP stat you'd be at a major disadvantage, but at least you'd have a chance.

 

This is the critical flaw with a PvP stat.

 

If you remove expertise you remove the need for PvP gear, if you ever played wow in the begining, before resil, you would know the hardcore raiders would come in with there awesome gear and rock everyone, and i meen everyone, their gear was so much stronger then top tier pve gear. sure you could win 1v1 just because you were better but in group situations, you would be rocked. thus the implimentation of Resil, so that there would be no kings of both worlds. you can no longer be the top pvper in pve gear nore the top pve'r in pvp gear... it adds a balance to the game you fail to see. the reason the damege and the damege reduction scale is so that top tier pvp is the same as bottom tier pvp. sure the more geared player will beat lower geared players... shouldnt that be how it works? the person who invested 50 hours in pvp should beat the person who invested 5 right?

[SandTrout]

People who don't understand expertise don't understand pvp.

 

Listen we understand you are a pve player who wants to glory hound in pvp but part of the game is character progression which includes pvp gear. Expertise is just another combat stat like any other. People who think it is something magical don't understand the mechanics nor why it exists.

 

People who are good at pvp and enjoy it have no problem with expertise.

 

Actually, I'm a PvP player who doesn't want to grind the same FP an ungodly number of times in order to try out the top-end ones.

[RealAeiouy]

Yes i already see how those people who started at pre-launch and no-lifed to 50 in like a week, have an advantage with battlemaster gear even over other new fresh lvl 50's now. They had this one-time-only window of opportunity that is already closing and will be closed completely with this new 1.1 patch. And no one else will have it. Fair?

 

And I am one of those "fresh ones". Now playing in pvp brings back NEGATIVE memories from WoW pvp, one thing i feared and hoped it wouldn't.

 

Not boasting here, but I consider myself a fairly decent player who can win most of my 1 vs 1's. But when i face those grinders, I already just give up - no use to ressist anyways.

 

Why and who thought that additional stat for pvp is a good idea?

 

Why can't I gather my gear in a way I want - wether it's PVE, PVP, crafting or w/e, and use it for anything i want - pvp or pve?

 

How is it unfair if i collect my gear from PVP and then go PVE raiding with it, and vice versa? As long as PVE and PVP contents are both equally challenging, there is not difference to me!

Nobody who just gives up is good at pvp. The ceiling is low for gear acquisition and the only requirement is playing pvp.

 

Every faction will have loaded 50s on their side and play against new 50s. We need to stop with the excuse making.

[xxdragonragexx]

I am pretty sure it is you that is short sighted and not seeing the whole picture. If this pvp only stat remains as is... in its current state, there will be no longevity of the game because no-one but the hard core will choose to grind it out. Those who on top will always be on top and those on the bottom will always have an uphill battle (there is no fun in that) unless of course you happen to lose your job and suddenly have a month of free time to grind out warzones. Lets face it there is no fun in grinding out the same warzones day after day and it is exactly what happens in any game that has pvp only gear.

 

The really fun pvp (open world pvp) struggles to succeed because people do not want to partake in it until they have their pvp gear. Some people will just outright quit playing because they do not want to grind and those that don't mind the grind will quit because there is no-one to play with. Pretty much every game that has tried to copy wow's version of pvp is dead or slowly getting there. The only reason wow's pvp is still going is because people have way to much time and effort invested into their characters thus they are a little more willing to continue on with the same old same old grind. Trying to do this from the ground up is a big no no because now people are thinking.... "hmmm every patch that introduces a new tier of gear I am going to have to grind my azz off to stay on top or near the top and heaven help me if my play time is limited for some unknown reason".

 

The fact remains that there are much better ways to make pvp more enjoyable for all not only short term but long term and the first step is by removing the pvp only stat from gear and then code player skills so they do x% less damage against players than they do against npc's. Once this is done then bioware can concentrate on rewarding valor ranks with fun perks (instead of gear, however gear can still be bought with comms). They could also give out titles for x amount of player kills (only in the open world) and such.

 

The bottom line is in order to player vs player you need players and anything that discourages players from participating is a bad thing..... please think long term, months and even years down the road.

 

Imagine 3 months down the road showing off your full BM decked out Sith Sorc to your friends while standing on the fleet station... but this is all you are doing because your warzone que is 1 hour long and there is no one in any of the pvp zones.

 

 

This is actually what MMO does to keep their playerbase. It will always be an uphill battle if you are new to 50 or very very casual. If everyone has the same gear, same advantage, and everything is fair, it wouldn't be a MMO. They want an uphill battle so you will spend a lot of time farming and grinding for gear to be competitive.

 

So you are wrong.

[Corran]

There should be NO special stat for 50 pvp, it makes no sense. In every old pvp mmo that's ever came out they didn't need special stats, it was about your build, and skill. That's enough, only bad's require special stats that put them at an extreme advantage. Nobody else does.

 

Trion made a GIANT MISTAKE with Valor, and they admit it! They tried to remove it, then they tried to add it to PVE gear, then they decided 'screw it' and tossed the same valor on ALL pvp gear! Essentially they realize any special stat people can 'grind out' in PVP places a tremendous imbalance into the game that isn't easily fixed.

 

I foresee a huge problem with the 50's bracket when new 50's enter it and become 'food' for people that have high expertise they got from GRINDING LOW LEVELS, while the new 50's won't have this luxury. They will be slaughtered. Therefore, choose your solution;

 

1) Expertise needs to be removed.

2) Expertise needs to be added to lower level pvp gear.

3) Entry-Level 50's PVP gear needs to be added that has expertise, and is purchasable with Warzone Coms prior to reaching 50.

 

Take your pick, one of the three has to happen or the noob farming won't stop with the 50's bracket. If someone needs their own special stat to compete in pvp then they can just give up pvping. There is little logic in these 'special' stats, and they only serve to cause more imbalances.

 

unlike valor in rift, expertise isnt as huge of a buff.

[Xilrasis]

Or, you know, you could try to win matches...

 

You might enjoy the end-game PvE content...

 

If you don't actually desire either of these things, and you are still playing the game, you have issues.

 

As much as I love clearing "end-game PvE content", I usually only love it once. The very first time, after working so hard to (GEAR UP) and (THROW CONSUMABLES/MONEY/TIME) at encounters so that I can feel that sense of accomplishment. After that, its simply another grind working toward that carrot, running that treadmill, so that we can prepare for that next big rush of killing a boss for the first time.

 

If everyone already has the gear from PVP, they'll do it once (And most likely roll right over it since they vastly overgear it), then get bored of the content they spent countless development hours on and never do it again.

[Smashbrother]

There should be NO special stat for 50 pvp, it makes no sense. In every old pvp mmo that's ever came out they didn't need special stats, it was about your build, and skill. That's enough, only bad's require special stats that put them at an extreme advantage. Nobody else does.

 

Trion made a GIANT MISTAKE with Valor, and they admit it! They tried to remove it, then they tried to add it to PVE gear, then they decided 'screw it' and tossed the same valor on ALL pvp gear! Essentially they realize any special stat people can 'grind out' in PVP places a tremendous imbalance into the game that isn't easily fixed.

 

I foresee a huge problem with the 50's bracket when new 50's enter it and become 'food' for people that have high expertise they got from GRINDING LOW LEVELS, while the new 50's won't have this luxury. They will be slaughtered. Therefore, choose your solution;

 

1) Expertise needs to be removed.

2) Expertise needs to be added to lower level pvp gear.

3) Entry-Level 50's PVP gear needs to be added that has expertise, and is purchasable with Warzone Coms prior to reaching 50.

 

Take your pick, one of the three has to happen or the noob farming won't stop with the 50's bracket. If someone needs their own special stat to compete in pvp then they can just give up pvping. There is little logic in these 'special' stats, and they only serve to cause more imbalances.

 

 

If there was no pvp only stat, there would be no real difference between pvp and pve gear, and players would just farm pve gear to use in pvp. Then there would be no point in pvp gear.

 

Expertise is also like 10% dam reduction/extra dam. It's nothing game breaking.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Smashbrother

[RealAeiouy]

Expertise is a necessary evil.

 

If you guys would all quit crying about it for a few seconds and contemplate how removing the stat would effect overall balance and longevity of the game, you might figure out why every major MMO in the last 3-4 years is using a variation of it.

 

You guys are just like my employees who come to me and complain about why we do things a certain way where I work. They get all worked up, then I explain the bigger picture and they say "oh, I never thought of that".

 

I think George Bush said it best as he was leaving the White House: "When you know what I know, you will make the same decisions".

 

The problem is people complaining about it think it is the only thing that keeps them from getting rolled.

[Corran]

As much as I love clearing "end-game PvE content", I usually only love it once. The very first time, after working so hard to (GEAR UP) and (THROW CONSUMABLES/MONEY/TIME) at encounters so that I can feel that sense of accomplishment. After that, its simply another grind working toward that carrot, running that treadmill, so that we can prepare for that next big rush of killing a boss for the first time.

 

If everyone already has the gear from PVP, they'll do it once (And most likely roll right over it since they vastly overgear it), then get bored of the content they spent countless development hours on and never do it again.

 

er...then mmorpg's are probably not for you.

[EternalFinality]

Because I enjoy the PvE content?

 

Are you seriously stating that the only reason that you do PvE is to get the gear to do PvE, and that you don't actually enjoy PvE?

 

Seriously. And the converse for PvP -

 

Do you only fight people in PvP to get better gear to fight more people in PvP? You don't actually find the fighting part fun?

[Sky_walkerPL]

If you remove expertise you remove the need for PvP gear

 

Erm... no.

Simply there would be 2 ways to get great gear:

Through PvE.

Through PvP.

 

At the end, highest-value gear would have nearly identical stats for both play types. If someone plays PvP only he will find PvP gear NECESSARY to exist and survive.

If some PvE player is new to PvP he won't be obliterated in first games and actually will have a chance to enjoy it, get more into topic, and community will have more active players.

[Treebyrn]

I don't understand some people. I really don't.

 

Killadrix has offered MULTIPLE reasons why expertise is not only a convenience, but a necessity. He's not offering them as individual opinions. They're a PACKAGE. You put them all together and the end result is expertise.

 

Instead, some of you are trying to pick apart flaws in individual points he has made without actually piecing together all of the parts. In nearly every order of life, everything has a foundation with multiple variables that have to be intricately balanced in order for it to function. For a car to function, you need more than just the engine. You need a proper frame, adequate power to weight ratio, protection for the driver (you do consider this part of a car's function, right?), adequate traction devices (aka tires), axles, differentials, etc. The argument most of you are making is like saying you don't like the way the car handles and you switch out the wheels and tires without understanding that your suspension, weight, motor, and frame all have a drastic effect on the end result.

*SNIP*

 

Funny you should use the whole car analogy .. what happens when your battery or maybe your starter or maybe your brakes quit??? The car stops functioning correctly. The same thing happens to pvp communities when players quit. See this happens when short sighted people add a stat to gear that is absolutely needed to be competitive. Some people will be happy to grind it out each and every time, some people give it a shot for the first month or so and some people never leave the starting gate. Players leave and then pvp dies off.... devs start to think people don't like to pvp so their game and every other game that comes after gets more attention towards pve than pvp. Oh and when they do add in pvp they put a pvp stat on the gear so the cycle continues on.

[RealAeiouy]

Actually, what I'm saying is that I want to PvP in my PvE gear, and PvE in my PvP gear. I don't want to dedicate myself solely to 1/2 of the game because of some bad crack that was being smoked over at Blizzard.

 

That can't happen because pve players think raiding is hard. This post is proof you don't understand why the stat exists and should stop railing on it until you educate yourself.

 

By the way there is nothing wring with having to pve for pve and pvp for pvp.

[Anvenom]

The entire idea of expertise is terrible. Making pvp a gear grind just like pve turns it into work rather than fun. Pvp and pve endgame gear should be roughly equivalent. Maybe have a few pvp pieces the best in slot, a few pve pieces best in slot and a few crafted best in slot that way theres a reason to enjoy every part of the game. Forcing people to choose whether the want to be good at pvp or good at pve is silly. Let us play both

[RealAeiouy]

Exactly.

 

Most of these people must be new to MMO's and didn't see days of the elite PVE raiders dominating PVP.

 

Else, they would be on here crying about that too....wahhhhhh, why do the hardcore raiders get all the best gear and beat me up all the time, its not fairrrr!!

 

I think most of the complaints are from pve players who want to dabble in pvp like it is a mini game.

[EternalFinality]

If you remove expertise you remove the need for PvP gear, if you ever played wow in the begining, before resil, you would know the hardcore raiders would come in with there awesome gear and rock everyone, and i meen everyone, their gear was so much stronger then top tier pve gear. sure you could win 1v1 just because you were better but in group situations, you would be rocked. thus the implimentation of Resil, so that there would be no kings of both worlds. you can no longer be the top pvper in pve gear nore the top pve'r in pvp gear... it adds a balance to the game you fail to see. the reason the damege and the damege reduction scale is so that top tier pvp is the same as bottom tier pvp. sure the more geared player will beat lower geared players... shouldnt that be how it works? the person who invested 50 hours in pvp should beat the person who invested 5 right?

 

But do you know why the top raiders rocked everyone? You're not going to want to hear this but it's the truth:

 

Top raiders are actually good at the game.

 

Both PvE and PvP.

 

They rock you not just because of their gear, but because they have team work honed over a thousand raids. They are fast with healing. They can damage train something with brutal efficiency. When you run in to interrupt their flag cap, they see an add to be CC'd and bursted down.

 

While you spent 50 hours PvPing, they spent 5 hours PvPing and 500 hours PvEing. They're just as good as you. In a team, they're better than you.

 

In reality - they spent 50+ hours playing the game, just like you did. Forcing people to spend the time playing only a specific part of the game because your fragile ego can't handle people being better than you at something you dumped all your time in is beyond moronic.

 

Not a single person would complain if you "rolled" into a flashpoint or operation sporting PvP gear and contributed. The boss you killed certainly won't be calling for a nerf.

Edited January 14, 2012 by EternalFinality

[Feskitt]

Add to the Expertise nonsense, Pre-made vs PUG, and you'll REALLY screw over new lvl 50's.

 

 

[Xilrasis]

er...then mmorpg's are probably not for you.

 

Uh, I hate to break it to you, but what I just gave you an example of is the most intrinsically basic concept of just about every MMO on the market.

 

Just because people are too blind to see through the paper thin veils they try to mask it with doesn't mean its not true.

 

Let me give you an example:

 

Lets take WOTLK as an example. Lets say you had cleared all of Heroic Icecrown (including Lich King). Did you continue to go back and clear Naxxramas (which you could practically solo at this point with the right classes and decent gear) "just for the fun of it"? Ulduar? Trial of the Grand Crusader?

 

Answer: Hell no. The only reason you ever set foot in Naxx was sheer boredom or achievements. You only went to Ulduar to sell Mimiron head mounts to random suckers and Drake achievements... MAYBE the off chance at val'anyr fragments. You only killed Malygos for Achievements. Sartharion for a mount for some person's 5th alt. Hell, even Ruby Sanctum was practically abandoned except for endlessly killing it for trinkets and maybe cloaks that were best in slot.

 

And all the same, did you still enjoy, week after week, snoozing through Marrowgar, Deathwhisper, jumping off of Gunship because it was more fun than the encounter itself? Praying someone didn't fall asleep with plague on putricide or blow up the raid on Blood Queen out of boredom? Hope your ranged didn't fall asleep on Princes and allow a ball to hit the floor? God forbid someone fail at ice block on Sindragosa...

 

The point is, the repetitiveness of this sort of stuff isn't for the "fun of it". Its to get in, get the gear, and get out and prepare you for the next thing. You can pretend that isn't the case all you want, but it doesn't change history or facts.

[SandTrout]

Seriously. And the converse for PvP -

 

Do you only fight people in PvP to get better gear to fight more people in PvP? You don't actually find the fighting part fun?

 

Yes, I do find a tough match with a good team on both sides quite enjoyable. I do admit the same three WZs every time is getting tedious, but that's why I want to do some of the raid content to break the monotony.

 

I imagine that the Ilum changes will make world PvP more viable as well (well, more hoping than expecting).

[Treebyrn]

This is actually what MMO does to keep their playerbase. It will always be an uphill battle if you are new to 50 or very very casual. If everyone has the same gear, same advantage, and everything is fair, it wouldn't be a MMO. They want an uphill battle so you will spend a lot of time farming and grinding for gear to be competitive.

 

So you are wrong.

 

Actually time will tell who is right... if in 4 months time Bioware stays on this same path with no changes and the pvp community is still strong then yes I will be wrong but I don't think this is going to be the case. Bioware is going to have to make changes, by either slowly ramping people up to the expertise cap (starting at lev 10) or remove the expertise stat from gear and control damage output via coding skills to hit for X% less against players.

 

Oh and you might be surprised how many people would stick around to pvp if they got a cool title for killing 10,000 enemy players in open world pvp or a 2 seater speeder for valor rank 65.

[RealAeiouy]

If you l2p you won't need a 20% damage advantage over new players.

 

Yes, new players deal 900 instead of 1000 to the geared player, but the geared player is dealing 1100 instead of 1000 to the new player. Expertise works both directions.

 

People who enjoy pvp and are good at it have no problems leveling up and being disadvantaged. it is a challenge and part of character growth. I am not level 50 yet, I have zero concerns playing in the new bracket as a new level 50 I do it now

 

In fact the times I most improve at pvp are when I am out geared and leveled because I have to get better at surviving and making an impact. When I get to level gear I am that much better.

[RealAeiouy]

The problem with expertise is it should be a universal stat that everyone in PvP has from day one.

 

Not handed to a select few to give them an advantage.

 

That is all. That fixes your "terrible" PvE problem.

 

Just give everyone 400 expertise from their PvP gear, even at level 10.

 

Then everyone, with the bolster system, is on an equal footing, except for skills, abilities, and a few stats.

 

That does not fix the problem at all.