Expertise is a giant mistake, didn't you learn from Trion?

[mattkingsw]

There will be no need for expertise on <50 gear once 1.1 rolls in. As for level 50 gear they simply need to introduce entry level PvP gear (the gear they removed LOL). 20% damage difference is pretty huge.

 

True enough, once the 50 bracket is in - expertise can simply disappear.

 

It is also true that in BETA there was 'entry level' 50's pvp gear, purchasable with Warzone Commedations, this should not have been removed, but actually it was a little weak and should be added back in after enhancements/buffing. If expertise is still in, the entry level gear should come with a marginal amount.

 

What worries me more, 6-7 of my friends have been blocked from forum posting here. I have reviewed many of their posts and found that they are good posts, and are not incendiary. So it appears there is 'corrective action' being taken against people that voice opinions, or are critical of the game. This really makes Bioware look bad, when they try to silence legitimate conversation by blocking people out from posting.

 

Not good!

[Killadrix]

True enough, once the 50 bracket is in - expertise can simply disappear.

 

It is also true that in BETA there was 'entry level' 50's pvp gear, purchasable with Warzone Commedations, this should not have been removed, but actually it was a little weak and should be added back in after enhancements/buffing. If expertise is still in, the entry level gear should come with a marginal amount.

 

What worries me more, 6-7 of my friends have been blocked from forum posting here. I have reviewed many of their posts and found that they are good posts, and are not incendiary. So it appears there is 'corrective action' being taken against people that voice opinions, or are critical of the game. This really makes Bioware look bad, when they try to silence legitimate conversation by blocking people out from posting.

 

Not good!

 

How did you review their post if they were deleted immediately upon their account being actioned?

[Snakeloki]

Remove it!

[Kemorand]

Expertise is a necessary evil.

 

If you guys would all quit crying about it for a few seconds and contemplate how removing the stat would effect overall balance and longevity of the game, you might figure out why every major MMO in the last 3-4 years is using a variation of it.

 

You guys are just like my employees who come to me and complain about why we do things a certain way where I work. They get all worked up, then I explain the bigger picture and they say "oh, I never thought of that".

 

I think George Bush said it best as he was leaving the White House: "When you know what I know, you will make the same decisions".

 

The reason is simple: It puts people who played more PvP, in a gear advantage over others who didn't. However, between people with the same gear, it doesn't do anything since it boosts damage done AND reduces damage received at the same time. With the overall same playing field, the only beneficiaries are healers, since their bonus to heal will stick and is not countered.

 

It's purely, and simply a "gank" stat: people who have it enjoy ganking people who don't have it, and people who don't have it, suck it up until they finally have it, then they enjoy ganking people who don't.

 

And..are you REALLY quoting G. Bush? I mean...really?

[Freewareplayer]

The reason is simple: It puts people who played more PvP, in a gear advantage over others who didn't. However, between people with the same gear, it doesn't do anything since it boosts damage done AND reduces damage received at the same time.

That stupid argumentation can be applied to leveling too, the next step would be removing leveling.

 

The reason is simple: It puts people who leveled more , in a level advantage over others who didn't. However, between people with the same level, it doesn't do anything since it boosts damage done AND reduces damage received at the same time.

 

 

 

See what i did there? Your criticising the basic nature of an MMORPG. You spend more time in it = you get a better character. You can always play League Of Legends if you want everyone to have same stats.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Freewareplayer

[SandTrout]

And..are you REALLY quoting G. Bush? I mean...really?

Neither appropriate or witty. Edited January 16, 2012 by SandTrout

[Faxxon]

lol @ players thinking a PvP stat is essential to competitive PvP, and even more lol @ kids going "PLAY A GAME WHERE ALL CLASSES HAVE SAME ABILTIES FOR BALANCE!!!11"

 

Clearly I now know whos 12 years old and didn't play DAoC

[SandTrout]

See what i did there? Your criticising the basic nature of an MMORPG. You spend more time in it = you get a better character. You can always play League Of Legends if you want everyone to have same stats.

I just might, there. It was a game that was actually designed with PvP in mind instead of bolting on a carbon copy from another game that was not designed for PvP.

[Toranna]

Expertise is easily attainable once you hit 50. It takes less than a week to get a solid array of Champ Gear unless you are pathetically unlucky. For the majority of the population, they'll have 4-5 piece champ by the end of week 1.

 

Given that expertise only accounts for 10% extra damage (as well as less damage taken, etc) your point is moot.

 

Easily obtainable for some. For others (and I would think a majority with the ammount of complaints) is an absolute headache. i ahve only been going for 10 days at 50 and 11 bags later no Champ items and onyl two centurian implants to show. Where as otehr are 4-5 pieces into Champ and are dominating because of the "PvP Stat".

[Almghty_gir]

as of tomorrow, new 50's are going to be in for a reeeeeal hard time.

 

they won't be able to rely on their team to win warzones and therefor complete their daily, because the daily now revolves around player kills... players which are harder to kill because they're already in full pvp/expertise gear.

they won't be able to do the ilum daily either, because that now revolves around player kills, so they'll be against players who AFK'd their way to full pvp/expertise gear.

 

as of tomorrow, anyone who isn't already 50, is going to have a really really bad time of it, especially since (on my server at the least) warzones are already dominated by premades.

 

edit:

and let's not forget, because they've only changed the way battlemaster bags work, with the way the current RNG system works even if they do manage to complete their quests, which they wont be able to often, they'll still not be able to gear up particularly fast if they're UNLUCKY.

 

 

so basically in order to be successful in the game you need to have rushed to 50, afk'd a lot, and been lucky... some fair system there, right?

Edited January 16, 2012 by Almghty_gir

[chrismgtis]

Expertise is a necessary evil.

 

If you guys would all quit crying about it for a few seconds and contemplate how removing the stat would effect overall balance and longevity of the game, you might figure out why every major MMO in the last 3-4 years is using a variation of it.

 

You guys are just like my employees who come to me and complain about why we do things a certain way where I work. They get all worked up, then I explain the bigger picture and they say "oh, I never thought of that".

 

I think George Bush said it best as he was leaving the White House: "When you know what I know, you will make the same decisions".

 

No. It isn't. Go back to WoW. Right now. Do it. Seriously. You're bad.

[netskink]

This, exactly this.

 

This is what these people don't think about.

 

I don't get it. If you spend time playing pvp or pve, you are "spending time". Why have two distinct sets? Maybe this month, you want to spend time doing pvp, next month you would like to pve.

 

Also, why not have crafting create gear which is capable for either? To be honest, I like all aspects of the game, pvp, pve, crafting, questing/leveling.

 

It seems from reading these boards that if you are not lvl 50 with pvp gear now, you have missed the curve and will be forever camped later.

 

Also it seems that if you are not grinding pve raids now, you will never be picked for raids since pvp gear is crap. In wow, I remember raid progressions. I think the intention was do heroics, do entry level raids, do the next level raid, do the final raid level. I joined late and people wanted to be carried in heroics and then skip to the latest greatest raid boss. Everything in between, the lvl 60, 70, and entry level 80 raids were unused.

 

Furthermore, if you spend time crafting, its all crap once you get to 50 since its not used for pve or pvp.

[Puremallace]

First off for those arguing against a pvp stat you are all idiots. Lets begin there.

 

2nd all this does is normalize expertise among the gear sets. Simple easy concept

 

TADA was that hard to understand?

 

Your biggest issue come tomorrow will be queue times or getting the exact war front until hell freezes over.

 

For people who unsubbed from Rift before they made this change for the love of god shut up you sound like idiots.

[vvp_pe]

no. expertise is great.

 

if you pvp you progress in pvp gear that is best for pvping.

 

if your pve you progress in pvp gear that is best for pveing.

 

HOWEVER

 

they are kind of interchangeable. You are better off in Tier 2 pve gear than Tier 1 pvp gear in PVP.

 

it's ****in' great.

[YanksfanJP]

Give me a valid explanation for why it is needed. The only one I have seen provided is that it is intended to make up for PvP/PvE stat differences which do not need to exist. Allow access to equally stated gear by either path (IE: DAoC, one of the better PvP based MMOs which never had a PvP stat of any sort) and there is no gear gap between PvE and PvP gear that requires an ill-though solution like expertise for correct.

 

The valid reason is that PvP'ers complain if they feel they have to PvE to get gear to PvP with, and PvE'ers complain if they have to PvP to get gear to PvE with.

 

Because of this, they have to make PvP gear undesirable for PvE and PvE gear undesirable for PvE. That's where Expertise/Resilience/whatever come from.

[SandTrout]

The valid reason is that PvP'ers complain if they feel they have to PvE to get gear to PvP with, and PvE'ers complain if they have to PvP to get gear to PvE with.

 

Because of this, they have to make PvP gear undesirable for PvE and PvE gear undesirable for PvE. That's where Expertise/Resilience/whatever come from.

So, EPEEN stroking?

[Pwnzie]

My advice to Bioware:

 

remove Expertise and set a flat damage reduction to all damage done by player to player; this would also solve the problem of doing disproportionate damage in respect to hp pools and if needed, you can simply tweak the reduction accordingly to the needs; Then let people farm pvp gear for useful set bonuses and prestige, rather than expertise.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Pwnzie

[Knifewrench]

No. It isn't. Go back to WoW. Right now. Do it. Seriously. You're bad.

 

When all other actually arguments get exhausted, you get stuff like this. It's like Godwin's Law for internet QQ.

[Kryptorchid]

As to why Expertise needs to exist:

 

To make up for PvP/PvE stat imbalances that do, in fact, exist, and need to exist.

 

As raid tiers progress, and difficulty, perforce, progresses, PvE gear will scale exponentially - it has to, to keep up with bosses that might literally have 2-3x as much health as an entry level raid boss. At the same time, player health pools simply DO NOT scale thusly, and CANNOT, due to the way items are built.

 

If you DONT implement a "PvP stat", you get Vanilla WoW: Hardcore raiders in their T3 or the few no-lifes or cheaters who had HWL/GM gear 3-shotting everyone else with impugnity.

 

It's not a matter of opinion, man, it's MATH.

 

Sorry for cutting out the rest of your post, but I wanted to comment just on this part, and explain why what is say is true, but the solution provided is completely backwards.

 

The bolded part -- This is the current problem we are in, because BioWare decided to make gear the sole version of end-game progression. You eloquently outline the problem we need to solve, but the "solution" you and BioWare present introduces an other, bigger problem for PvP -- making it extremely inaccessible.

 

As far as the rest of your post:

 

If you want to make it so PvEers cannot bring their gear, that by BioWare's design decisions will increase need to increase in power exponentially, you don't make a PvP stat that requires anyone that has not spent any time PvPing to be slaughtered for a day/week/month until they have suicided or AFKed their way into statistical-competitiveness.

 

What you should do is introduce a PvE Stat, that separates PvE gear from PvP gear, because, you know, that is the problem we defined. This PvE stat can do EXACTLY what Expertise does now, increase damage, healing, and defense, but in Operations/Flashpoints. Now, as far as PvE gear progression is concerned, you just increase the amount of Expertise on the gear between tiers to compensate for the higher health-pools/more damage a new-tier raid boss does. The rest of the stats on the gear will remain the same, so an example would be:

 

PvE Helm Tier 1:

+100 Endurance

+100 Strength

+75 Crit

+25 Surge

+25 Expertise

 

PvE Helm Tier 2:

+100 Endurance

+100 Strength

+75 Crit

+25 Surge

+50 Expertise

 

etc.

 

To reiterate, this fulfills the need for PvE gear to get better as tiers progress. Now, let me describe how this minor change integrates with PvP.

 

Having itemization work this way allows PvP gear to have the same stats as PvE gear, minus Expertise. PvP gear can also progress in Tiers along with PvE gear, not by increasing its stats, but by introducing new looks. Now you have achieved a system that

 

1. Allows PvE gear to progress to meet harder tier requirements

 

2. Makes it so PvE gear is not better than PvP gear in PvP

 

3. Makes it so PvP gear is not better than PvE gear in PvE (which consequentially makes it so players have to progress through previous tiers if they have only PvPed and wanted to PvE, thus increasing the longevity of previous Operation content)

 

4. And most important, it promotes a competitive and accessible PvP environment.

 

Hopefully you and others that feel that having a PvP stat is a necessity can be open-minded enough to eat crow and realize a PvP stat is NOT the answer -- rather a PvE stat is a better alternate solution to what we have now.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Kryptorchid

[dcgregorya]

You need to bear in mind that the difference between bolstered level 12's and 50's is a very large one. The difference between biochem 50's (right now, prior to 1.1) and non-biochem is a very large one. The difference based purely on expertise is a comparitively very small one - especially after you get past the first week and have a few pieces yourself.

 

Really the much bigger PVP problem was 50 vs 20 and besides that, individual class/faction imbalances and issues with cover, ravage/master strike and other skills activating properly. Champ gear vs commendation gear @ 50 is a skill-mitigatable difference that is short term in nature.

 

Also, regarding battlemaster gear - you cannot get that from PVP farming - only from dailies. So your real issue would have to be people power leveling to 50 to get more weekly's and dailies than you. A full set of champ gear is like a week unless you're horrendously unlucky and that should change a lot with how the bags are changing in 1.1.

[netskink]

Sorry for cutting out the rest of your post, but I wanted to comment just on this part, and explain why what is say is true, but the solution provided is completely backwards.

 

<stuff snipped>

 

Hello

 

That is an involved and interesting read, but you missed my point. If you are spending time playing the game and enjoy all aspects of the game, what is wrong with one set of gear?

 

i.e. if you spend time gathering/crafting, you get gear which can be used in pvp or pve? If you spend time doing pvp why not have gear which could be used to pve? Likewise for pve.

 

It seems that once you craft to max there is more benefit, so why craft gear to begin with?

 

If you spend time doing pvp, you can only pvp and never pve. And considering the disparity of gear to valor already, then the only way you will ever be competitive in pvp is to be carried by an existing guild. Ditto for pve.

 

If you are casual and do not want to be a slave to a guild its game over once you reach max level. You will be camped in pvp, you will not be chosen for raids, you can not make gear or quest for it on your own.

[Kryptorchid]

Hello

 

That is an involved and interesting read, but you missed my point. If you are spending time playing the game and enjoy all aspects of the game, what is wrong with one set of gear?

 

i.e. if you spend time gathering/crafting, you get gear which can be used in pvp or pve? If you spend time doing pvp why not have gear which could be used to pve? Likewise for pve.

 

It seems that once you craft to max there is more benefit, so why craft gear to begin with?

 

If you spend time doing pvp, you can only pvp and never pve. And considering the disparity of gear to valor already, then the only way you will ever be competitive in pvp is to be carried by an existing guild. Ditto for pve.

 

If you are casual and do not want to be a slave to a guild its game over once you reach max level. You will be camped in pvp, you will not be chosen for raids, you can not make gear or quest for it on your own.

 

I get your perspective, and it is one that I share; however, given the design decisions BioWare has made, my proposed solution was meant to fit what I see as their intentions, and is why I said it was "a solution" rather than "the solution."

 

I proposed a system back in 2008 and in the beta forums that completely took the progression away from gear, making gear a tool for customizing your character and build, and focused end-game progression on PvP/PvE Perks. I don't feel like rehashing that here, but I can tell you, it would achieve a system where you could use any gear in any type of gameplay, but alas, it fell on deaf ears.

[netskink]

Hi again,

 

Interesting. I know you can not WIN a mmo, but I wonder if I am wasting my time. The fun is rapidly diminishing.

 

John

[TurboCoward]

Wow. This is the most involved thread i've seen yet. I very much agree with Sandtrout's point that in City of Heroes there were costume pieces and trophies that you could sport to demonstrate an accomplishment, and that it didn't have to be a grind of better gear so you can take on the harder thing so you can get better gear. Perhaps that's what this game is, but that's very Myth of Sysyphus. I played City for about a year, and I really dug that they rewarded you the same way they reward Superbowl champs: with a trophy. Although I'm sure I'm in the minority there.

 

I too hated Expertise, as it seemed to indulge a sort of superman fantasy over the spirit of competition, but I'm really glad I've read this thread, despite plowing through the overwhelming arrogance of a few, as well as a quote on the first page that made me laugh (most people like to quote those trusted for their insight, or at least the literate), as it explained to me there was precedence in older games where the perpetually improving raid gear ruined pvp, and now expertise makes alot more sense. But I think this has led some to believe that the people who don't like expertise are all pve-ers who want this advantage, which isn't the case. I love to PVP, but I don't want it to feel like an RPG. That should be the realm of PvE, and PvP should feel more like a sport to me. I realize that isn't the case and I might be **** out of luck, but that's where I'm coming from. I like to compete, and I don't like winning if it doesn't feel competitive or if I had a bull **** advantage. So I don't want steroids in the form of special gear to compete with those on steroids, only to crush those who aren't. So if the point of expertise is to counter pve raiders ruining pvp by making pve gear necessary to compete, and not to provide a handicap for being a veteran, which I find counter-intuitive as hell, why not put an armour, hitpoint, and stat cap on anyone who enters a warzone, thus making it a fair fight even if some raid-god steps in. A performance stat (Avg. kills, avg. dmg, avg. medals etc.) that would rank you with other players on a leaderboard and give you a title based on your percentile sounds alot more satisfying to me than simply earning my steroids so I can hang with the other roid-freaks and dunk on the school children. Again, I get I'm probably very much alone here as I think most people want to see their characters progress and grow stronger, not cap off and play for a title. As a guy pointed out a bit earlier, this is an mmoRPG.

[netskink]

I don't understand why my point is so obtuese.

 

Why have a difference in gear specialty for pve or pvp at all? If you spend x hours of time to get level 3 pve gear why not have an equivalent set of gear obtainable by x hours in pvp or crafting?

 

In my opinion its more of a challenge to respond to unpredictable player mechanics than scripted boss mechanics. However, with gear rewarded from doing pvp, you are out of luck to try pve.