Expertise is a giant mistake, didn't you learn from Trion?

[SandTrout]

You said you enjoy pvp then you said you don't enjoy pvp.

 

You should be playing a fps and not mmog pvp given your desire to always be equal.

When did I say I don't enjoy PvP? I said that I don't want to be forced to play exclusively the PvP content because my gear doesn't work for PvE.

 

If you want things to always be unequal, play PvE. Its there so you can curb-stomp things.

Edited January 14, 2012 by SandTrout

[Tyestor]

I've given the explanation in 3-4 of the other whine threads about it and am not going to do it again here because I am tired of reciting it.

 

Nice dodge there bro. So what you're saying is that you have no explanation yet you're arguing for expertise for no reason? Nice.

[RealAeiouy]

Why are you playing an MMO? PVP in an MMO is not truly competitive as it will never be balanced in the sense that when you enter a WZ's you are not in an even playing field.

 

Thats like saying I want to be able to PVE in greens and should not have to grind gear so that I can do that nightmare lvl raid.

 

The best they can do to keep it fair is to have two sets of gear PVE and PVP and draw those distinctions so they never mix.

 

It is worse than that. In Pve you have to be succesful. In pvp you just have to show up. The threshold for pvp gear acquisition is so low it is mind boggling people are complaining about it.

[Smashbrother]

Oh great, now this has denigrated to the age old "PVP is harder than PVE" argument and "All PVP players are good at PVE or vice versa."

 

Sigh.

 

I've played with some PVPers who were on the top .1% of teams, tournament players (winners in some cases), who were AWFUL at PVE.

 

I hate to break the news to you, but they are two completely different environments that require totally different mindsets (novel concept that they would require different gear, too.)

 

You can throw around the "PVE is scripted" argument all you want but it doesn't change the fact that even the best of PVE players take hundreds of attempts at the same encounter before coming together and performing it correctly. That argument is almost like saying a dance is choreographed and as such anyone can do it flawlessly because its so simplistic. Its really not.

 

Consider PVE as choreographed dance and PVP as interpretive freestyle dance. PVE has a set pattern that you must learn and practice and execute flawlessly to succeed at. The other you have flexibility, but still follow a rhythm with a certain level of predictability and restriction on how you can flow from one thing to the next. PVP is just as scripted as PVE in many ways, but a large part of that is learning to anticipate and react properly.

 

All that being said, even when raiding with guilds in the top 1-5 slots, there were some PVE'ers who I raided with that I wouldn't trust against a Pug in a battleground or Arena. At the same time, there were some who were simply exceptional players in both regards and I would happily have them with me.

 

You're ignoring the fact that something that is scripted/choreographed becomes easier and easier the more you do it. Yes, raiding a new boss is difficult for a couple of weeks when nobody is really sure what they're supposed to do. But you'll get to that point where raids become farm status once people get more gear and they know the fights.

 

PvP on the other will never reach that "farm status" point in good premade vs. premades. The matches will always be intense and never easy. This won't ever change, whereas raiding always gets easier over time.

 

There is a reason why there's no competitive sports tournaments against scripted encounters in games or real life. It doesn't take much skill. Playing against other people of equal or greater skills will always be harder and take more skill.

[MorgonKara]

It is worse than that. In Pve you have to be succesful. In pvp you just have to show up. The threshold for pvp gear acquisition is so low it is mind boggling people are complaining about it.

 

Yeah the Warzone exploiters prove that I think. Hardcore early access PvPers definitely got an advantage by being able to farm newbs to get geared up at lvl 50, but what is sad is that it's not much more of an advantage than the exploiter that queue up for warzones and then wait them out.

Edited January 14, 2012 by MorgonKara

[MorgonKara]

You're ignoring the fact that something that is scripted/choreographed becomes easier and easier the more you do it. Yes, raiding a new boss is difficult for a couple of weeks when nobody is really sure what they're supposed to do. But you'll get to that point where raids become farm status once people get more gear and they know the fights.

 

PvP on the other will never reach that "farm status" point in good premade vs. premades. The matches will always be intense and never easy. This won't ever change, whereas raiding always gets easier over time.

 

There is a reason why there's no competitive sports tournaments against scripted encounters in games or real life. It doesn't take much skill. Playing against other people of equal or greater skills will always be harder and take more skill.

 

I agree but warzones reward even the losers and the exploiters. Just saying.

[Guntsu]

When did I say I don't enjoy PvP? I said that I don't want to be forced to play exclusively the PvP content because my gear doesn't work for PvE.

 

If you want things to always be unequal, play PvE. Its there so you can curb-stomp things.

 

You seem to want an equal bar in both PVP and PVE but thats not the type of game your playing and your arguing for something that is not going to happen.

 

The main draw of MMO's is char advancement and this MMO does that through gear...thats why PVP in an MMO will never be truly competitive.

 

You should play a game like CoD where things are truly at a lvl playign field

Edited January 14, 2012 by Guntsu

[Xilrasis]

You're ignoring the fact that something that is scripted/choreographed becomes easier and easier the more you do it. Yes, raiding a new boss is difficult for a couple of weeks when nobody is really sure what they're supposed to do. But you'll get to that point where raids become farm status once people get more gear and they know the fights.

 

PvP on the other will never reach that "farm status" point in good premade vs. premades. The matches will always be intense and never easy. This won't ever change, whereas raiding always gets easier over time.

 

There is a reason why there's no competitive sports tournaments against scripted encounters in games or real life. It doesn't take much skill. Playing against other people of equal or greater skills will always be harder and take more skill.

 

I think you're confusing repetition making things easier with the gear acquired week after week of clearing stuff making things easier.

 

Sure, you'll more consistently execute -- but it doesn't make it "easier" to do so.

[Draemos]

There should be NO special stat for 50 pvp, it makes no sense. In every old pvp mmo that's ever came out they didn't need special stats, it was about your build, and skill. That's enough, only bad's require special stats that put them at an extreme advantage. Nobody else does.

 

Trion made a GIANT MISTAKE with Valor, and they admit it! They tried to remove it, then they tried to add it to PVE gear, then they decided 'screw it' and tossed the same valor on ALL pvp gear! Essentially they realize any special stat people can 'grind out' in PVP places a tremendous imbalance into the game that isn't easily fixed.

 

I foresee a huge problem with the 50's bracket when new 50's enter it and become 'food' for people that have high expertise they got from GRINDING LOW LEVELS, while the new 50's won't have this luxury. They will be slaughtered. Therefore, choose your solution;

 

1) Expertise needs to be removed.

2) Expertise needs to be added to lower level pvp gear.

3) Entry-Level 50's PVP gear needs to be added that has expertise, and is purchasable with Warzone Coms prior to reaching 50.

 

Take your pick, one of the three has to happen or the noob farming won't stop with the 50's bracket. If someone needs their own special stat to compete in pvp then they can just give up pvping. There is little logic in these 'special' stats, and they only serve to cause more imbalances.

 

Unless it was removed for some stupid reason...Every class already has access to a blue PvP set with expertise on it at 50. The vendor is in your capital city. I think they probably need to lower the price of it abit, or maybe even sell it for credits instead of commendations... but it's there regardless.

 

Not having PvP specific gear is terrible, since it makes the hardcore raiders kings of every aspect of the game. That's a great way to piss off everyone else.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Draemos

[Jest]

Expertise is a necessary evil.

 

No it's not. A PvP stat that reduces dmg done is a necessary evil. Expertise doesn't do that at all.

[Baromega]

No it's not. A PvP stat that reduces dmg done is a necessary evil. Expertise doesn't do that at all.

 

I'm honestly not sure if you're trolling or not.

 

On the off chance that you're not, expertise DECREASES damage done to you by other players and INCREASES the damage you do to them. On top of that it also INCREASES the healing effect you have on friendly targets.

 

For two people fighting in full Expertise gear, you can see how it balances itself out. However, someone with no expertise fighting someone in full expertise and the outcome is practically predetermined. And therein lies the problem; people who PvP now will continue to PvP because they like it, and stop when they get bored. However, people who decide to join the PvP community too late get completely destroyed because they're so behind the curve. No community can survive if more people are leaving it than coming in.

[Coinkee]

Ok Here you go.

 

If you want the gear to be equal. You will henceforth have a 7 day lockout on ALL your warzones once you have completed it and be unable to upgrade your gear during that lockout.

 

Sounds as ridiculous as you asking for equivalent gear for 2 completely different aspects of the game.

 

/thread

[Baromega]

Ok Here you go.

 

If you want the gear to be equal. You will henceforth have a 7 day lockout on ALL your warzones once you have completed it and be unable to upgrade your gear during that lockout.

 

Sounds as ridiculous as you asking for equivalent gear for 2 completely different aspects of the game.

 

/thread

 

If you want to get technical, the Ilum and PvP quest that give you 3 bags each (which a lot of the time don't even give gear) can only be done once a week. Then there are 2 dailies that each give one bag, and I guess that would compare to the one day lockout on heroic flashpoints. All that leaves are the bags you can grind out and buy, which I guess amounts to the gear a PvE player may get simply from a non-last boss drop or even a random drop.

[mattkingsw]

I think what they need to do is scale expertise by valor rank.

 

10 valor = 100 expertise

15 valor = 150 exp

on and on, at 50 it would be 500 expertise.

 

Don't make it tied to gear, just make it based on how much you pvp as an ascending tier.

[RealAeiouy]

I think what they need to do is scale expertise by valor rank.

 

10 valor = 100 expertise

15 valor = 150 exp

on and on, at 50 it would be 500 expertise.

 

Don't make it tied to gear, just make it based on how much you pvp as an ascending tier.

 

How is that any different?

[Coinkee]

If you want to get technical, the Ilum and PvP quest that give you 3 bags each (which a lot of the time don't even give gear) can only be done once a week. Then there are 2 dailies that each give one bag, and I guess that would compare to the one day lockout on heroic flashpoints. All that leaves are the bags you can grind out and buy, which I guess amounts to the gear a PvE player may get simply from a non-last boss drop or even a random drop.

 

But can you solo those heroics? Can you solo a lvl 50 flashpoint?

 

I got full t1 pvp gear in a day. Soloing. It isn't hard if you know that winning or losing isnt the end all be all. Just pad your stats and it's a waterfall of comms.

 

He is asking for pvp gear which CAN BE SOLOD quite easily as its JUST a grind to be the same as Raid gear that you not only need a raid for. But a raid of non-tards.

 

One is a solo time investment. One is a skill/time/schedule/people bla bla etc etc investment.

 

There NEEDS to be a distinction between the 2.

 

Getting butthurt cuz you get *** handed to you while youre STILL EARNING your valor/comms is ridiculous. Be happy they have an AFK defacto that if you stand and auto jump you get nothing feature.

 

Come the lvl 50 bracket your lowbies won't have to deal with expertise at all. the only thing BW did wrong was wait this long to implement it.

[Zarthorn]

Easiest way to solve this.

 

Make centurion armor buyable with normal commendations.

 

This way noone who decides to pvp will suffer once they get to 50 since they should be able grab a pvp set even as a fresh 50.

[AMKSED]

So people HAVE to PvE in order to be competitive in PvP then?

[Zombifikation]

But can you solo those heroics? Can you solo a lvl 50 flashpoint?

 

I got full t1 pvp gear in a day. Soloing. It isn't hard if you know that winning or losing isnt the end all be all. Just pad your stats and it's a waterfall of comms.

 

He is asking for pvp gear which CAN BE SOLOD quite easily as its JUST a grind to be the same as Raid gear that you not only need a raid for. But a raid of non-tards.

 

One is a solo time investment. One is a skill/time/schedule/people bla bla etc etc investment.

 

There NEEDS to be a distinction between the 2.

 

Getting butthurt cuz you get *** handed to you while youre STILL EARNING your valor/comms is ridiculous. Be happy they have an AFK defacto that if you stand and auto jump you get nothing feature.

 

Come the lvl 50 bracket your lowbies won't have to deal with expertise at all. the only thing BW did wrong was wait this long to implement it.

 

Bingo. You pretty much nailed it.

[Thiussat]

Trion made a GIANT MISTAKE with Valor, and they admit it! They tried to remove it, then they tried to add it to PVE gear, then they decided 'screw it' and tossed the same valor on ALL pvp gear! Essentially they realize any special stat people can 'grind out' in PVP places a tremendous imbalance into the game that isn't easily fixed.

 

They never "tried" to remove valor or add it to PvE gear. Think about it, if they designed the game there is no "try." They can do what they want. What they did was normalize valor across all PvP gear after all the forum whiners made incessant threads about how unfair it was. Instead of grinding their way up the PvP ladder (like the rest of us had to do), they wanted instant gratification. Now R1 gear has the same valor as R8 gear. But, guess what? People STILL COMPLAIN. Now they claim R8 gear has too much of an offensive advantage and they want it toned down.

 

People are never happy in MMO's. Hopefully BW has learned that much.

 

I foresee a huge problem with the 50's bracket when new 50's enter it and become 'food' for people that have high expertise they got from GRINDING LOW LEVELS, while the new 50's won't have this luxury. They will be slaughtered. Therefore, choose your solution;

 

1) Expertise needs to be removed.

2) Expertise needs to be added to lower level pvp gear.

3) Entry-Level 50's PVP gear needs to be added that has expertise, and is purchasable with Warzone Coms prior to reaching 50.

 

So according to your plan, "entry-level" PvP gear would be exactly the same as champ and BM gear. Therefore I ask, why have PvP gear at all?

 

I am sorry if you're too lazy to rank your way up, but shut up and do it like the rest of us had to do or simply quit the game. We all would be much happier.

 

Take your pick, one of the three has to happen or the noob farming won't stop with the 50's bracket. If someone needs their own special stat to compete in pvp then they can just give up pvping. There is little logic in these 'special' stats, and they only serve to cause more imbalances.

 

As I and others have explained a million times, if you don't have expertise, then raid gear becomes BiS for PvP, which means anyone who hasn't cleared the latest and greatest raid, will get pwned by the raid progression guilds. Is that fair to you?

[Migrayn]

Expertise is a necessary evil.

 

If you guys would all quit crying about it for a few seconds and contemplate how removing the stat would effect overall balance and longevity of the game, you might figure out why every major MMO in the last 3-4 years is using a variation of it.

 

You guys are just like my employees who come to me and complain about why we do things a certain way where I work. They get all worked up, then I explain the bigger picture and they say "oh, I never thought of that".

 

I think George Bush said it best as he was leaving the White House: "When you know what I know, you will make the same decisions".

 

Please elaborate o great one as to how its neccessary. A real pvper should not need a 10-20% boost to defeat other players. Raid gear people wont stomp on pvpers if they just put equal stats on pvp gear.

 

When everyone only had level 20 and 40 pvp gear with no expertise things were fair. Now no one stands any chance at all against a full expertise player.

 

Their is no real reason for expertise other then since prior games had it for must.

[EternalFinality]

Its no sense of entitelment its how this MMO works, its gear driven and if you cant get over that I cant help you because its part of the core game design

 

 

 

Says you...but if you dont think gear is a driving factor then your lost

 

Where did I say gear wasn't a driving factor? You were the one who said it was a problem only because it was *easier* to acquire in one fashion. That has nothing to do with gear as a driving factor and everything to do with your ego. That's not gear is not a driving factor - that's being BETTER than others as a driving factor, and that's just pathetic.

 

You should play a game like CoD where things are truly at a lvl playign field

 

Why switch genres? I think you mean something like Dota/LoL/HoN. And yes, Dota has better PvP than TOR.

Edited January 14, 2012 by EternalFinality

[Thiussat]

Caused by poor design decisions on Blizzard's part by not allowing PvP players equal access to said T3 gear. Allow access to the same gear, and PvE players have no advantage, and PvP players have no reason to complain. Let's try learning from past mistakes instead of repeating them.

 

The problem with that idea, as has been explained before, is that there is no way to guarantee that the PvP progression path and the PvE progression path are exactly the same difficulty and take exactly the same amount of time to clear.

 

Therefore, people will figure out "hey it is easier to get the gear from PvP, so lets go PvP for our raid gear instead of actually going up the raid progression ladder." And vice versa. Therefore, it makes more sense to simply have 2 different gear sets with two totally different purposes so that all the other variables are removed. If you want to be better at PvP, you go PvP. If you want to be better at raiding, you go clear raids. Simple.

 

The only people who complain about this are casuals who don't want to put in the time or raiders who think they should be able to pwn that one WZ they play a week.

 

I find it humorous that the only people who complain about this are the raiding guilds. They feel entitled to be able to come into PvP and have a gear advantage. They don't want to do any serious PvP, but when they get a whim to go do some on rare occasions, they feel it is unfair that people who PvP constantly have better gear.

 

You never hear PvP'ers complain that their gear wont work in raids. It's always the other way around.

[Migrayn]

But can you solo those heroics? Can you solo a lvl 50 flashpoint?

 

I got full t1 pvp gear in a day. Soloing. It isn't hard if you know that winning or losing isnt the end all be all. Just pad your stats and it's a waterfall of comms.

 

He is asking for pvp gear which CAN BE SOLOD quite easily as its JUST a grind to be the same as Raid gear that you not only need a raid for. But a raid of non-tards.

 

One is a solo time investment. One is a skill/time/schedule/people bla bla etc etc investment.

 

There NEEDS to be a distinction between the 2.

 

Getting butthurt cuz you get *** handed to you while youre STILL EARNING your valor/comms is ridiculous. Be happy they have an AFK defacto that if you stand and auto jump you get nothing feature.

 

Come the lvl 50 bracket your lowbies won't have to deal with expertise at all. the only thing BW did wrong was wait this long to implement it.

 

Im sorry but a scripted pve raid does not compare to unpredictable pvp with other real people. People spend just as much time grinding warzones as people that run raids over and over.

 

Im sure they could figure a balance of pvp time/wins that ca. Equate to pve raids. It makes more sence for the gear to be equal in stats. If you need expertise to have an edge over someone that only raids the. Maybe you need more practice.

[Migrayn]

The problem with that idea, as has been explained before, is that there is no way to guarantee that the PvP progression path and the PvE progression path are exactly the same difficulty and take exactly the same amount of time to clear.

 

Therefore, people will figure out "hey it is easier to get the gear from PvP, so lets go PvP for our raid gear instead of actually going up the raid progression ladder." And vice versa. Therefore, it makes more sense to simply have 2 different gear sets with two totally different purposes so that all the other variables are removed. If you want to be better at PvP, you go PvP. If you want to be better at raiding, you go clear raids. Simple.

 

The only people who complain about this are casuals who don't want to put in the time or raiders who think they should be able to pwn that one WZ they play a week.

 

I find it humorous that the only people who complain about this are the raiding guilds. They feel entitled to be able to come into PvP and have a gear advantage. They don't want to do any serious PvP, but when they get a whim to go do some on rare occasions, they feel it is unfair that people who PvP constantly have better gear.

 

You never hear PvP'ers complain that their gear wont work in raids. It's always the other way around.[/iQUOTE]

 

I find it funny that those in battlemaster gear now are afraid other players might have equal stats. I find it humorous that only geared pvpers need an advantage to win over pvers.

 

Their should just be two different paths to the same stat gear. If it takes 2 hours to clear a raid to get an item make it take 5 hours of pvp or many wins to get equal pvp gear. It you have to win to get gear the. Teams thatwork well (just like a raid group) will get gear faster then thoze that do not work well (pug raid)