Expertise is a giant mistake, didn't you learn from Trion?

[Killadrix]

Only if PvP and PvE gear are non-equivalent.

 

It's not possible to make them 100% equivalent, and therein lies one of the major issues.

 

How do you propose to balance the speed at which someone can grind PVP gear through Warzones/Open world PVP (keeping in mind some people play them 16 hours a day, and some people play with 1-2 hours a week), and people relying on a random drop chance off a boss + winning the subsequent roll.

 

Making PVE and PVP gear equivalent in stats = no problem.

 

Making PVE and PVP gear equivalent in progression = huge problem.

[Gorto]

Remove expertise and a fully geared players HP,Crit,Surge and DPS will still be way higher than a fresh 50. The fresh 50s are still gonna get rolled.

 

All expertise does is put a barrier between PvE and PvP.

 

Dont have good gear you are gonna get rolled expertise or not.

[Corpsevapor]

As raid tiers progress, and difficulty, perforce, progresses, PvE gear will scale exponentially - it has to, to keep up with bosses that might literally have 2-3x as much health as an entry level raid boss. At the same time, player health pools simply DO NOT scale thusly, and CANNOT, due to the way items are built.

 

 

Sounds like they need a PVE stat not a PVP one.

 

Just think if expertise was for pve it would make alot more sense then as a gating mechanic for pvp. Bosses get more health and damage which means player need more armor, more damage, and more healing.

 

Expertise is the perfect PVE stat.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Corpsevapor

[Swaay]

But.... why? What is better - to have a unified community that is able to enjoy thoroughly all of the games content, of separated stratas?

 

 

So here's the thing man, this was already tried. There was no resilence when wow launched (hell, there was no pvp for that matter). They tried just putting in the Warzones for fun, giving rankings that really didn't matter for nothing more than bragging rights etc.

 

This did not unite the community, in fact quite the opposite. The forums were full of people crying and complaining about the hard core raiders having all the advantage. The same arguements your making, I only have X time to play, I dont live to raid, I have a life etc etc etc

 

PvP stats were introduced for a reason, the other way failed.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Swaay

[Corpsevapor]

So here's the thing man, this was already tried. There was no resilence when wow launched (hell, there was no pvp for that matter). They tried just putting in the Warzones for fun, giving rankings that really didn't matter for nothing more than bragging rights etc.

 

This did not unite the community, in fact quite the opposite. The forums were full of people crying and complaining about the hard core raiders having all the advantage. The same arguements your making, I only have X time to play, I dont live to raid, I have a life etc etc etc

 

PvP stats were introduced for a reason, the other way failed.

 

They should of instead put in a PVE stat that they would scale with teirs instead of raiseing all the other stats and creating a gear imbalance.

[SandTrout]

So here's the thing man, this was already tried. There was no resilence when wow launched (hell, there was no pvp for that matter). They tried just putting in the Warzones for fun, giving rankings that really didn't matter for nothing more than bragging rights etc.

 

This did not unite the community, in fact quite the opposite. The forums were full of people crying and complaining about the hard core raiders having all the advantage. The same arguements your making, I only have X time to play, I dont live to raid, I have a life etc etc etc

 

PvP stats were introduced for a reason, the other way failed.

This was because Blizzard was stupid with their gear distribution. Another person's stupidity does not excuse your from repeating their mistakes.

 

PvP stat doesn't help against hardcore PvP grinders any more than it helps against PvE raiders. Casual gamers still get screwed because they don't have the top-end gear that's only accessable by valor 60 PvP players that have been able to dedicate a couple of weeks of playtime. Casual gamers don't have the time to dedicate to that much grinding in PvP any more than they did for PvE.

 

The problem isn't solved, a new one is created.

 

@Killadrix If you're worried about progression speed of PvP gear compared to PvE gear, the numbers can be adjusted with relative ease to achieve whatever progression rate is desired.

 

Example: quadruple the commendations cost of PvP gear and quarter the rate at which commendations are awarded.

 

Result: PvP progression is 1/16th as fast as it was, and slow enough that the raiders don't feel gimped.

 

Naturally, I just pulled those numbers out of my ***, but its just math, as another poster stated. If people are progressing too quickly in PvP, adjust the numbers and the math will sort itself. If people aren't getting adequate equipment in PvE, adjust the drop-rate numbers or commendation awards to fit the desired time frame.

 

Simply because 1 game was successful in spite of it's PvP system, which is incredibly flawed, doesn't mean that all games should follow its example in every aspect.

[sildoor]

lol... in vanilla wow my pvp group would encounter t3 groups and slaughter them because we were more organised and better at pvp.. the gear didn't make that big of a difference.. sorry but you are just wrong on that point. and most of our group were a mix of t1 and pvp gear. alot in pvp blues with some t1 and t2. if you were rickrolled by t3 groups.. it's probebly because you were pugging.. or your group was bad.

 

but say that a t3 group are as "godlike" as you and your team claime to be .. then they would rapeface.jpg your group would they know? if u dont belive me .. take a look at the stats on t3 compard to blues and t1-t2 .. the gap where in that time hugh ...

[TheStratovarian]

Kheldor... If only they would. If only they would, Daoc had quite a bit right in pvp, and its never been done right yet since. Ah well.

 

If bioware would simply use armor for secondary stats, the surge, crit, defense rating, shield, alarcity. So that, well, look at what you have, everyone is the same for their class at 50, outside the stat talent boost (Which there in makes a choice talent wise from the cookie cutter options) And that with armor boosting those secondaries, you have much more diversity in how you approach your class. Are you a massive crit fiend, or one that with a lower crit chance, but outright destroys when you can land one.

 

Orange gear would let you keep the aesthetics of your look the way you want while offering a means of keeping up to date still. This prevents also the naysaying as well for pve/pvp difference of scaling up, with brackets especially. If bioware kept things in a 5-10 range for brackets, pvp would be a blast, especially above, there would be for both sides, only a little bit of difference, and how you play as a team is everything, if you have more tanks than they do, you can push more aggressively, though if they have more healers, they can afford to let damage add up faster.

 

And finally, if you remove the trauma debuff, you teach the biggest issue, kill the medic, kill the medic, and kill the medic. This encourages guard/taunt, keeps the medic with folks, or risks being hit with stealthers who should be going after them first. Someone with healing focus talent wise, is the biggest threat to your teams winning. If you dont have a healer, a dedicated one, you have a few class wise options that let you play more into having at least, someone that can heal in combat, if slower. This encourages healing variety too. Are you a high crit/surge healer, or a speedy/strong one? You can vary the styles of what you have as a max, because armor itself is the gate here. Because your main stats are set by level alone, its armor that gives your character focus along with talent lines, and it lets folks customize their look the way they want.

[IceManLoneWolf]

How about we just make gear in PVP (warzones anyway) a non-issue? I understand the reason for gear progression in PVE, but it doesn't make sense in PVP at least not in the traditionally executed way.

 

I mean is it really fun for someone fully decked out in PVP gear to fight someone without a bit of PVP gear or even gear in general? If you want to keep the current type PVP gear progression then you have to make it like PVE where you are only doing instances for your gear level which in PVP would mean you are competing against people wearing comparable PVP gear or maybe with a comparable PVP Ranking or even Valor level.

 

Now it's not a MMO, but look at Team Fortress 2. In it there is a crazy amount of unlockable gera and items. This gear provides alternative benefits, but is not needed in order to compete.

Edited January 14, 2012 by IceManLoneWolf

[Illuziun]

The special stat for PVP makes getting PVP gear another tier of progression. More progression = more time playing the game trying to get the stuff you want.

 

If everything is just geared towards everything, you would alienate the lesser gear paths, like PVE stuff, because one or another is simply better. By making a PVP stat, you make the PVP gear demanding for PVP, while the PVE stuff is better for PVE, thus providing two paths of progression.

[SandTrout]

The special stat for PVP makes getting PVP gear another tier of progression. More progression = more time playing the game trying to get the stuff you want.

 

If everything is just geared towards everything, you would alienate the lesser gear paths, like PVE stuff, because one or another is simply better. By making a PVP stat, you make the PVP gear demanding for PVP, while the PVE stuff is better for PVE, thus providing two paths of progression.

 

And cutting yourself off from the other aspect of the game for no other reason than because WoW did it.

Edited January 14, 2012 by SandTrout

[carbocat]

There should be NO special stat for 50 pvp, it makes no sense. In every old pvp mmo that's ever came out they didn't need special stats, it was about your build, and skill. That's enough, only bad's require special stats that put them at an extreme advantage. Nobody else does.

 

Trion made a GIANT MISTAKE with Valor, and they admit it! They tried to remove it, then they tried to add it to PVE gear, then they decided 'screw it' and tossed the same valor on ALL pvp gear! Essentially they realize any special stat people can 'grind out' in PVP places a tremendous imbalance into the game that isn't easily fixed.

 

I foresee a huge problem with the 50's bracket when new 50's enter it and become 'food' for people that have high expertise they got from GRINDING LOW LEVELS, while the new 50's won't have this luxury. They will be slaughtered. Therefore, choose your solution;

 

1) Expertise needs to be removed.

2) Expertise needs to be added to lower level pvp gear.

3) Entry-Level 50's PVP gear needs to be added that has expertise, and is purchasable with Warzone Coms prior to reaching 50.

 

Take your pick, one of the three has to happen or the noob farming won't stop with the 50's bracket. If someone needs their own special stat to compete in pvp then they can just give up pvping. There is little logic in these 'special' stats, and they only serve to cause more imbalances.

 

Plain and simple NO!

[Guntsu]

This was because Blizzard was stupid with their gear distribution. Another person's stupidity does not excuse your from repeating their mistakes.

 

PvP stat doesn't help against hardcore PvP grinders any more than it helps against PvE raiders. Casual gamers still get screwed because they don't have the top-end gear that's only accessable by valor 60 PvP players that have been able to dedicate a couple of weeks of playtime. Casual gamers don't have the time to dedicate to that much grinding in PvP any more than they did for PvE.

 

This MMO is already very casual and easy in order to get gear, if your a casual player you will be at a disadvantage plain and simple.

 

Players that put more into the game will get more out of the game thats a basic tenant for an MMO.

 

MMO's by design are a time sink, and the longer they can keep you invested the better.

[Xilrasis]

I don't understand some people. I really don't.

 

Killadrix has offered MULTIPLE reasons why expertise is not only a convenience, but a necessity. He's not offering them as individual opinions. They're a PACKAGE. You put them all together and the end result is expertise.

 

Instead, some of you are trying to pick apart flaws in individual points he has made without actually piecing together all of the parts. In nearly every order of life, everything has a foundation with multiple variables that have to be intricately balanced in order for it to function. For a car to function, you need more than just the engine. You need a proper frame, adequate power to weight ratio, protection for the driver (you do consider this part of a car's function, right?), adequate traction devices (aka tires), axles, differentials, etc. The argument most of you are making is like saying you don't like the way the car handles and you switch out the wheels and tires without understanding that your suspension, weight, motor, and frame all have a drastic effect on the end result.

 

Expertise is, unfortunately, a necessary evil. With the way the majority of games scale (Read: In a fashion that allows a streamlined content design system), you need to create a separation of the two. Do you realize how difficult it is to balance one, much less two environments based off of the same engine? Now try balancing them when they function from the same gear as well. Expertise is a method of the designers being able to limit PVP growth while allowing expansion on PVE growth. It also allows them to scale (read buff/nerf) items in one facet of the game without affecting both. It drastically eases the development process.

 

Expertise is also necessary due to the unfortunate fact that the "carrot on a stick" method of improving your character is by far the most effective. Why do they need to increase damage/hp/etc of boss encounters instead of just adding increasingly complex and technical mechanics? Because simply rewarding players with immaterial, non-substantial rewards only allows for a finite, and quite honestly a boring, level of progression. It also allows some separation of the rate of progression from the "hardcore" and "casual" gamers. I.E., the hardcore can farm the hell out of a raid, gear up, and push the limits of the next set of encounters immediately by throwing themselves at it hundreds of times until they commit the encounter to muscle memory and shatter the miniscule margin of error. On the other end of the spectrum you have the more "casual" who will slowly gear up through easier encounters, normal modes, and other means and "overpower" the encounter through improved stats and progress over a longer term, just at a later date.

 

People often seem to have a difficult time comprehending that "grinds" (Some are masked better than others) are simply one of the few forms of legitimate hooks for an MMO. Humans are goal based. They (we?) set our sights on a particular shiny object and we strive to reach it at all costs. Once we get there, we swoon over ourselves for a short time before setting a new goal and slogging on. Appreciate the fine level of psychology that goes into designing one of these games instead of pretending you represent the masses of millions who buy into this day in and day out in this billion dollar industry.

 

Next, the people who quote such highly successful games as "City of Heroes" and "Rift", "Age of Conan", "Lord of the Rings: Online" and "Hello Kitty Island Adventure" when armchair developing need to step back and receive a firm clue in their pocket. There is a reason these games tanked or only appealed to niche audiences. Read: They had no driving appeal, very little potential to set actual goals to improve your character, or just plain no end game content. Sure, each one probably had a gem here and there, but chances are BioWare or Blizzard have already taken notice and yanked it for later use.

 

Just about the only bad thing I agree that BioWare has done with expertise is not including it on any lower level gear. Seriously. The level 20/40 sets should have expertise, and the 50 set should be re-introduced.

[Guntsu]

And cutting yourself off from the other aspect of the game for no other reason than because WoW did it.

 

SWTOR's system has built on WoW's original design and if anything made it better, in WoW resil is great but PVE gear still dominates and has ruined entire seasons.

 

The most recent example of this is Vial trinket for rouges or shadowmourne for warriors in WOTLK.

 

PVE gear ruins PVP, this system makes certain that there will be two lines of different gear and devs dont have to worry about the impact of a certain piece of gear if introduced in PVE or PVP.

 

Now if your problem is some people having an advantage over another because they were able to grind their gear up...well welcome to an MMO

Edited January 14, 2012 by Guntsu

[Mysry]

DAoC would like a word with you.

 

They were successful (for their time) until they released a PvE expansion - Trials of Atlantis.

 

Lol, succes is in the eye of the beholder, really DAoC was not nearly as succesful as many make it out to be. I played that craptastic game, the PvP was horribad, gank squads roaming everywhere, complete imbalance, sub-par sub numbers because the majority of MMO players really are not interested in PvP. Let alone RvR, which is surely where you will take your argument next. But hey what do I know, I just play the game. Expertise is a good stat, too bad it's beyond the comprehension of the players that get steamrolled as to why they need it too and should just play the game and stop whining about not being able to win every single match without effort.

[Coinkee]

Once the lvl 50 bracket comes in there is NO expertise in your lower lvl bracket. Once you hit 50. Welcome to the Big Boy Club. Get your *** handed to you for a week then you can have your payback.

 

So you're arguing for a stat to be put on the lower lvl gear that will ultimately just make you come back and whine again for it to be taken out again.

[Cherlin]

If you Remove expertise you unbalance the game... you CAN NOT be the best PvE player with PvP Gear, so why should you be the Best PvP player with PvE gear? why should you be the master of both worlds 1 way and not the other? With Expertise they keep it so that if you want to PvE you have to Start at the bottom raids and work up to better gear, you can just go do Nightmare ops right off the bat, so why should it work the other way? why should Someone who has done everything in PvE be able to go into PvP and start at the top? they shouldn't they need to work their way up... Expertise keeps the Game fair for PvP and PvE players. Neither can be the best of both worlds

[Treebyrn]

Expertise is a necessary evil.

 

If you guys would all quit crying about it for a few seconds and contemplate how removing the stat would effect overall balance and longevity of the game, you might figure out why every major MMO in the last 3-4 years is using a variation of it.

 

You guys are just like my employees who come to me and complain about why we do things a certain way where I work. They get all worked up, then I explain the bigger picture and they say "oh, I never thought of that".

 

I think George Bush said it best as he was leaving the White House: "When you know what I know, you will make the same decisions".

 

I am pretty sure it is you that is short sighted and not seeing the whole picture. If this pvp only stat remains as is... in its current state, there will be no longevity of the game because no-one but the hard core will choose to grind it out. Those who on top will always be on top and those on the bottom will always have an uphill battle (there is no fun in that) unless of course you happen to lose your job and suddenly have a month of free time to grind out warzones. Lets face it there is no fun in grinding out the same warzones day after day and it is exactly what happens in any game that has pvp only gear.

 

The really fun pvp (open world pvp) struggles to succeed because people do not want to partake in it until they have their pvp gear. Some people will just outright quit playing because they do not want to grind and those that don't mind the grind will quit because there is no-one to play with. Pretty much every game that has tried to copy wow's version of pvp is dead or slowly getting there. The only reason wow's pvp is still going is because people have way to much time and effort invested into their characters thus they are a little more willing to continue on with the same old same old grind. Trying to do this from the ground up is a big no no because now people are thinking.... "hmmm every patch that introduces a new tier of gear I am going to have to grind my azz off to stay on top or near the top and heaven help me if my play time is limited for some unknown reason".

 

The fact remains that there are much better ways to make pvp more enjoyable for all not only short term but long term and the first step is by removing the pvp only stat from gear and then code player skills so they do x% less damage against players than they do against npc's. Once this is done then bioware can concentrate on rewarding valor ranks with fun perks (instead of gear, however gear can still be bought with comms). They could also give out titles for x amount of player kills (only in the open world) and such.

 

The bottom line is in order to player vs player you need players and anything that discourages players from participating is a bad thing..... please think long term, months and even years down the road.

 

Imagine 3 months down the road showing off your full BM decked out Sith Sorc to your friends while standing on the fleet station... but this is all you are doing because your warzone que is 1 hour long and there is no one in any of the pvp zones.

[SandTrout]

If you Remove expertise you unbalance the game... you CAN NOT be the best PvE player with PvP Gear, so why should you be the Best PvP player with PvE gear? why should you be the master of both worlds 1 way and not the other? With Expertise they keep it so that if you want to PvE you have to Start at the bottom raids and work up to better gear, you can just go do Nightmare ops right off the bat, so why should it work the other way? why should Someone who has done everything in PvE be able to go into PvP and start at the top? they shouldn't they need to work their way up... Expertise keeps the Game fair for PvP and PvE players. Neither can be the best of both worlds

What would happen, though, if the PvP stats were increased to the PvE set levels?

 

You could compete with the most experienced PvPers with your PvE gear, or try out the high end content operations content with your PvP gear.

 

Everyone only stands to benefit from expertise being removed and PvP/PvE gear unity. PvPers benefit. PvEers benefit. Everyone wins.

[EternalFinality]

I'll just copy paste myself again:

 

The funny thing is Bioware tried to even the playing field for all levels with their bolstering system. This indicates they wanted all people no matter what level they were to have a chance at victory.

 

Then they completely throw it out the window with a PvP stat, and worse, a LAZY implementation of a PvP stat.

 

Expertise is only useful to dominate people who don't have it. It's an increase in damage coupled with a decrease in damage taken, which flatly cancels out against someone with equal amounts. (Except for healing....)

 

"PvP players" whine endlessly about how if it didn't exist that "PvE players" could come over with PvE gear and faceroll, but if PvP gear were the same strength (without a garbage PvP stat) I don't see any issues whatsoever as the PvP players would have more skill and experience at PvPing.

 

Unless that's your fear - that the PvE players aren't actually worse than you are, who spends all your time PvPing exclusively. You fear them and need your precious artificial advantage.

 

Another thing broken about a PvP stat is it basically doubles the gear penalty.

 

If I'm a fresh 50, and I fight someone with raid gear, they have a gear advantage - more HP, more damage, more armor, etc.

 

If I fight someone in PvP gear, not only do I have the same gear disadvantage (remember, PvP gear has raid gear-level stats on it in ADDITION to expertise!) but a massive expertise disadvantage.

 

I have no chance whatsoever.

 

Expertise only "works" at its stupid purpose of giving an advantage over raid gear when FIGHTING PEOPLE IN RAID GEAR. Fighting someone who has neither is just utter obliteration. Without the PvP stat you'd be at a major disadvantage, but at least you'd have a chance.

 

This is the critical flaw with a PvP stat.

[fhslaxman]

there hasn't been a highly successful mmo released that was primarily focused on pvp - ever.

 

Guild wars avoids a pvp stat by having two entirely separate games. Entirely separate. Every skill does something different. It's two different games, that are tied together by the same engine.

 

Eve's pvp is the #1 reason new players to eve quit playing. It is so brutal that it is one of the things ccp cited at their panels at dragon*con this year as a reason why the game is still so niche. Ccp is successful, given their limited fanbase, but considering they just closed their us office due to failing profits...

 

Yeah.

 

As to why expertise needs to exist:

 

To make up for pvp/pve stat imbalances that do, in fact, exist, and need to exist.

 

As raid tiers progress, and difficulty, perforce, progresses, pve gear will scale exponentially - it has to, to keep up with bosses that might literally have 2-3x as much health as an entry level raid boss. At the same time, player health pools simply do not scale thusly, and cannot, due to the way items are built.

 

If you dont implement a "pvp stat", you get vanilla wow: Hardcore raiders in their t3 or the few no-lifes or cheaters who had hwl/gm gear 3-shotting everyone else with impugnity.

 

It's not a matter of opinion, man, it's math.

 

Now, if anything, the bonus damage and healing from expertise needs to go, and the damage reduction needs to be slightly buffed, and it needs to be only a damage reducer.

 

Also, other pvp issues prevent it from being that serious, anyway. Try playing a marskman sniper or a saber-wielding melee dps. Having 90% of your damage mitigated by every defensive stat in the game and armor, while other classes (sage, pyrotechs, ops/smuggler) have their damage ignore all armor and defensive stats... Is fair. Right?

 

qft

 

 

!

[Cherlin]

What would happen, though, if the PvP stats were increased to the PvE set levels?

 

You could compete with the most experienced PvPers with your PvE gear, or try out the high end content operations content with your PvP gear.

 

Everyone only stands to benefit from expertise being removed and PvP/PvE gear unity. PvPers benefit. PvEers benefit. Everyone wins.

 

if you do this what is the point of PvE? if you can get the best PvE gear from PvP why bother spending hours learning the boss fights, whiping, and paying those large repair bills? The only reason would be to see the content, which a lot of people won't care about, or wont want to spend the time doing, its almost like going back and doing all your quests to see the content, there will be no gear rewards, it will take a lot of time, but it can be interesting... a lot of people just won't do that

[SandTrout]

I'll just copy paste myself again:

 

The funny thing is Bioware tried to even the playing field for all levels with their bolstering system. This indicates they wanted all people no matter what level they were to have a chance at victory.

 

Then they completely throw it out the window with a PvP stat, and worse, a LAZY implementation of a PvP stat.

 

Expertise is only useful to dominate people who don't have it. It's an increase in damage coupled with a decrease in damage taken, which flatly cancels out against someone with equal amounts. (Except for healing....)

 

"PvP players" whine endlessly about how if it didn't exist that "PvE players" could come over with PvE gear and faceroll, but if PvP gear were the same strength (without a garbage PvP stat) I don't see any issues whatsoever as the PvP players would have more skill and experience at PvPing.

 

Unless that's your fear - that the PvE players aren't actually worse than you are, who spends all your time PvPing exclusively. You fear them and need your precious artificial advantage.

 

Another thing broken about a PvP stat is it basically doubles the gear penalty.

 

If I'm a fresh 50, and I fight someone with raid gear, they have a gear advantage - more HP, more damage, more armor, etc.

 

If I fight someone in PvP gear, not only do I have the same gear disadvantage (remember, PvP gear has raid gear-level stats on it in ADDITION to expertise!) but a massive expertise disadvantage.

 

I have no chance whatsoever.

 

Expertise only "works" at its stupid purpose of giving an advantage over raid gear when FIGHTING PEOPLE IN RAID GEAR. Fighting someone who has neither is just utter obliteration. Without the PvP stat you'd be at a major disadvantage, but at least you'd have a chance.

 

This is the critical flaw with a PvP stat.

Amen.

[Xilrasis]

What would happen, though, if the PvP stats were increased to the PvE set levels?

 

You could compete with the most experienced PvPers with your PvE gear, or try out the high end content operations content with your PvP gear.

 

Everyone only stands to benefit from expertise being removed and PvP/PvE gear unity. PvPers benefit. PvEers benefit. Everyone wins.

 

What would happen?

 

This is what would happen:

 

People would do PVP only for gear, and then steamroll PVE encounters and get bored. Then because "PVP gear is too easy to get", they would nerf the acquisition rate of it (again, after the "Hardcore" minority already has it), further pissing off the majority of PVPers, and forcing them to go PVE for their gear so they can PVP because its now the fastest way to acquire gear... and then realize that since they PVE'd for their gear, their PVPing now has no real goal other than killing people because they have everything already.