Expertise is a giant mistake, didn't you learn from Trion?

[bodhisattvasw]

There should be NO special stat for 50 pvp, it makes no sense. In every old pvp mmo that's ever came out they didn't need special stats, it was about your build, and skill. That's enough, only bad's require special stats that put them at an extreme advantage. Nobody else does.

 

Trion made a GIANT MISTAKE with Valor, and they admit it! They tried to remove it, then they tried to add it to PVE gear, then they decided 'screw it' and tossed the same valor on ALL pvp gear! Essentially they realize any special stat people can 'grind out' in PVP places a tremendous imbalance into the game that isn't easily fixed.

 

I foresee a huge problem with the 50's bracket when new 50's enter it and become 'food' for people that have high expertise they got from GRINDING LOW LEVELS, while the new 50's won't have this luxury. They will be slaughtered. Therefore, choose your solution;

 

1) Expertise needs to be removed.

2) Expertise needs to be added to lower level pvp gear.

3) Entry-Level 50's PVP gear needs to be added that has expertise, and is purchasable with Warzone Coms prior to reaching 50.

 

Take your pick, one of the three has to happen or the noob farming won't stop with the 50's bracket. If someone needs their own special stat to compete in pvp then they can just give up pvping. There is little logic in these 'special' stats, and they only serve to cause more imbalances.

Edited January 14, 2012 by bodhisattvasw

[Ashnazg]

There should be NO special stat for 50 pvp, it makes no sense. In every old pvp mmo that's ever came out they didn't need special stats, it was about your build, and skill. That's enough, only bad's require special stats that put them at an extreme advantage. Nobody else does.

 

Trion made a GIANT MISTAKE with Valor, and they admit it! They tried to remove it, then they tried to add it to PVE gear, then they decided 'screw it' and tossed the same valor on ALL pvp gear! Essentially they realize any special stat people can 'grind out' in PVP places a tremendous imbalance into the game that isn't easily fixed.

 

I foresee a huge problem with the 50's bracket when new 50's enter it and become 'food' for people that have high expertise they got from GRINDING LOW LEVELS, while the new 50's won't have this luxury. They will be slaughtered. Therefore, choose your solution;

 

1) Expertise needs to be removed.

2) Expertise needs to be added to lower level pvp gear.

3) Entry-Level 50's PVP gear needs to be added that has expertise, and is purchasable with Warzone Coms prior to reaching 50.

 

Take your pick, one of the three has to happen or the noob farming won't stop with the 50's bracket. If someone needs their own special stat to compete in pvp then they can just give up pvping. There is little logic in these 'special' stats, and they only serve to cause more imbalances.

 

Expertise is easily attainable once you hit 50. It takes less than a week to get a solid array of Champ Gear unless you are pathetically unlucky. For the majority of the population, they'll have 4-5 piece champ by the end of week 1.

 

Given that expertise only accounts for 10% extra damage (as well as less damage taken, etc) your point is moot.

[Barentar]

Yes i already see how those people who started at pre-launch and no-lifed to 50 in like a week, have an advantage with battlemaster gear even over other new fresh lvl 50's now. They had this one-time-only window of opportunity that is already closing and will be closed completely with this new 1.1 patch. And no one else will have it. Fair?

 

And I am one of those "fresh ones". Now playing in pvp brings back NEGATIVE memories from WoW pvp, one thing i feared and hoped it wouldn't.

 

Not boasting here, but I consider myself a fairly decent player who can win most of my 1 vs 1's. But when i face those grinders, I already just give up - no use to ressist anyways.

 

Why and who thought that additional stat for pvp is a good idea?

 

Why can't I gather my gear in a way I want - wether it's PVE, PVP, crafting or w/e, and use it for anything i want - pvp or pve?

 

How is it unfair if i collect my gear from PVP and then go PVE raiding with it, and vice versa? As long as PVE and PVP contents are both equally challenging, there is not difference to me!

[SandTrout]

Yes i already see how those people who started at pre-launch and no-lifed to 50 in like a week, have an advantage with battlemaster gear even over other new fresh lvl 50's now. They had this one-time-only window of opportunity that is already closing and will be closed completely with this new 1.1 patch. And no one else will have it. Fair?

 

And I am one of those "fresh ones". Now playing in pvp brings back NEGATIVE memories from WoW pvp, one thing i feared and hoped it wouldn't.

 

Not boasting here, but I consider myself a fairly decent player who can win most of my 1 vs 1's. But when i face those grinders, I already just give up - no use to ressist anyways.

 

Why and who thought that additional stat for pvp is a good idea?

 

Why can't I gather my gear in a way I want - wether it's PVE, PVP, crafting or w/e, and use it for anything i want - pvp or pve?

 

How is it unfair if i collect my gear from PVP and then go PVE raiding with it, and vice versa? As long as PVE and PVP contents are both equally challenging, there is not difference to me!

QFT.

 

Expertise is a 0 sum arms race that will only hurt the game and community.

[Wiggletphyre]

There should be NO special stat for 50 pvp, it makes no sense. In every old pvp mmo that's ever came out they didn't need special stats, it was about your build, and skill. That's enough, only bad's require special stats that put them at an extreme advantage. Nobody else does.

 

Trion made a GIANT MISTAKE with Valor, and they admit it! They tried to remove it, then they tried to add it to PVE gear, then they decided 'screw it' and tossed the same valor on ALL pvp gear! Essentially they realize any special stat people can 'grind out' in PVP places a tremendous imbalance into the game that isn't easily fixed.

 

I foresee a huge problem with the 50's bracket when new 50's enter it and become 'food' for people that have high expertise they got from GRINDING LOW LEVELS, while the new 50's won't have this luxury. They will be slaughtered. Therefore, choose your solution;

 

1) Expertise needs to be removed.

2) Expertise needs to be added to lower level pvp gear.

3) Entry-Level 50's PVP gear needs to be added that has expertise, and is purchasable with Warzone Coms prior to reaching 50.

 

Take your pick, one of the three has to happen or the noob farming won't stop with the 50's bracket. If someone needs their own special stat to compete in pvp then they can just give up pvping. There is little logic in these 'special' stats, and they only serve to cause more imbalances.

 

tl;dr

 

Anyways, they havent learned from Trion, they learned from Warhammer where everybody was farming PvE to be competitive in PvP

 

/thread

[Sowwy]

I dont think the stat is bad provided players have a reliable path to get the gear for it. This RNG system propels some players while stunting others. Its asymmetrical and needs to be changed.

[Killadrix]

Expertise is a necessary evil.

 

If you guys would all quit crying about it for a few seconds and contemplate how removing the stat would effect overall balance and longevity of the game, you might figure out why every major MMO in the last 3-4 years is using a variation of it.

 

You guys are just like my employees who come to me and complain about why we do things a certain way where I work. They get all worked up, then I explain the bigger picture and they say "oh, I never thought of that".

 

I think George Bush said it best as he was leaving the White House: "When you know what I know, you will make the same decisions".

[Dosvidaniya]

There should be NO special stat for 50 pvp, it makes no sense. In every old pvp mmo that's ever came out they didn't need special stats, it was about your build, and skill. That's enough, only bad's require special stats that put them at an extreme advantage. Nobody else does.

 

Trion made a GIANT MISTAKE with Valor, and they admit it! They tried to remove it, then they tried to add it to PVE gear, then they decided 'screw it' and tossed the same valor on ALL pvp gear! Essentially they realize any special stat people can 'grind out' in PVP places a tremendous imbalance into the game that isn't easily fixed.

 

I foresee a huge problem with the 50's bracket when new 50's enter it and become 'food' for people that have high expertise they got from GRINDING LOW LEVELS, while the new 50's won't have this luxury. They will be slaughtered. Therefore, choose your solution;

 

1) Expertise needs to be removed.

2) Expertise needs to be added to lower level pvp gear.

3) Entry-Level 50's PVP gear needs to be added that has expertise, and is purchasable with Warzone Coms prior to reaching 50.

 

Take your pick, one of the three has to happen or the noob farming won't stop with the 50's bracket. If someone needs their own special stat to compete in pvp then they can just give up pvping. There is little logic in these 'special' stats, and they only serve to cause more imbalances.

 

They had a level 50 set that fit your exact description. It worked great. I took out champ geared players in it. It was the perfect buffer. I just have one question. Why did BW remove it from the game?! There has been very little outrage on the subject, but it upsets me. I'd like to level an alt. Without that armor, the initial bit of level 50 pvp is going to be horrendous. Put it back in the game BW. Why did you remove it in the first place? Is there a reason you think 2 armor sets pre-end game are acceptable for pvp? Especially when there isn't even a level 50 version?!

 

Not like they'll ever answer the questions though.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Dosvidaniya

[SandTrout]

Expertise is a necessary evil.

 

If you guys would all quit crying about it for a few seconds and contemplate how removing the stat would effect overall balance and longevity of the game, you might figure out why every major MMO in the last 3-4 years is using a variation of it.

They use it because they copy each other, and there hasn't been a highly successful MMO released that was primarily focused on PvP in the last 3-4 years. The most PvP centric MMOs that I can think of that are currently running are Guild Wars(if you count it as an MMO) and EvE. Both avoid any sort of PvP stat like the plague.

 

You guys are just like my employees who come to me and complain about why we do things a certain way where I work. They get all worked up, then I explain the bigger picture and they say "oh, I never thought of that".

I'm open to explanations. You're not providing one here, you're just stating that we we're failing to see it.

 

Give me a valid explanation for why it is needed. The only one I have seen provided is that it is intended to make up for PvP/PvE stat differences which do not need to exist. Allow access to equally stated gear by either path (IE: DAoC, one of the better PvP based MMOs which never had a PvP stat of any sort) and there is no gear gap between PvE and PvP gear that requires an ill-though solution like expertise for correct.

[Killadrix]

They use it because they copy each other, and there hasn't been a highly successful MMO released that was primarily focused on PvP in the last 3-4 years. The most PvP centric MMOs that I can think of that are currently running are Guild Wars(if you count it as an MMO) and EvE. Both avoid any sort of PvP stat like the plague.

 

I'm open to explanations. You're not providing one here, you're just stating that we we're failing to see it.

 

Give me a valid explanation for why it is needed. The only one I have seen provided is that it is intended to make up for PvP/PvE stat differences which do not need to exist. Allow access to equally stated gear by either path (IE: DAoC, one of the better PvP based MMOs which never had a PvP stat of any sort) and there is no gear gap between PvE and PvP gear that requires an ill-though solution like expertise for correct.

 

I've given the explanation in 3-4 of the other whine threads about it and am not going to do it again here because I am tired of reciting it.

 

I do believe that there are very good reasons for it which keep the rest of the game in balance.

 

Also, as I've stated in the other threads, I wouldn't be upset if it were removed, I just understand why it is necessary.

[Mattderp]

No, what you're pretty much saying is you don't want to invest the time to get PvP gear so you just want the main stat removed so you can PvP in your PvE gear gg. whine more please

[Lyynk]

It would be cool if they added starter PVP stuff in that could be crafted. That way, when you hit 50, you can buy the noob gear to help you out a little bit until you can get better gear.

 

I dunno, just an idea to improve the usefulness of crafting at 50. Just a thought.

[SandTrout]

No, what you're pretty much saying is you don't want to invest the time to get PvP gear so you just want the main stat removed so you can PvP in your PvE gear gg. whine more please

Actually, what I'm saying is that I want to PvP in my PvE gear, and PvE in my PvP gear. I don't want to dedicate myself solely to 1/2 of the game because of some bad crack that was being smoked over at Blizzard.

[Noctournys]

They use it because they copy each other, and there hasn't been a highly successful MMO released that was primarily focused on PvP in the last 3-4 years. The most PvP centric MMOs that I can think of that are currently running are Guild Wars(if you count it as an MMO) and EvE. Both avoid any sort of PvP stat like the plague.

 

I'm open to explanations. You're not providing one here, you're just stating that we we're failing to see it.

 

Give me a valid explanation for why it is needed. The only one I have seen provided is that it is intended to make up for PvP/PvE stat differences which do not need to exist. Allow access to equally stated gear by either path (IE: DAoC, one of the better PvP based MMOs which never had a PvP stat of any sort) and there is no gear gap between PvE and PvP gear that requires an ill-though solution like expertise for correct.

 

There hasn't been a highly successful MMO released that was primarily focused on PvP - EVER.

 

Guild Wars avoids a PvP stat by having two entirely separate games. Entirely separate. Every skill does something different. It's two different games, that are tied together by the same engine.

 

EVE's PvP is the #1 reason new players to EVE quit playing. It is so brutal that it is one of the things CCP cited at their panels at Dragon*Con this year as a reason why the game is still so niche. CCP is successful, given their limited fanbase, but considering they just closed their US office due to failing profits...

 

yeah.

 

As to why Expertise needs to exist:

 

To make up for PvP/PvE stat imbalances that do, in fact, exist, and need to exist.

 

As raid tiers progress, and difficulty, perforce, progresses, PvE gear will scale exponentially - it has to, to keep up with bosses that might literally have 2-3x as much health as an entry level raid boss. At the same time, player health pools simply DO NOT scale thusly, and CANNOT, due to the way items are built.

 

If you DONT implement a "PvP stat", you get Vanilla WoW: Hardcore raiders in their T3 or the few no-lifes or cheaters who had HWL/GM gear 3-shotting everyone else with impugnity.

 

It's not a matter of opinion, man, it's MATH.

 

Now, if anything, the bonus damage and healing from Expertise needs to go, and the damage reduction needs to be slightly buffed, and it needs to be ONLY a damage reducer.

 

Also, other PvP issues prevent it from being that serious, anyway. Try playing a Marskman Sniper or a saber-wielding melee dps. Having 90% of your damage mitigated by every defensive stat in the game AND armor, while other classes (Sage, Pyrotechs, Ops/Smuggler) have their damage IGNORE all armor and defensive stats... is fair. Right?

[Swaay]

Expertise is a necessary evil.

 

If you guys would all quit crying about it for a few seconds and contemplate how removing the stat would effect overall balance and longevity of the game, you might figure out why every major MMO in the last 3-4 years is using a variation of it.

 

You guys are just like my employees who come to me and complain about why we do things a certain way where I work. They get all worked up, then I explain the bigger picture and they say "oh, I never thought of that".

 

I think George Bush said it best as he was leaving the White House: "When you know what I know, you will make the same decisions".

 

Exactly.

 

Most of these people must be new to MMO's and didn't see days of the elite PVE raiders dominating PVP.

 

Else, they would be on here crying about that too....wahhhhhh, why do the hardcore raiders get all the best gear and beat me up all the time, its not fairrrr!!

[Kshahdoo]

Actually, what I'm saying is that I want to PvP in my PvE gear, and PvE in my PvP gear. I don't want to dedicate myself solely to 1/2 of the game because of some bad crack that was being smoked over at Blizzard.

 

And I want to PvP in my PvP gear and don't care of PvE. So sorry, expertise is a good stat. And I don't care what you pvers think of it...

[Killadrix]

Actually, what I'm saying is that I want to PvP in my PvE gear, and PvE in my PvP gear. I don't want to dedicate myself solely to 1/2 of the game because of some bad crack that was being smoked over at Blizzard.

 

/sigh

 

Ok, go ahead BW - remove expertise.

 

1) This way you will have to balance endgame PVE around PVP

 

2) You will remove a substantial time sink allowing people to get gear, get bored and unsub

 

3) So every time you wish to release a new PVE tier you can't do so without releasing a new PVP tier

 

4) You need to make sure that PVE and PVP gear progression paths are 100% identically the same speed since whichever one is deemed the fastest will be the one everyone is "forced" to do (for the exact same gear, right?).

 

Just go ahead and pull the trigger in expertise, BW.

 

I'm sure if it goes bad or becomes a mess to balance that all the people who do nothing but camp the forums incessently whining about things they don't stop to think about will pitch in the thousands of hours and millions of dollars you will lose catering to their misinformed whims.

 

I'm sure they will.

[Killadrix]

There hasn't been a highly successful MMO released that was primarily focused on PvP - EVER.

 

Guild Wars avoids a PvP stat by having two entirely separate games. Entirely separate. Every skill does something different. It's two different games, that are tied together by the same engine.

 

EVE's PvP is the #1 reason new players to EVE quit playing. It is so brutal that it is one of the things CCP cited at their panels at Dragon*Con this year as a reason why the game is still so niche. CCP is successful, given their limited fanbase, but considering they just closed their US office due to failing profits...

 

yeah.

 

As to why Expertise needs to exist:

 

To make up for PvP/PvE stat imbalances that do, in fact, exist, and need to exist.

 

As raid tiers progress, and difficulty, perforce, progresses, PvE gear will scale exponentially - it has to, to keep up with bosses that might literally have 2-3x as much health as an entry level raid boss. At the same time, player health pools simply DO NOT scale thusly, and CANNOT, due to the way items are built.

 

If you DONT implement a "PvP stat", you get Vanilla WoW: Hardcore raiders in their T3 or the few no-lifes or cheaters who had HWL/GM gear 3-shotting everyone else with impugnity.

 

It's not a matter of opinion, man, it's MATH.

 

Now, if anything, the bonus damage and healing from Expertise needs to go, and the damage reduction needs to be slightly buffed, and it needs to be ONLY a damage reducer.

 

Also, other PvP issues prevent it from being that serious, anyway. Try playing a Marskman Sniper or a saber-wielding melee dps. Having 90% of your damage mitigated by every defensive stat in the game AND armor, while other classes (Sage, Pyrotechs, Ops/Smuggler) have their damage IGNORE all armor and defensive stats... is fair. Right?

 

This guy: voted smartest man on the forums today.

 

Thank you.

[Swaay]

4) You need to make sure that PVE and PVP gear progression paths are 100% identically the same speed since whichever one is deemed the fastest will be the one everyone is "forced" to do (for the exact same gear, right?).

[/i]

 

 

This, exactly this.

 

This is what these people don't think about.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Swaay

[Ashnazg]

There hasn't been a highly successful MMO released that was primarily focused on PvP - EVER.

 

DAoC would like a word with you.

 

They were successful (for their time) until they released a PvE expansion - Trials of Atlantis.

[SandTrout]

There hasn't been a highly successful MMO released that was primarily focused on PvP - EVER.

DAoC, Planetside (granted, lacked any PvE)

 

As to why Expertise needs to exist:

 

To make up for PvP/PvE stat imbalances that do, in fact, exist, and need to exist.

 

As raid tiers progress, and difficulty, perforce, progresses, PvE gear will scale exponentially - it has to, to keep up with bosses that might literally have 2-3x as much health as an entry level raid boss. At the same time, player health pools simply DO NOT scale thusly, and CANNOT, due to the way items are built.

This is a design flaw in the bosses, then. PvE end raids are always about team coordination and skill with manipulating the environment as necessary. If the solution to making a more difficult instance is to make it required for players to aquire a set of higher-tiered armor, there is an intrinsic flaw in how you're going about creating new challenges, because you're not. Your just caking on another layer of the same paint.

 

If you DONT implement a "PvP stat", you get Vanilla WoW: Hardcore raiders in their T3 or the few no-lifes or cheaters who had HWL/GM gear 3-shotting everyone else with impugnity.

Caused by poor design decisions on Blizzard's part by not allowing PvP players equal access to said T3 gear. Allow access to the same gear, and PvE players have no advantage, and PvP players have no reason to complain. Let's try learning from past mistakes instead of repeating them.

 

It's not a matter of opinion, man, it's MATH.

I agree that it is math, and I want the numbers on both sides to be equal. I want (2+2) = (2+2). Same stats, same number, no problem, the equation balances. I don't understand the compulsion to attempt to make 4x^2 + 3y^-1 = 12a - 3.14b

 

Now, if anything, the bonus damage and healing from Expertise needs to go, and the damage reduction needs to be slightly buffed, and it needs to be ONLY a damage reducer.

This would simply mean that players do less damage to each other, fights last longer, and healers become more valuable, regardless. That IS entirely a matter of opinion on weather you want long, drawn out PvP fights or quicker, more decisive combat with less room for error. Purely a matter of taste on this point.

 

Also, other PvP issues prevent it from being that serious, anyway. Try playing a Marskman Sniper or a saber-wielding melee dps. Having 90% of your damage mitigated by every defensive stat in the game AND armor, while other classes (Sage, Pyrotechs, Ops/Smuggler) have their damage IGNORE all armor and defensive stats... is fair. Right?

I Play a marksman sniper, FYI, and I do have some issues with how the tree performs in PvP for the above stated issues. However, those issues are in no way related to or alleviated by expertise, or even gear at all. They are intrinsic game mechanics related to the classes and the more fundamental mechanics of the game. Edited January 14, 2012 by SandTrout

[Darthneubauer]

There should be NO special stat for 50 pvp, it makes no sense. In every old pvp mmo that's ever came out they didn't need special stats, it was about your build, and skill. That's enough, only bad's require special stats that put them at an extreme advantage. Nobody else does.

 

let me stop you right there bud, as you obviously dont know ****.

 

you're dealing 900 damage instead of 1000 to someone with 500valour/10% pvp def

if you're the better you'll win stop making excuses and l2p instead of making wall of texts on teh forums

[claxdog]

Expertise is a necessary evil.

 

If you guys would all quit crying about it for a few seconds and contemplate how removing the stat would effect overall balance and longevity of the game, you might figure out why every major MMO in the last 3-4 years is using a variation of it.

 

You guys are just like my employees who come to me and complain about why we do things a certain way where I work. They get all worked up, then I explain the bigger picture and they say "oh, I never thought of that".

 

I think George Bush said it best as he was leaving the White House: "When you know what I know, you will make the same decisions".

 

The fact that you quoted W makes all your other points invalid.

[SandTrout]

let me stop you right there bud, as you obviously dont know ****.

 

you're dealing 900 damage instead of 1000 to someone with 500valour/10% pvp def

if you're the better you'll win stop making excuses and l2p instead of making wall of texts on teh forums

If you l2p you won't need a 20% damage advantage over new players.

 

Yes, new players deal 900 instead of 1000 to the geared player, but the geared player is dealing 1100 instead of 1000 to the new player. Expertise works both directions.

[Killadrix]

DAoC, Planetside (granted, lacked any PvE)

 

This is a design flaw in the bosses, then. PvE end raids are always about team coordination and skill with manipulating the environment as necessary. If the solution to making a more difficult instance is to make it required for players to aquire a set of higher-tiered armor, there is an intrinsic flaw in how you're going about creating new challenges, because you're not. Your just caking on another layer of the same paint.

 

 

Really?

 

So if the bosses gain no more health, player gear gains no more stats, and every fight comes down to mastering mechanics: how do you plan to reward players with new gear if the stats will not be increased?

 

I can't wait to hear this one...