When brackets arrive, should those <50 get a large bonus?

[Zetara]

Sometimes I worry that I'm playing a different game to some of you.

 

I think I played a Voidstar with you yesterday if you're on Nightmare Lands. We had an erm, 'heated exchange' but was nothing personal.

[Jestunhi]

I think I played a Voidstar with you yesterday if you're on Nightmare Lands. We had an erm, 'heated exchange' but was nothing personal.

 

I am on that server, so likely me.

 

I recall the match - and where the teammate icons were on the minimap compared to where the doors are

 

Annoys me when defenders fall for the "I'm a low healther attacker, chase me away from the doors!" trick.

[Zetara]

I am on that server, so likely me.

 

I recall the match - and where the teammate icons were on the minimap compared to where the doors are

 

Annoys me when defenders fall for the "I'm a low healther attacker, chase me away from the doors!" trick.

 

Hehe, yeah I think I told you to l2p because you were typing in caps 'PLANT THE BOMB' despite the 3 alive attackers being up against 7 alive defenders when they all ran over, I remember thinking 'yeah, like I can just walk through them all and plant it uninterrupted.'

 

Sorry about that, was just frustrated, I think we both started planting right at the same time eventually with 4 friendlies behind us, and their entire team dead, then one of them drops down and interrupts us constantly despite the other 4 behind us not bothering to do anything to ensure we can plant. I'm prone to fits of swearing lol. I was screaming at the friendlies milling behind us in my head STUN HIM, STUN HIM, DO SOMETHING! Oh great interrupted, oh great there's the rest of his team dropped down.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Zetara

[Jestunhi]

one of them drops down and interrupts us constantly despite the other 4 behind us not bothering to do anything to ensure we can plant.

 

Not surprising we snap sometimes with team mates like ours

[mufutiz]

Wrong, nowhere near.

 

Oh is that so?

 

Please give a few examples. (Or just one, ideally not some obscure low-key asia grinder)

 

 

I have a few games right here, using instanced PvP with brackets, just to explain what I was talking about:

 

 

Dark Age of Camelot

Everquest 2

Lineage 2

Guild Wars

World of Warcraft

Age of Conan

Warhammer Online

Rift

Aion

 

That's just off the top of my head,games that released in the last couple of years, were relatively mainstream and had instanced PvP in them.

 

Let's face it,the FFA no-brackets no-rules-apply approach in this game is pretty much unprecedented because it is just that horrible. If you think about it, it is actually quite insulting to deny low level players, alts and mains alike, the ability to do ANY meaningful PvP whatsoever, other than donating commendations to the opposing 50's.

[NasherUK]

Hate to break it to you, but not much is going to change once level 50 get their own bracket. Your not suddenly going to be better in pvp when it's 10-49, if your bad now you will still be bad.

 

What will happen is people will just roll another character so they can pvp in the 10-49 bracket once they get bored of the longer queues at level 50. Except this time it will be in pre-made groups...

Edited January 14, 2012 by NasherUK

[Jestunhi]

Hate to break it to you, but not much is going to change once level 50 get their own bracket. Your not suddenly going to be better in pvp when it's 10-49, if your bad now you will still be bad.

 

I fully expect the same whine threads to continue because sadly the above is true.

 

Yes, high expertise gear causes an imbalance.

 

But people seem to have it in their heads that it's physically impossible to win more than you lose below lvl 50, You have it so entrenched in your minds that 40 is higher than 30 that you have convinced yourself that the 40 will always win.

 

 

We will continue to see skilled & knowledgeable pre-mades effecting the outcome more than pugs and the people who solo queue will continue to complain about balance or lack of mvp vote.

[Zetara]

Oh is that so?

 

Please give a few examples. (Or just one, ideally not some obscure low-key asia grinder)

 

 

I have a few games right here, using instanced PvP with brackets, just to explain what I was talking about:

 

 

Dark Age of Camelot

Everquest 2

Lineage 2

Guild Wars

World of Warcraft

Age of Conan

Warhammer Online

Rift

Aion

 

That's just off the top of my head,games that released in the last couple of years, were relatively mainstream and had instanced PvP in them.

 

Let's face it,the FFA no-brackets no-rules-apply approach in this game is pretty much unprecedented because it is just that horrible. If you think about it, it is actually quite insulting to deny low level players, alts and mains alike, the ability to do ANY meaningful PvP whatsoever, other than donating commendations to the opposing 50's.

 

Several games in there that people hated also. Games within the last few years don't count, because MMOs take years and years and years to develop. I also like how you put 'games released in the last few years' and then put WOW in there.

 

MxO

Eve Online

SWG

DCUO

APB

STO

 

The list goes on. Instanced PVP or open world PVP, higher level > lower level end of story. Always has been, always will be. If open world PVP was what people wanted it to be in this game, there would be QQ threads about being ganked by 50s and that it wasn't fair. Whether it's open world or instanced, PVP is PVP and higher levels will trump lower levels, play a bit more instead of wanting everything made easy. Plenty of people in this game love triumphing over higher level characters and find it quite challenging.

[Zetara]

I fully expect the same whine threads to continue because sadly the above is true.

 

Yes, high expertise gear causes an imbalance.

 

But people seem to have it in their heads that it's physically impossible to win more than you lose below lvl 50, You have it so entrenched in your minds that 40 is higher than 30 that you have convinced yourself that the 40 will always win.

 

 

We will continue to see skilled & knowledgeable pre-mades effecting the outcome more than pugs and the people who solo queue will continue to complain about balance or lack of mvp vote.

 

This. I'm 47 on my char and I usually have no problems unless I have an idiot team who doesn't communicate. Level 50s aren't a problem if you work as a team. Me and a friend who queue most of the time tag each other so we can see where each other are and back each other up.

[Dravinian]

This. I'm 47 on my char and I usually have no problems unless I have an idiot team who doesn't communicate. Level 50s aren't a problem if you work as a team. Me and a friend who queue most of the time tag each other so we can see where each other are and back each other up.

 

More of the same old rubbish.

 

I can overcome mathematics simply by being leet.

 

No you can't, when you face similar odds of similar skilled players who are 50 in +expertise gear you lose.

 

Not...you sometimes lose, not....you might lose. You lose 100% of the time.

 

What you rely upon is some rose tinted memory of when you beat a level 50, who may not even have had expertise gear and this somehow, or when you played some idiot facerolling on this keyboard to pretend that you are a leet player.

 

You can't accept the truth because then you would have to accept that you are just an ordinary person, just like everyone else.

 

Instead you deny the truth that is self-evident to make yourself appear more important.

[Biggrouse]

i have a level 14 sniper and i PVP a lot. i always get the most damage and usually get unstoppable and 6+ medals per game

[Jestunhi]

More of the same old rubbish.

 

I can overcome mathematics simply by being leet.

 

No you can't, when you face similar odds of similar skilled players who are 50 in +expertise gear you lose.

 

Not...you sometimes lose, not....you might lose. You lose 100% of the time.

 

What you rely upon is some rose tinted memory of when you beat a level 50, who may not even have had expertise gear and this somehow, or when you played some idiot facerolling on this keyboard to pretend that you are a leet player.

 

You can't accept the truth because then you would have to accept that you are just an ordinary person, just like everyone else.

 

Instead you deny the truth that is self-evident to make yourself appear more important.

 

 

 

"NO ONE UNDER 50 HAS EVER WON A MATCH EVER!!!1!11!!!!!1!!!1!!!!!"

 

 

 

So, what happens when it's 8 pubs under 50 vs 8 imps under 50? Does the server implode rather than giving either team the win?

 

 

 

:edit:

 

You can't accept the truth because then you would have to accept that you are just bad at swtor pvp. It has to be completely, one hundred percent down to the level difference. There's no other explaination which could possibly be true!

Edited January 14, 2012 by Jestunhi

[Dravinian]

The truth is that most of the people who are here complaining, don't need to bolster their egos with an online game.

 

I don't need to make myself feel better because I am "great" in a game, so I can live with the realisation that I am quite ordinary and when I face another ordinary player with massively increased damage reduction and increased damage I lose.

 

It is an almost mathematical certainty, I might when against bad players occasionally, but in reality when I face a level 50 I will almost certainly lose.

 

I can accept that because I don't need the game to feel better about myself, I don't need to be "leet" in a game.

 

Anyone suggesting otherwise, saying l2p, or denying the reality that is PvP in this game is probably sat in their parents basement, unemployed, overweight, with no other achievements in their life to speak of.

 

Thus they need the game to feel better, they need to feel like they have achieved something.

 

Ohh pschoanalysis for the masses.

[mufutiz]

Several games in there that people hated also. Games within the last few years don't count, because MMOs take years and years and years to develop. I also like how you put 'games released in the last few years' and then put WOW in there.

 

I was looking at games released over the last decade... so WoW definitely has its place, especially because there is probably still more PvP being done there,pure numbers, right now than in all other competitors put together

 

 

MxO

Eve Online

SWG

DCUO

APB

STO

 

 

Oh come on. Eve? APB? SWG?

 

SWTOR is a theme park-MMORPG with extremely conventional PvP. It is a stretch to compare it to pretty much any game you mentioned but Eve and APB are not even remotely the same kind of game... The rest was pretty much a sinking ship right at launch and I never played SWG so you might have a point there (still open world game, no theme park...)

 

 

Whether it's open world or instanced, PVP is PVP and higher levels will trump lower levels, play a bit more instead of wanting everything made easy.

 

Give me a break, please. I am not even going to dignify this with an answer. You don't know me so I am not going to hold it against you but that deadbeat "wanting everything made easy"... yeah, when I see someone accusing me of wantin ezmode that pretty much ends the discussion right there for me.

 

And I will tell you why:

 

Plenty of people in this game love triumphing over higher level characters and find it quite challenging.

 

I am not one to wallow in self-adulation but I would say I am a decent player finding new ways to challenge myself constantly, let's just leave it at that.

 

When you triumph over a geared 50 on your lowbie toon in this game the only thing you are taking away from the fight is the knowledge that you just beat a truly horrible player... not very rewarding for me.

 

Bolstering is a complete joke when 2 50's are confronted by 2 mid 20's. (again, unless the 2 50's suck in the most major way imagineable)

[Dravinian]

"NO ONE UNDER 50 HAS EVER WON A MATCH EVER!!!1!11!!!!!1!!!1!!!!!"

 

 

 

So, what happens when it's 8 pubs under 50 vs 8 imps under 50? Does the server implode rather than giving either team the win?

 

 

 

:edit:

 

You can't accept the truth because then you would have to accept that you are just bad at swtor pvp. It has to be completely, one hundred percent down to the level difference. There's no other explaination which could possibly be true!

 

No one has ever said that.

 

What we have said is that at a lower level you are farmed...whether you win or lose is irrelevant.

 

You were still farmed.

 

The fact that some other 50s on your team carried you to victory is neither here nor there.

 

Look I don't want to bust your bubble, you keep thinking you are great, you keep clinging to how wonderful you are because you are special in the game, you are different to all the qqing babies on the forum.

 

If that is all you have, I don't want to take it away.

[Jestunhi]

The truth is that most of the people who are here complaining, don't need to bolster their egos with an online game.

 

I don't need to make myself feel better because I am "great" in a game, so I can live with the realisation that I am quite ordinary and when I face another ordinary player with massively increased damage reduction and increased damage I lose.

 

It is an almost mathematical certainty, I might when against bad players occasionally, but in reality when I face a level 50 I will almost certainly lose.

 

I can accept that because I don't need the game to feel better about myself, I don't need to be "leet" in a game.

 

Anyone suggesting otherwise, saying l2p, or denying the reality that is PvP in this game is probably sat in their parents basement, unemployed, overweight, with no other achievements in their life to speak of.

 

Thus they need the game to feel better, they need to feel like they have achieved something.

 

Ohh pschoanalysis for the masses.

 

interesting how you similtaniously take the "if you claim to win against a 50 you are an e-peen loving liar" and "I can't win therefore no one else possibly can" pseudo-elitism stance at the same time.

 

 

 

 

:edit:

 

I think my only comment on my own skills was that I had a positive win / loss record. You claimed this was a lie (based on no information at all) and this has led you to believe that I rely on my e-peen and you don't want to take it away from me?

 

What's wrong with you? How to you make these crazy connections?

Edited January 14, 2012 by Jestunhi

[Sheandra]

How come there are so many posts about nothing, when it was intentional so when people actually got to 50 they could also pvp and didnt have to wait for the "slow" people ?

This is the reason they are doing a 50 bracket now, cuz alot more people are 50

Edited January 14, 2012 by Sheandra

[Zetara]

No you can't, when you face similar odds of similar skilled players who are 50 in +expertise gear you lose.

 

Not...you sometimes lose, not....you might lose. You lose 100% of the time.

 

You are wrong. Pure and simple. It might happen to you, doesn't mean it happens all the time. It happens time and time and time again where you win and you can see examples of this all over the forum. Bolstering is not supposed to match a 50. It's not supposed to make you equal to them. It's designed to make you, a lowbie, who has chosen to try and roll with the big boys of your own choice, less sucky than you already are. It does the same for me too. It was never supposed to put you equal to them.

 

SWTOR is a theme park-MMORPG with extremely conventional PvP. It is a stretch to compare it to pretty much any game you mentioned but Eve and APB are not even remotely the same kind of game... The rest was pretty much a sinking ship right at launch and I never played SWG so you might have a point there (still open world game, no theme park...)

 

 

Doesn't matter. PVP is PVP. It's person or people, against person or people. Where people with higher gear and more points will most probably do better than you. The rest is semantics, the principle remains the same, many games pit everybody on the same playing field where the best geared have an advantage, and everyone else has to go and play the game to get to their level if they want to be on the same level, rather than wanting them taken awy so they don't get beat as much. It's common sense.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Zetara

[bodhisattvasw]

Simple answer: Expertise has to go.

 

It ruined Rift in a BIG WAY.. Green 50's are going to get smashed, and it's going to create a new set of problems. I cannot believe developers are silly enough to keep adding a 'special' stat in for 50's pvp.. Don't they learn? Trion greatly regrets the addition of Valor into their game and has tried to remove it, but it's too late.

 

You know, old mmo's didn't need 'special' stats to cater to BAD pvpers that need special things to compete. When will companies learn????

[Jestunhi]

You know, old mmo's didn't need 'special' stats to cater to BAD pvpers that need special things to compete.

 

 

Nope, they just give them a forum to whine on.

 

[Knightriderr]

I do as well on my 15 alt as my 50. Funny thing about the 50 bracket is you people who are <50 will still be bad and still be crying about it.

 

skill means nothing when the level 50 can push 3-4 buttons to kill you....a good percentage of the lvl 50 players i ahve seen are horrible at pvp (keyboard turners) yet get an instant win because of their gear. when fighting a lower level....i ahve no problem with the bolster system....but i do have a problem with making pvp gear based and not skill based.

[mufutiz]

It's designed to make you, a lowbie, who has chosen to try and roll with the big boys of your own choice, less sucky than you already are. It does the same for me too. It was never supposed to put you equal to them.

 

 

That's the kicker, the whole reason to make posts like this - you DON'T choose to "roll with the big boys". Bioware foregoes any genre convention and instead of offering separate brackets like every other MMORPG worth to be taken seriously does, they MAKE the decision for you - by not giving low level players any meaningful form of PvP whatsoever.

 

If you choose to do PvP on a fresh alt, you can play a commendation donor for the 50's that will farm you on the opposing side. That's it. that is 100% of the PvP content in the game for a low level player.

 

You can twist and turn it all you want, the system blows. That is why it has not been done in this way before, successfully.

 

 

The rest is semantics, the principle remains the same, many games pit everybody on the same playing field where the best geared triumph. It's common sense.

 

At 50 everyone can be the best (warning: limitations of physical and intellectual nature might apply ;-)

 

A lowbie has no chance to make up for the massive difference in (key-) abilities, stats, experience.

 

A lowbie bracket allows people of similarily lacking stats, gear and ability to have a fun time in PvP regardless.

 

That's why in sports there are different leagues of competing clubs playing each other. And not the most successful soccer clubs "farming" 4th league juniors.

 

 

I know you are probably afraid that you will have to work for your **** once the 50 bracket is in place. But you should be.

[Zetara]

That's the kicker, the whole reason to make posts like this - you DON'T choose to "roll with the big boys". Bioware foregoes any genre convention and instead of offering separate brackets like every other MMORPG worth to be taken seriously does, they MAKE the decision for you - by not giving low level players any meaningful form of PvP whatsoever.

 

Did you, or did you not, choose to queue for PVP despite knowign there were 50s there? You made that choice. You accept beforehand if you bump into someone who has invested more time than you have, that they will quite rightly have an advantage over you however you can overcome them with skill and working tactically with your team. This is a PVE game, with added PVP. If you choose to PVP, rather than PVE, you accept that if you run into someone who has invested more time than you have, and progressed further than you, that they might be better than you and be rewarded more than you. It's interesting you mentioned sports as a comparison, I'm not sure it's apt but if you really want to use it, why do you think in F1 Ferrari compete with Torro Rosso? Why don't Lotus whine that Red Bull need to be moved to their own separate teir because they have better gear? Why in football are fast players not separated from slow ones, and old players who have lost their legs compete in separate leagues to young fresh players? Why do Manchester United compete with QPR? Why do Barcelona compete with Getafe? That's right, because everybody is on the same field, and those with the best gear have an advantage, and it's up to you to do what you need to to compete. If you don't want to, don't expect to be able to compete.

 

 

 

A lowbie has no chance to make up for the massive difference in (key-) abilities, stats, experience.

 

Yes they do, by working together. This is not a solo game.

 

I know you are probably afraid that you will have to work for your **** once the 50 bracket is in place. But you should be.

 

I am not level 50, I already work for my stuff by playing against stacks of 50s constantly.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Zetara

[Talkative]

I'm going to farm you either way.

 

Just grind it out.

[bodhisattvasw]

I agree that most 50's I see that rushed to 50, aren't very good at PVP. The fact is, a significant number of them rely on their level/gear/skill advantage to compete.

 

When my Sorc was level 15 I destroyed a 50 (Champ geared) Sage that is in my Repub side guild. I always knew she was bad, and a smack talker that just rushed to 50 to stomp newbs, but this entirely proved my point. 1v1 she can't stand against anyone that is on a level playing field. Pathetic.

 

I'm glad for the 50's bracket, but also think they need to just pull expertise right out, so the game is based on skill not some special grinded out stat. (that they got from farming newbs)