Sumpfheini Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 yeah their cc and surviability is over the top, no way a melee has any chance agains a half decent sorc/sage. 6k shield, down-> 3s mezz, recast 6k shield, knockback w. snare, 30m stun, slow, channeled slow, incredible speed. I am the best equipped Operative on my Server and our burst ist supposed to be very hard (some say over the top) but there is no way to kill a sorc with either shield or cc break up who knows to pvp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byteresistor Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 waaaaaaaay to OP simple silution 1) reduce time of their DoT (5 sec DoT or 7 sec is reasonable they will have to recast and spend mana etc) 2) triple or quadriple the CD of their ******* sheild Done Ah yes... the age old solution... completely destroy PvE performance to adress PvP issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) Lets also not forget that sorcs/sages are the best warzone healers, if not the best healing class period. It's so balanced when I'm healing my *** off as a trooper almost nonstop, and my equally geared guildie can just run in, hit group heal a few times, and die, and STILL beat me by 150k healing. But I'm just bad obviously, and need to l2p or something, right? Edited January 14, 2012 by Parrothead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neocoma Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Sorcs/Sages are fine. This game isnt about pvp balance. Deal with it. Or reroll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daex Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 You missed the point. I am able to read tooltips. The problem is you failed to understand that i over exaggerated the armor penetration values to make clear that the difference between armor classes is lliterally non existent. Each class has a good number of abilites with totally ignore the armor value or shieds combined that with the vast armor penetration modifiers some classes get and the armor class itself gets very unimportant. In the grand scheme it just doesn't matter if you have 8% overall reduction more or not. You're just being ridiculous and complicating every single logical argument thrown at you. This is just another of 1000 SORCEReRS ARE OP NERFFF posts just making forum a garbage can basically. In fact class balance is mostly quite good in PvP and anyone with half brain can see that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSusie Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Well at least Sorc have alot of different buttons to hit, that's something I guess. The debuff you get from your shield really should just be much longer. Like 90+ seconds. Work the ability to lower the debuff back to it's original duration length somewhere deeper into the healing tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheneria Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) sorc/sage is the most underpowerd class once most people are at level cap and geared. everyone who is complaining about them should first hit 50 and gear up, then we talk again. Edited January 14, 2012 by Sheneria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquinom Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 lol shield needs no change. it absorbs roughly 3000 damage (with 20% bonus added) which is like 1 crit from most classes, you need to get some help if the shield is that big of an issue for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sindorin Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Wow. Can we go down the list as to what abilities and skills in the BH or OP tree are overpowered? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soazak Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Sorcs/Sages are currently the most dominant class in Warzones. Their range, utility, and baseline defense from their Absorption shield create a problematic class in a PvP environment. Let's take a look at the utility a Sorceror/Sage has with no talent points spent: Best mitigation ability in the game (Shield) A 30-yd channeled nuke that applies a constant 50% Slow AoE Knockback Short duration 150% Speed boost 6s 50% Slow Force Dispel Whirlwind Ranged Interupt Extrication - Ability to pull a teammate to current location Instant 4second stun Even without some of these over-the-top abilities, Sorcs/Sages were already the most mobile ranged DPS in the game. Relying on instant and short-cast DOTs and a 30m instant channeled ability that slows by 50% gives sorcerors unparalleled kiting tools. Force slow on top of all this provides an instant low-damage dot that keeps a 50% slow up. For starters, Shield is the strongest mitigation tool in the game and can be cast on more than one person. It counteracts their reliance on light armor. Some of the shared inquisitor/consular abilities are too much on the Sorc/Sage but are necessary on the shadow/assassin. Overload fits the Sorceror kit very well, especially with a talented snare at the end of the knockback. Force speed on top of this is overkill. Overload and the slow from both Force Lightning and Force Slow are strong enough kiting tools. Sorcerors aren't sitting ducks in melee range either, as they are less cast-reliant than Snipers and Mercenaries, both of whom rely much more heavily on casted abilities than Sorcerors. The two uncharacteristic tools are both Force Speed and Jolt. Sorcerors are the only ranged class with an actual interupt. Mercenaries and Commandos have no answer to this, and the class already has strong ways of dealing with PvP healers (Whirlwind, Electrocute, Overload). These two abilities are too much control for a kit that is already loaded with unparalleled control tools. Sorcerors'/Sages' damage is fine. Having a Short CD incredible speed boost plus a ranged interupt pushes their control past the limits of balance. Support class has support? Oh, and you missed one, the insta dot has a snare if healing specced Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejaga Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I just switched from Sage Seer to Sage Balance because the healing mechanic for Sages is terrible unless you have a tank to sit on top of you and Guard you all day. You have much, much, much less control in the healing tree. As a healer, if I had one decent melee on me, I was basically shut down (maybe I could toss out some shields and my weak *** hot, but forget about my 1.5-2.5 second cast time abilities). Sure, you can force speed, use one stun, maybe run around a pillar and buy yourself a bit of time using lots of CD's, but for the most part, you had very little control. Sage healing in PvP, unless you have solid support, is not fun. But as Balance, I feel like I have an incredible amount of control. It's partly due to the use of pebble toss, which I rarely used as a healer. But abilities like Force Sever (the short CD, 2-sec root) are absolutely amazing for crowd control. Also, our 8-second mez is instant in the Balance tree. Love it. A single melee on me is a joke now, and fighting multiples is now very possible with the extra CC I get in Balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khri Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 yeah their cc and surviability is over the top, no way a melee has any chance agains a half decent sorc/sage. 6k shield, down-> 3s mezz, recast 6k shield, knockback w. snare, 30m stun, slow, channeled slow, incredible speed. I am the best equipped Operative on my Server and our burst ist supposed to be very hard (some say over the top) but there is no way to kill a sorc with either shield or cc break up who knows to pvp. How did we go from a 3k shield to a 6k shield? You can't even get a 6k shield, or even close with even the best gear. At level 50, Static Barrier absorbs 1162 + 327% of Force Healing Bonus before talents. With the Lightning tree talent "Lightning Barrier", this puts the absorption at around 3200 damage in Rakata operations gear, 12-15% of the max HP of a similarly geared tank. Many Sorcs you face will do considerably less. Some will do more. I was unable to find how much Force Healing bonus players have in PVP gear sets, I am ASSUMING, BM set is about same as Rakata OP's gear. Not to mention the fact that. PVP is almost always balanced around group play, not solo play. As a Sorc, and a healing sorc at that. I get focus'd down all the time, and there are classes, that when they actually play their class correctly, blow through me like I don't even exist. My whole guild, which does nothing but PVP all day long, agrees that Marauders are beasts in pvp, but they can be difficult to play as their playstyle is cumbersome. They also agree that Mercs suck in pvp, as dps, but not as Healers. Don't know if that's true from personal experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHRISGG Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Sorcs/Sages are currently the most dominant class in Warzones. You know how you can tell a player isn't good? When they say this and they actually mean it unironically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugarpill Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) waaaaaaaay to OP simple silution 1) reduce time of their DoT (5 sec DoT or 7 sec is reasonable they will have to recast and spend mana etc) 2) triple or quadriple the CD of their ******* sheild Done What? Have you ever been HIT by a Sorc DoT? It's PATHETIC. 200-400 dmg. And Sorcs can only reuse the shield on themselves every 20s, not every time the skill comes up (~5s). At 50, in gear, I'd argue Sorcs are actually one of the weaker classes. However, I feel that that is mostly due to the other classes just blowing Sorc damage out of the water (6-10k Critting Ops versus my 1-2.5k Crits as a 50 Sorc). If this was fixed, Sorc damage would actually be more on-par with everyone else. All of our CC (Electrocute and Whirlwind) are on 1m CDs, and if you spec into it, only THEN can you get instant Whirlwind. Until then it's a long cast time that is practically useless. Force Speed is a 30s CD, which is an eternity if you're trying to kite a melee on you. Force Slow is the only instant snare we get (FL is channeled, so we HAVE to stand in one place like sitting ducks), and it's on a 12s CD with a 6s snare, so there are 6 seconds where the target we are kiting isn't snared. Furthermore, don't Guardians/Sentinels/Juggernauts/Marauders get Charge, allowing them to leap to their target? I believe this is also a temporary "stun," or at least it feels like one in PvP because your character temporarily STOPS MOVING when someone uses it on you. Simply put, a good meleer can rip Sorcs APART. At 50, I get literally torn to SHREDS by a geared meleer and there isn't much I can do (save for CCing and running like a chicken to a clump of allies or behind or underneath something), because my only real damage is Force Lightning, which requires I stand still. The only thing I can do is kite in circles, spamming Force Slow, my crappy DoTs, Shock, and when I can, Electrocute to get a FL channel off, Overload if they get too close (which can easily be negated by force charging to me since it only knocks people a couple meters), Force Speed if it is up, etc. Our on-the-move damage REALLY isn't that high. Death Field is nice, but only available to Madness Sorcs, and it is on a CD. We have to be stationary to do any real damage to people. And as for the shield people complain about -- at 50, it really isn't that big of an issue. It helps for the first couple seconds of a fight, but after that I'm basically naked. Most classes CC me and just destroy my bubble while my character stands there helplessly. I'd also argue that if you strip Sorcs of some of their utility, you'd be screwing us in solo PvE 25+, when Khem Val becomes extremely squishy and mobs start hitting harder. I use a very geared Ashara in PvE, and even I had issues with multiple silvers/gold mobs at times, just because they hit like freight trains compared to me. Let's just say I got a lot of kiting and medpac practice. Edited January 14, 2012 by Sugarpill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allfader Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) sorc/sage is the most underpowerd class once most people are at level cap and geared. everyone who is complaining about them should first hit 50 and gear up, then we talk again. I actually laughed out loud at this. Underpowered? lmao Are you serious with this? Or just trolling? Sorcs/Sages are the ONLY class I've seen put up almost 700K damage. I don't buy that they need to be nerfed, but you need a realistic argument if you want to defend your class. Edited January 15, 2012 by Meluna insult Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregoriusMaximus Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 sorc/sage is the most underpowerd class once most people are at level cap and geared. everyone who is complaining about them should first hit 50 and gear up, then we talk again. This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bejita Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) must agree that the sorcs/sages are more than a little over the top in warzones especially hutball im so happy when i join a huttball match to see half my team being sorcs and assassins because i know its going to be a easy win for me and ill get my dailies done quickly, the amount of speed and control these classes get whill also being the most highly survivable classes up their with tanks is rediculous, why is it my merc healer only has half the tools of a sorc but has even worse healing and less of ANYTHING compared to a sorc? there just isent and will never be enough counters to all the sorcs utility in the game, it needs to be dumbed down for pvp and some of the love needs to be spread around to the other classes even if the sorc doesnt have the biggest numbers, they have what matters in pvp and thats CC and mobility, in fact the sorc can easily heal through any classes burst in the game including the OP operatives Edited January 14, 2012 by Bejita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veyl Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) I actually laughed out loud at this. Underpowered? lmao Are you serious with this? Or just trolling? Sorcs/Sages are the ONLY class I've seen put up almost 700K damage. I don't buy that they need to be nerfed, but you need a realistic argument if you want to defend your class. The only sorc/sage doing this is one that is continually casting Storm + Chain lightning proc into a group of idiots who are all bunched together and they have heal bots protecting them giving the opportunity to stack damage meters. must agree that the sorcs/sages are more than a little over the top in warzones especially hutball im so happy when i join a huttball match to see half my team being sorcs and assassins because i know its going to be a easy win for me and ill get my dailies done quickly, the amount of speed and control these classes get whill also being the most highly survivable classes up their with tanks is rediculous, why is it my merc healer only has half the tools of a sorc but has even worse healing and less of ANYTHING compared to a sorc? there just isent and will never be enough counters to all the sorcs utility in the game, it needs to be dumbed down for pvp and some of the love needs to be spread around to the other classes even if the sorc doesnt have the biggest numbers, they have what matters in pvp and thats CC and mobility, in fact the sorc can easily heal through any classes burst in the game including the OP operatives Rofl, what? Can easily heal through any classes burst?? hahahahaahh. These forums are hilarious. Edited January 15, 2012 by Meluna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenmuir Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Sorcs/Sages are currently the most dominant class in Warzones. Their range, utility, and baseline defense from their Absorption shield create a problematic class in a PvP environment. Let's take a look at the utility a Sorceror/Sage has with no talent points spent: Best mitigation ability in the game (Shield) A 30-yd channeled nuke that applies a constant 50% Slow AoE Knockback Short duration 150% Speed boost 6s 50% Slow Force Dispel Whirlwind Ranged Interupt Extrication - Ability to pull a teammate to current location Instant 4second stun Just to compare to the other Ranged DPS/Healer Class(Commando/Mercenary): Shield(Insta cast heal, awesome scaling, appliable to others, run speed buff(talented)) -> nothing aoe knockback(20s cooldown, 8m range), with talents immoblizes for up to 5s, unlimited targets -> aoe knockback(30s(20s talented) cooldown, 4m range(8m talented), with 4s slow, max 5 targets speed boost -> nothing 10m 6s slow -> nothing 10m Ranged Interupt -> nothing Extrication -> nothing 4s stun 60s cooldown(50s talented), deals damage -> 4s stun 60s cooldown, no damage 3s 50% channeled slow -> nothing or 25 pts in gunnery for 50% channeld slow force armor aoe knockback(talented) -> stock strike single target knockback(talented) 20% alacrity -> nothing in combat rez -> nothing That's a lot of nothing that the other ranged dps/healer class gets. It's also nice that i get to spend talent points to make my abilities have the same effects that sage/sorc get base line. The only thing that commando/mercenary gets base line that sage/sorc doesn't is a 12second 25% damage reduction with a 2 minute cooldown. Your opponent would have to do 12k damage or more in 12seconds for that to be better. The downside is that reactive shield has a 2 minute cooldown, compared to the 20s cooldown on force armor and reactive shield can not be cast on other people. On armor: Most dps classes have ~50% armor reduction, plus the penetration from accuracy, or deal elemental/internal damage, so to say that 30% mitigation vs 15% mitigation is meaningful is about as truthful as saying that sorc/sage has better defense due to having twice the base avoidance chance(10% vs 5%). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dannyj_ Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Everybody crying about this class should lvl and get gear Marauder > Sorc Juggernaut > sorc Operative > sorc Scoundrel > sorc Assasin > sorc Some above , you have a good chance against if you catch them before they catch you... But i can guarantee you , a good marauder / jugg / assasin will destroy any sorc equaly geared at 50 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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