People who ninja for their companions

[HexHammer]

Why is it worse?

 

it has been proven that the more you offer, the more greedy players become. The only thing 'need' does is inform others that you need the item.

 

This has fostered the whole "you don't need it more than me" type arguments and this one, you cannot (like anyone can dictate) need for your companion.

 

Players somehow believe that they as a player have more right to the loot than my companion if they press 'need'.

 

By removing the 'need' option. It is a completely fair and level playing field. If you roll and you win great, if you roll and lose, there is next time.

 

It does not have to be like how wow did it at all. Because how wow did it suits your argument, does not make it fact.

You don't comprehend a single thing.

 

In WoW Blizzard implemented a game mechanics that didn't allow players to need on gear they didn't have as primary. Thus a paladin couldn't need on cloth gear, which in ToR terms would mean that a Sith Juggernaut wouldn't be able to need on gear with Cunning on it, which happend to me recently when I was on my IA alt, and a Juggernaut would need on my gear, because he thought he could use Cunning gear.

[Setanian]

You don't comprehend a single thing.

 

In WoW Blizzard implemented a game mechanics that didn't allow players to need on gear they didn't have as primary. Thus a paladin couldn't need on cloth gear, which in ToR terms would mean that a Sith Juggernaut wouldn't be able to need on gear with Cunning on it, which happend to me recently when I was on my IA alt, and a Juggernaut would need on my gear, because he thought he could use Cunning gear.

 

Id only we were playing WoW.. However, we're not..

[WutsInAName]

Isn't this exciting, do tell me what you are doing that a dps isn't? Are you doing your rotation to the best of your abilities while responding to boss mechanics? Isn't that what a dps does? You seem to view dps as some kind of mindless animal that doesn't know anything past what you have come down from your divine mountain to tell them.

 

I have walked a mile in your shoes son. I know exactly what DPS role is, it seems you do not or you would not compare having to respond to boss mechanics. If you think 'DONT STAND IN THE FIRE' is a boss mechanic your totally backwards. Try timing your CD to a metoer stike etc sometime and if you goof up you get one shotted and raid wipes and complains. Or how about tanking with an OT and cooridinating when each person takes the aggro to let those stacks of 'kill you if i get to X' wear off.

 

It is apples and oranges buddy.

 

Or Try this one:

 

How come in a 4m group in SWTOR the group have no problems at all continuing on if a DPS takes an unexpected or extended AFK. Do you think the same holds true for tank n healer roles?

Edited January 17, 2012 by WutsInAName

[Setanian]

You don't comprehend a single thing.

 

In WoW Blizzard implemented a game mechanics that didn't allow players to need on gear they didn't have as primary. Thus a paladin couldn't need on cloth gear, which in ToR terms would mean that a Sith Juggernaut wouldn't be able to need on gear with Cunning on it, which happend to me recently when I was on my IA alt, and a Juggernaut would need on my gear, because he thought he could use Cunning gear.

 

Sorry I missed something..

 

'Your' gear? it was never yours. It's yours when you win it. Until that time, you and everyone else have a right to stake a claim on it via a random roll.

 

What you want is, that because the gear matches your class, that other people should bow and leave it to you, thereby, offering to allow you to get it by default.

 

The problem is; People here have claimed that if the other players do not offer it up to you and decide to stake a claim, they are ninjas, and worse, they claim they have no right to stake that claim in the first place.

[BlueRahja]

It is apples and oranges buddy.[/Quote]

 

You move the boss, dps has to move with you.

 

You hit some stupid cd to stop yourself from dying, dps has to do interrupts to stop you from dying.

 

When your job gets harder, so does theirs. I can tell you aren't very good at what you do though, because any raiding requires you pay attention. And you just said you walked a mile in my shoes, and then talked about dps. I said I was heals, always have been. That means while im sitting around sipping my juice and clicking 4 buttons with my eyes crossed, I sometimes watch whats going on, and kiddo, you really are buying into your own hype. Just another product of WoW.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Notannos
rude

[yuffu]

Hey i have 6 companions all needing different stuff, can i roll need on everything then?

[BlueRahja]

Sure can!

[WutsInAName]

 

You hit some stupid cd to stop yourself from dying, dps has to do interrupts to stop you from dying.

 

When your job gets harder, so does theirs. I can tell you aren't very good at what you do though, because any raiding requires you pay attention. And you just said you walked a mile in my shoes, and then talked about dps. I said I was heals, always have been. That means while im sitting around sipping my juice and clicking 4 buttons with my eyes crossed, I sometimes watch whats going on, and kiddo, you really are buying into your own hype. Just another product of WoW.

 

 

 

/facepalm

 

Did you just compare timing a CD to an interupt(when the tank themselves have to do this half the time because 10+ dps do actually miss it, as a WOW DK i did 100% of my interupts to, thx mind blast).

Edited January 17, 2012 by Notannos
rude quote

[LogicalPremise]

Can we get less flaming and ePeen in this please, and discuss some basics?

 

Someone mentioned the point that some people roll need because they don't understand how the gear works -- a tank rolling on cunning gear because he honestly thinks he can use it.

 

Does limiting peoples flexibility really "improve the game" or is it just about what benefits each of us personally?

 

Because if it is the latter you are espousing Eldren's manifest vitae, even if you think need for companions is wrong.

[LogicalPremise]

The ones getting upset aren't largely doing so because they're such proponents of broad altruism that their very cores are wounded, they're getting upset because they'd be upset in that moment that someone got something they wanted for a reason they don't think should have been allowed.

 

My upset stems directly from my own personal applique of "altruism reaps unexpected benefits". But I do tend to agree, and the ... tenor of some of the responses bear that out. If people were outraged due to the fact that it will make the game less about having fun grouping and more about worrying how others will deal with loot, that would be one thing. But far, far too many responses are more about epeening crying over the fact that they deserve their lootz, which I could care less about.

 

My research isn't really intended to go "after your point" but to place some level of actual fact into a whirlwind of personal choice and opinion.

[Jopster]

You sir are so wrong it is not even funny. Tanking is most complex of the 3 roles hand down. Ask anyone who has effectivly run top end raids in various products and every single one will agree. You have to manage aggro, watch positioning, turn the mobs, move from fire/aoe, time your CD's, taunt from MT to OT at stacks of X etc etc. Conversly if a DPS misses or uses his CD at the wrong time raid does not wipe.

 

DPS can literally watch pr0n as long as they time and keep rotaion going.....mmm trained monkey anyone.

 

Yeah I have allready tanked high end content in most previous mmo`s and I do agree with turning the bosses, mechanics, moving from fire/AoE, cooldowns, taunting back and forth etc.

 

A good dps or a good healer also has to pay attention to boss mechanics, interrupt, avoid fire/AoE, good use of cooldowns, positioning, manage aggro and play well.

 

Any good player can play any class and role and be good at it

 

I find it funny that you talk about high end raiding and still think that it is possible in any game with bad dps players. Progress raiding and hardmode raiding requires all parts of a raid to be good at their jobs and do it as flawless as possible.

 

Only difference in this game is the lack of dps meter and combat log making it a bit harder to spot a dps not doing the required dps, all other aspects will still show like dying to mechanics, bad positioning, missing an interrupt if you are the dedicated interrupter etc.

 

But by reading your posts I assume you raid with companions and clear everything with ease?

 

Anyway I am done replying to you because wasting time on bad players is a waste of time both ingame and on the forums

[WutsInAName]

This explains everything.

 

Yup when logic fails turn to insults, bravo

 

I would rebuttle it but then I also like to act my age.

[Urgas]

If I can click the button it isn't ninjaing. Need is Need, RNG is RNG, Tears are Tears.

[WutsInAName]

Yeah I have allready tanked high end content in most previous mmo`s and I do agree with turning the bosses, mechanics, moving from fire/AoE, cooldowns, taunting back and forth etc.

 

A good dps or a good healer also has to pay attention to boss mechanics, interrupt, avoid fire/AoE, good use of cooldowns, positioning, manage aggro and play well.

 

Any good player can play any class and role and be good at it

 

I find it funny that you talk about high end raiding and still think that it is possible in any game with bad dps players. Progress raiding and hardmode raiding requires all parts of a raid to be good at their jobs and do it as flawless as possible.

 

Only difference in this game is the lack of dps meter and combat log making it a bit harder to spot a dps not doing the required dps, all other aspects will still show like dying to mechanics, bad positioning, missing an interrupt if you are the dedicated interrupter etc.

 

But by reading your posts I assume you raid with companions and clear everything with ease?

 

Anyway I am done replying to you because wasting time on bad players is a waste of time both ingame and on the forums

 

 

I agree 100% that in progression raiding DPS needs to be on thier game, this is the way these encounters are designed. HOWEVER in SWTOR progression does not exist yet and hardmodes are puggable so is irrelevent to the discussion. My point is currently in SWTOR all DPS classes are being carried. This is truth.

[SpikeRosered]

It's not a ninja if he can use it including the companion. Companions are part of the game so you might want to just get used to that fact. I know I won't hesitate even for a second to need on a item for my companions.

 

You are mad. The same could be said for your off-spec in WoW. If someone had said that they "needed" it for their off spec I would ***** them out for the rest of the dungeon.

 

Same goes here.

[Jiraiya_Goketsu]

Tough one really. Should the player get 1st dibs? Imo yes. The player should take priority over a companion, people don't raid with companions. That said, you PUG ya take ya chances.

[BlueRahja]

Yup when logic fails turn to insults, bravo

 

I would rebuttle it but then I also like to act my age.

 

You weren't supposed to "rebuttle" this time. You said you were done the last time. And logic is bang on. You have no experience past WoW, you played a DK and submit to the DK mindset, which explains the terrible way you treat others. This last post was your "rebuttle", it just didn't have a link to a funny song.

 

But, we go in circles. If you want to send me a private message, that's cool we can jibe each other back and forth a bit, I'm all for it. Clearly nothing I say will bring you down from "I am a tank" mountain. The good ones are humble though, FYI.

 

edit- hahaha, oh man....low

Edited January 17, 2012 by BlueRahja

[profaneascension]

Can we get less flaming and ePeen in this please, and discuss some basics?

 

Someone mentioned the point that some people roll need because they don't understand how the gear works -- a tank rolling on cunning gear because he honestly thinks he can use it.

 

Does limiting peoples flexibility really "improve the game" or is it just about what benefits each of us personally?

 

Because if it is the latter you are espousing Eldren's manifest vitae, even if you think need for companions is wrong.

 

It's unfortunate that sometimes the people on our side get baited into flame wars and ePeen contests, but if my opinion on the matter places me in the latter category, then so be it.

 

All I seek is to maximize the value from any given piece of gear, and in my eyes that means player characters should always have priority over companions (I've written lots of other posts explaining why). It has nothing to do with personal gain, despite the ferocity with which the other camp accuses us of having such a desire. I let the game's RNG determine what type of item drops from a boss, and then assign the item to the person who can use it best, which means it won't be me 75% of the time. Somehow, the other camp can twist that into my being greedy.

 

Again, I'm not the one limiting people's flexibility; I just see the failure of maximizing the value of an item as being detrimental to the quality of the game. If it can be proven that giving a piece of heavy armor to a light armor wearer is good for the game, then I'm all for it.

[SuperValkryie]

I honestly can't believe people are even arguing for needing on something they personally don't need.

 

It's simple as this:

 

People are taught they are special and unique invidividual by there teachers and parents, and that they are a great gift to society. (********, you are all *********** worthless until proven otherwise).

 

Society has raised a bunch of selfish ******es who only look out for themselves. Common respect for your fellow man is gone.

 

Here's looking out for yourself!

 

***********.

[Eldren]

It's unfortunate that sometimes the people on our side get baited into flame wars and ePeen contests, but if my opinion on the matter places me in the latter category, then so be it.

 

All I seek is to maximize the value from any given piece of gear, and in my eyes that means player characters should always have priority over companions (I've written lots of other posts explaining why). It has nothing to do with personal gain, despite the ferocity with which the other camp accuses us of having such a desire. I let the game's RNG determine what type of item drops from a boss, and then assign the item to the person who can use it best, which means it won't be me 75% of the time. Somehow, the other camp can twist that into my being greedy.

 

Again, I'm not the one limiting people's flexibility; I just see the failure of maximizing the value of an item as being detrimental to the quality of the game. If it can be proven that giving a piece of heavy armor to a light armor wearer is good for the game, then I'm all for it.

 

PA, you seem reasonably intelligent, and if there's a perception of animosity between us, I'd like to remove it. I go for the throat in a debate, to be sure, but it's rarely intended to be personal.

 

Your stated goal here gives me some insight into why we might not agree. I'll be honest enough to say I go into a PUG for personal gain. I do everything in my power to work well with the group and maximize my personal output for them. I try not to stand in the way of people getting what they want. But I also recognize that contested loot rolls are the norm, and people don't like losing rolls on stuff they want. That's what lies at the source of this unGodly-length thread: people don't like losing rolls, and they're trying to weight things in their favor however they can.

 

Guild runs aren't an issue, as people form guilds with like-minded individuals. But in PUGs, no one knows anyone else. They go their separate ways when they're done with the Flashpoint. It necessitates a certain degree of selfish behavior, because you won't see any upgrades at all if you aren't, and if your goal (as mine is) is to get upgrades, you're going to pursue the path of least resistance to that goal.

 

If your goal is to be part of a team and just help others out, that's cool, and if you're fine with incidental upgrades, that's cool as well. Me, I'm in there for upgrades. I prefer questing. I go into Flashpoints for a break from it, and to get some nice gear so I'm ready for greater challenges ahead.

 

And yes, that includes stuff for my companions.

[profaneascension]

PA, you seem reasonably intelligent, and if there's a perception of animosity between us, I'd like to remove it. I go for the throat in a debate, to be sure, but it's rarely intended to be personal.

 

I get the same rush out of a good debate, too, but no, I bear no grudge against anyone, even if they attack me personally. I'm actually glad when they do, because it means they had no recourse but to take a cheap shot at me. But just to be clear, there is no animosity between us.

 

Your stated goal here gives me some insight into why we might not agree. I'll be honest enough to say I go into a PUG for personal gain. I do everything in my power to work well with the group and maximize my personal output for them. I try not to stand in the way of people getting what they want. But I also recognize that contested loot rolls are the norm, and people don't like losing rolls on stuff they want. That's what lies at the source of this unGodly-length thread: people don't like losing rolls, and they're trying to weight things in their favor however they can.

 

I described my feelings on the matter using a gambling analogy in another thread. If a group goes into an FP with the mindset that everyone rolls only on an item that they can wear on their main character, then it's like betting against the house, because you're letting the game's RNG determine what type of loot drops. It eliminates the need for the players to roll against each other. No competition against other players, no drama. The chances of getting something are identical: there's a 25% chance that a boss will drop something you need, and there's a 25% that you'll win a roll against three other players. To me, there's no substantial difference in terms of chance---no weighting of the dice, as it were.

 

Our actual differences lie in what constitutes a needful opportunity. I know it's one of those slippery slope fallacies if I argue against companions being needful of gear from Flashpoints, since it is my contention that once the door is opened to companions, things like disassembling for mats, vendoring for credits and so on become valid rationales to press the Need button. All I really want to know is where to draw the line.

 

But, like you said, it all depends on the loot rules set forth by the group before starting the Flashpoint. Asking first is always the best policy. In that, we are in total agreement.

[Slteath]

It's unfortunate that sometimes the people on our side get baited into flame wars and ePeen contests, but if my opinion on the matter places me in the latter category, then so be it.

 

All I seek is to maximize the value from any given piece of gear, and in my eyes that means player characters should always have priority over companions (I've written lots of other posts explaining why). It has nothing to do with personal gain, despite the ferocity with which the other camp accuses us of having such a desire. I let the game's RNG determine what type of item drops from a boss, and then assign the item to the person who can use it best, which means it won't be me 75% of the time. Somehow, the other camp can twist that into my being greedy.

 

Again, I'm not the one limiting people's flexibility; I just see the failure of maximizing the value of an item as being detrimental to the quality of the game. If it can be proven that giving a piece of heavy armor to a light armor wearer is good for the game, then I'm all for it.

 

By far, i like your comment the most. The whole need and greed system is actually hoping that the community will use this tool to fairly distributing item. They are just all arguing what is fair to themselves.

and I agree with you that PC that can use the item > companion that can use the item.

 

Game theory, anyone? I only know a bit. But I think one of the theory is that, if everyone only think for themselves and try to be the best person in the game, then everyone lose, coz' everyone gets in each other's way. but if we work together and compromise a bit, everybody wins.

 

translate:

If everyone just think for themselves and try to roll Need get the best gear/money for their main and/or companion, then everyone lose.

 

that is taking the premise of PC gear benefit > companion gear benefit

[Havokk]

Some other questions to consider.

 

Should a Sage roll Need for a lightsaber against a Guardian?

 

Who should roll Need for a techstaff? A sniper rifle (Republic) or assault cannon (Imperial)?

 

Should a Sentinel roll Need for a second lightsaber against a Guardian?

 

 

 

Finally:

Why the heck does this game have this decade-old looting behaviour anyway?

 

Only one person can get any benefit from an item that drops. Whatever happens, three out of four people in a group are going to be deprived and unhappy. Why does the game have a mechanic that makes 3/4 of people unhappy?

[Palathas]

What I do and what everyone I choose to play with does is the only time you NEED is if it's an upgrade for the current character you are playing. Otherwise everything else is GREED. So if it's not an upgrade for your current character, even if it's a class item, you GREED.

[gurugeorge]

Need before greed is a fallacy. It always was, and always will be. It is nothing more than an agreement between like minded people. It was implemented as method of rolling dice to cater for the masses. It is not a rule, and never was a rule. For one very important reason. If I get to roll, it is my choice, not your, what choice I make. Anything else is a stripping by you, of my rights.

 

You keep using that word, I don't think it means what you think it means.

 

Rights are either something you have because of others' refraining behaviour (e.g. a general tacit agreement, or the taking on of a duty, to refrain from interfering with your actions in certain respects) or something that you have because of someone's fiat (say so - e.g. government grants you a privilege to behave in a certain way).

 

This is what the word traditionally means - roughly, a right is either a convention or a privilege.

 

You are using the word "right" in place of "power". Certainly, you have the power to do whatever you want in a computer game, within the lmits of what the devs make possible.

 

And you have the right, IN REAL LIFE, to play the game as you wish (people generally leave you to play computer games in whatever way you have the power to do so).

 

Neither of these , neither the society-given right nor the "god-given" power, can be affected by other peoples' actions (short of coming round to the house and putting a gun to your head, type of thing).

 

But neither of these is relevant to the discussion in hand. If you're feeling "stripped of your rights" by people merely disliking what you do, then you should just thumb your nose at them. Don't dress it up in rights talk, it just shows you don't know what you're talking about, and are trying to use words you don't understand to justify your behaviour. Don't try to justify it, just say "I don't care what others think, I'm just going to play the way I want".

 

All that's happening here is that people are trying to persuade you (or rather, an archetypal "ninja looter") to be reasonable, to be less self-centred, and to put yourself in others' shoes - specifically, those teammates whose toons objectively "need" (i.e whose stats would be better min-maxed by) an item more than your toon.

 

Again, think about it: why is the system in the game? It's not just some coder's random slip of the keyboard, is it? Obviously it is a rule - it's the Need/Greed rule. (A rule isn't something you can't avoid following - it precisely is something you can avoid following, although doing so may have consequences - such as, in this case, ostracism by the community.)

 

So why would BioWare put it in the game, and why are the words "Need" and "Greed" coded into the game in this way? (You do realise that precise text had to be input by someone at BioWare, right?)

Edited January 18, 2012 by gurugeorge